List of the "Problematic" units?

[MichaelCarmine]

5 minutes ago, armarnis said:

can heavy even reroll invuln saves? always considered it works only for the armor, as it says you may reroll armor saves no? maybe we play it wrong oO

No no no no, you are playing it right! ^^ It's just the Warders special rules, combined with their Stone Gauntlet RoW, that lets them reroll their 4++ =]

[SkimaskMohawk]

A fully stacked apothecary+heart unit fails about 5% of armour from blasts and 12.5%of invuls. You get a lot of hits on them, but they don't tend to convert too well. Bolters quite literally do more into them.

 

Best counter is to just refuse to play cheesy imperial fists lists though 

Edited April 3, 2023 by SkimaskMohawk

[Gore Crow]

16 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Best counter is to just refuse to play cheesy imperial fists lists though 

Or a Typhon! 

[SkimaskMohawk]

7 minutes ago, Gore Crow said:

Or a Typhon! 

 

Yea typhons *will* brute force their way through the invul stacking, and make even the armour save fairer to deal with.

 

[Fallen11]

On 2/27/2023 at 12:26 AM, MichaelCarmine said:

 

 

You (the examplary "you") choose Stone Gauntlet RoW.

Warders cost 225pts base - for this, you get a 10man unit, armed with Bolters(BS5), BoltPistols(BS5), Power Axe, Boarding Shield(5++), LD 8/9.

Also comes with Line, Heart of the Legion and Heavy.

You have to be in BaseContact with atleast 2 other models to receive a bonus to your Invul, so 5++ becomes 4++ - which is rerollable, as long as you are in unit coherency, even for models(with boarding shield) who have joined the unit! 

Also, if at least 3 models remain in the Unit and get charged, they receive a bonus of +1 to their WS, even for models who have joined the unit! 

 

So a Preator, for example, with Boarding Shield (which is a free ugrade), who has joined the unit gains a rerollable 3++, +1 to his WS (+2 if he has Solar Marshal WL trait...) if charged in CC. 

 

You put an apothecary in there, place them on an objective, now they have a 4++/4++/4+++ against anything up to str.7, 3+/3+/4++ against blasts up to str. 7, are stubborn with LD8/9, WS5 with PowerAxes when charged.

 

This is a Troops Unit! What the hell? 

 

Name me one Elite Unit, which can provide this amount and quality of protection.

 

 

 

How do you think they would fare vs 4 custodes + Knight Vestal. Did a quick math, and it didn't look good for 10 Warders vs 4 custodes + vestal..., add medic to warders and that's 1 more custode. They are also line and score.




After looking at Sister of silence as allies, they seem utterly bonkers when compared to legion equivalent for pts.

Marines pay 45pts for medic, sister pay 35pts, now what do you get for 10pts less you ask? Well, IC,BS5, WS5, 2W, 2++ and can join any unit, meaning even something like terminators or command squads. Oh, they can also give unit scout.

Sanctioners - 5 snipers with marked for death for 85pts? Yes please
Krole - 150pts chick that can solo any marine character/dreadnought/leviathan short of Primarch

Centaura - 55pts character with ex oblivio that can say to any model except primarch in btb, well, now you are WS1,have fun,lol
Silent judge - 55pts character that basically says, you can't react to our unit shooting or assault unless you are fearless/stubborn

Subjugators - 105pts bikes that will basically glue any death star or unit withouth primarch inside and make em M1,lol, good luck getting anywhere.

Troop tax you say for allies? Well, 5 sisters are 65pts so you pay even less than marines need to pay to ally with other marines, they can easily hide(easier to hide 5 than 10 models) and sit on objective.

 

[MichaelCarmine]

3 hours ago, Fallen11 said:

 

How do you think they would fare vs 4 custodes + Knight Vestal. Did a quick math, and it didn't look good for 10 Warders vs 4 custodes + vestal..., add medic to warders and that's 1 more custode. They are also line and score.




After looking at Sister of silence as allies, they seem utterly bonkers when compared to legion equivalent for pts.

Marines pay 45pts for medic, sister pay 35pts, now what do you get for 10pts less you ask? Well, IC,BS5, WS5, 2W, 2++ and can join any unit, meaning even something like terminators or command squads. Oh, they can also give unit scout.

Sanctioners - 5 snipers with marked for death for 85pts? Yes please
Krole - 150pts chick that can solo any marine character/dreadnought/leviathan short of Primarch

Centaura - 55pts character with ex oblivio that can say to any model except primarch in btb, well, now you are WS1,have fun,lol
Silent judge - 55pts character that basically says, you can't react to our unit shooting or assault unless you are fearless/stubborn

Subjugators - 105pts bikes that will basically glue any death star or unit withouth primarch inside and make em M1,lol, good luck getting anywhere.

Troop tax you say for allies? Well, 5 sisters are 65pts so you pay even less than marines need to pay to ally with other marines, they can easily hide(easier to hide 5 than 10 models) and sit on objective.

 

Well, first of all - if someone has to name Custodes as a good counter against a Legion Troop Unit, then that just further proofes my point! =]

 

Also lets do the math - lets say, 5 custodes (Guardian Spears) with knight vestal charge a unit of warders on an objective with apothecary. 

5 Custodes, thats 20 attacks base, +5 for charge, +5 for nemesis and (lets be generous) +5 attacks for reaping blow.

So 35 attacks, that hit on 4s - let's say 18 hit.

18 Hits, that wound on 2s - that's 15 wounds.

now cut that in half.

now cut it in half again.

now cut it in half again.

Thats the tripple 4up save.

now you've "wasted" 35 Custodes AP2 attacks, to kill 2 warders. 

 

now the retalliation!

8 remaining warders come to 9 attacks(sergeant +1) that hit on 4s - that's 4/5 hits, 2/3 wounds and likely a dead custodes.

 

warders lost 40pts, custodes 45pts.

And i didn't even account for 20 shots BS5 overwatch...

 

With the declining amount of attacks, the Custodes get the rounds after that, it would likely take them 5 rounds to whittle down that squad of warders.

 

so now exchange warders with cataphractii terminators for the same amount of points - 5 custodes (Guardian Spears) with knight vestal against 6 Cataphractii (thunder hammers).

5 Custodes - 20 Attacks base, +5 for charging.

20 attacks that hit on 3s - let's say 14 hits

wounding on 2s - thats 11/12 wounds

cut that in half, thats about 6 woudns and therefore 3 dead cataphractii.

they strike bak with 7 attacks that hit on 5s - thats 2 hits, likely 2 wounds - results in 4 wounds, where 3 go thru. 1 dead custodian. 

Cataphractii lost combat and traded 135 pts for 45pts.

( talk about Imperial Fist Cataphractii and we have 2 dead Custodes)

 

Custoded need about 2/3 rounds to kill all Cataphractii...

 

Where exactly "didn't it look good" for the warders? xD

 

But i'm sorry everyone, i really didn't want to start another discussion about Phalanx Warders... my bad!

 

 

Edit: To be fair, the only thing in the Liber Imperium that isn't bonkers, are the Solar Auxilia... xD

Edited April 4, 2023 by MichaelCarmine

[Fallen11]

Well, you just might outshoot those warders with custodes xD, always staying outside 12", and you have same number of shots, except your have shred and wound on 4+, and you have 2+ then 5++, while they wound on 5+ :p
In CC sister can tank 1 wound, extending life of 1 custode for another round, she also hits in cc.

 

[MichaelCarmine]

33 minutes ago, Fallen11 said:

Well, you just might outshoot those warders with custodes xD, always staying outside 12", and you have same number of shots, except your have shred and wound on 4+, and you have 2+ then 5++, while they wound on 5+ :p
In CC sister can tank 1 wound, extending life of 1 custode for another round, she also hits in cc.

 

10 shots on 2s, that's 8/9 hits, and with shred, about 6 wounds.

Now again - cut that in half, cut that in half again and again!

that's at the very best - maybe 1 dead Warder, 20 pts.

 

Again - 275 pts "wasted" to kill 1 warder for 20 pts...

 

I also didn't account for the attacks of the apothecary, so no worries. And i think 3 attacks that hit on 4+ with str3 do less wounds, than 3 attacks on 4+ with str. 4 and shred.

 

And i state again - to name a squad of Custodes a "counter" against a troops unit, when against nearly every other unit they are considered "overkill", further proofes my point. They are too tough for their points! =]

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Well, first of all - if someone has to name Custodes as a good counter against a Legion Troop Unit, then that just further proofes my point! =]

 

Also lets do the math - lets say, 5 custodes (Guardian Spears) with knight vestal charge a unit of warders on an objective with apothecary. 

5 Custodes, thats 20 attacks base, +5 for charge, +5 for nemesis and (lets be generous) +5 attacks for reaping blow.

So 35 attacks, that hit on 4s - let's say 18 hit.

18 Hits, that wound on 2s - that's 15 wounds.

now cut that in half.

now cut it in half again.

now cut it in half again.

Thats the tripple 4up save.

now you've "wasted" 35 Custodes AP2 attacks, to kill 2 warders. 

 

now the retalliation!

8 remaining warders come to 9 attacks(sergeant +1) that hit on 4s - that's 4/5 hits, 2/3 wounds and likely a dead custodes.

 

warders lost 40pts, custodes 45pts.

And i didn't even account for 20 shots BS5 overwatch...

 

With the declining amount of attacks, the Custodes get the rounds after that, it would likely take them 5 rounds to whittle down that squad of warders.

 

so now exchange warders with cataphractii terminators for the same amount of points - 5 custodes (Guardian Spears) with knight vestal against 6 Cataphractii (thunder hammers).

5 Custodes - 20 Attacks base, +5 for charging.

20 attacks that hit on 3s - let's say 14 hits

wounding on 2s - thats 11/12 wounds

cut that in half, thats about 6 woudns and therefore 3 dead cataphractii.

they strike bak with 7 attacks that hit on 5s - thats 2 hits, likely 2 wounds - results in 4 wounds, where 3 go thru. 1 dead custodian. 

Cataphractii lost combat and traded 135 pts for 45pts.

( talk about Imperial Fist Cataphractii and we have 2 dead Custodes)

 

Custoded need about 2/3 rounds to kill all Cataphractii...

 

Where exactly "didn't it look good" for the warders? xD

 

But i'm sorry everyone, i really didn't want to start another discussion about Phalanx Warders... my bad!

 

 

Edit: To be fair, the only thing in the Liber Imperium that isn't bonkers, are the Solar Auxilia... xD

 

Maths a bit off. Warders are ws4, leading to slightly more favour to the custodes.

 

Custodes slowly win combat over time, with the vestal mitigating stubborn for an early win (especially if she challenge snipes either character). But the thing is, warders' whole point is to make combats take forever. And it is. It's a pretty good example of how stacked their buffs are if custodes need to chip their way through ~2 models a round.

[MichaelCarmine]

9 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Maths a bit off. Warders are ws4, leading to slightly more favour to the custodes.

 

Custodes slowly win combat over time, with the vestal mitigating stubborn for an early win (especially if she challenge snipes either character). But the thing is, warders' whole point is to make combats take forever. And it is. It's a pretty good example of how stacked their buffs are if custodes need to chip their way through ~2 models a round.

not in the first round, their not. Lockstep gives them +1 to WS for the first round of combat, thats why i also included the +1 attack (Nemesis Bonus) per Custodes. =]

 

Edit: also forgot to include the vexilla, which ofcourse they would have. ^^

EditEdit: most people would also give the Apothecary a Powerweapon for 10 pts, so we could also factor in 3 more WS5 St5 AP2 attacks in the first round of combat...

Edited April 4, 2023 by MichaelCarmine

[SkimaskMohawk]

2 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

not in the first round, their not. Lockstep gives them +1 to WS for the first round of combat, thats why i also included the +1 attack (Nemesis Bonus) per Custodes. =]

 

Edit: also forgot to include the vexilla, which ofcourse they would have. ^^

EditEdit: most people would also give the Apothecary a Powerweapon for 10 pts, so we could also factor in 3 more WS5 St5 AP2 attacks in the first round of combat...

 

Serves me right for looking at rules right after waking up before coffee lol.

 

Either way, the math is basically 1 wound a round for the warders and 2 for the custodes; the latter will slowly grind them down and maybe hopefully break them off a ld 8 test. Stonewalling an equivalent amount of points of guardians is super good, especially considering that's the unit's role (as in, they're not supposed to be outputting big damage of their own). 

[Noserenda]

You do seem to have overlooked Sisters being Toughness 3, which is a significant drop, especially for instant death on most of the characters. Their army construction rules stop you cherry picking units in an allied detachment too. 

I am hoping one day we do get an FAQ for Vestals though, they just need the apothecary rule :cuss:. 

[Fallen11]

18 hours ago, Noserenda said:

You do seem to have overlooked Sisters being Toughness 3, which is a significant drop, especially for instant death on most of the characters. Their army construction rules stop you cherry picking units in an allied detachment too. 

I am hoping one day we do get an FAQ for Vestals though, they just need the apothecary rule :cuss:. 

them being S3 doens't really matter all that much when it's quite hard to get S6 sniping platforms unless you really prepare for them. Not really understanding your comment about army construction when they are your allies?

[Petitioner's City]

Do you guys ever email the faq email? It seems like a good thing to do and check if this is the case. Presumably if FW gets lots of emails asking this, they are more likely to look at it (the same with artillery, lack of brutal, cumbersome on knights, suggestion 3+ on contemptors, and any other common issue). 

[Bung]

1 hour ago, Petitioner's City said:

Do you guys ever email the faq email? It seems like a good thing to do and check if this is the case. Presumably if FW gets lots of emails asking this, they are more likely to look at it (the same with artillery, lack of brutal, cumbersome on knights, suggestion 3+ on contemptors, and any other common issue). 

But then people lose the fun in complaining on the public Internet.

[Petitioner's City]

Still the knight vestal hack doesn't match either fluff text for the unit (their job is to save fellow sisters), so it feels a bit unfluffy and also a very 30k form of the loyal 32!

[Noserenda]

2 hours ago, Fallen11 said:

them being S3 doens't really matter all that much when it's quite hard to get S6 sniping platforms unless you really prepare for them. Not really understanding your comment about army construction when they are your allies?

 

Because s6 in melee is fairly trivial to get? Not everything is sniping fyi especially for literally all the things that aren't characters. Toughness has always been expensive in points, which is why sisters are so much cheaper.

 

The army construction is if anything harsher on allies with one hq slot, if you take an oblivion hq, no bikes for you, same for silent judges and most of the melee units.

 

1 hour ago, Petitioner's City said:

Do you guys ever email the faq email? It seems like a good thing to do and check if this is the case. Presumably if FW gets lots of emails asking this, they are more likely to look at it (the same with artillery, lack of brutal, cumbersome on knights, suggestion 3+ on contemptors, and any other common issue). 

 

Yeah the FW teams have been notoriously reactive on the faq front :D they are apparently still pretending the sister list doesn't exist

[Petitioner's City]

9 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

Yeah the FW teams have been notoriously reactive on the faq front :D they are apparently still pretending the sister list doesn't exist

 

Yeah it's a very unreactive service, for sure - but if one never expects change, and doesn't actually submit data about game issues through FW's only public way of amassing that data, then we end up in a situation where FW have no justification or need to make those changes.

 

I do send a fair amount to them; I try to make the subject clear. I've realised too much text likely makes it harder to parse, and when it is more of an errata suggestion, i try to use comparative evidence and sources from the internet to substantiate why I might be writing if it isn't just a simple question. 

 

But honestly whenever one complains about something being trash, or being too strong, tell FW in a polite email with "questions about (UNIT X)" or similar. Otherwise they might never know that or know that you a player care about it.

[Noserenda]

Well ive sent another email, this one more conclusive as i just worked through the list and recalled things that have come up. Its not my first though and as yet nothing has come of it, not even a units PDF for the stuff they left out of the old list and more importantly, Rhinos! :D 

[OttoVonAwesome]

On 4/3/2023 at 3:23 AM, MichaelCarmine said:

No no no no, you are playing it right! ^^ It's just the Warders special rules, combined with their Stone Gauntlet RoW, that lets them reroll their 4++ =]

Well that's just obviously busted. Nothing should be re-rolling invulnerable saves ever. Let's see if the new campaign book adresses that.

[Fallen11]

20 hours ago, Noserenda said:

 

Because s6 in melee is fairly trivial to get? Not everything is sniping fyi especially for literally all the things that aren't characters. Toughness has always been expensive in points, which is why sisters are so much cheaper.

 

The army construction is if anything harsher on allies with one hq slot, if you take an oblivion hq, no bikes for you, same for silent judges and most of the melee units.

 

 

Yeah the FW teams have been notoriously reactive on the faq front :D they are apparently still pretending the sister list doesn't exist

Well, when you join sister Vestal in a unit od 10 custodes and she gives em 5+++ for 35pts and scout on top of that, unless you are gonna snipe her, it's kinda hard to dislodge her from unit, no?
S6 ap2 is trivial to get in melee? Once again, she is with custodes for example, and unless you can precision hit her in cc, which once again, isn't trivial, she doesn't care rly, no?

1 HQ as allies is just fine, bring 55pts sister with ex oblivio which more or less completely nulifies enemy leviathan/dreadnough or character in cc, what's not to like about that? 

 

[MichaelCarmine]

2 hours ago, Fallen11 said:

Well, when you join sister Vestal in a unit od 10 custodes and she gives em 5+++ for 35pts and scout on top of that, unless you are gonna snipe her, it's kinda hard to dislodge her from unit, no?
S6 ap2 is trivial to get in melee? Once again, she is with custodes for example, and unless you can precision hit her in cc, which once again, isn't trivial, she doesn't care rly, no?

1 HQ as allies is just fine, bring 55pts sister with ex oblivio which more or less completely nulifies enemy leviathan/dreadnough or character in cc, what's not to like about that? 

Yeah, but do you know, how many "snipers" are in the game, now that they got buffed to infinity?

I mean, i have a squad of seekers for every one of my legions now.

 

Also, they have one weakness - they have to begin the game as a unit. Meaning they have to be attached to the unit that you want them in, in your first gameturn.

If you don't have the first turn and your opponent knows, what they are and what they do, then that unit is likely not present in your first turn.

 

Also - they not only give bonuses! Attaching a Vestal to a squad of Custodes robs them of their Skirmisher subtype. So no 3" unit coherrency and no +1 to cover-saves which makes them more vulnerable to blast weapons like Plasma Cannons, Scorpii, Typhons,...

And since they need to walk up to their targets, loosing their cover bonus is quite bad. Ofcourse they receive a FnP, which is good, but it dampens the bonus quite a bit.

 

S6 en masse is actually really easy to get - for example, you can have a squad of 20 despoilers, all armed with a heavy chainblade - thats nasty!

But not at I5, which means, that the Custodes will annihalate the unit, before they even get to swing... and that's why most people will try to snipe them out.

Because Custodes cannot outshoot anyone, thats why they need to get into CC, and thats why it won't be easy to hide her from "snipers".

[SkimaskMohawk]

I think we're getting a bit far afield lol.

 

Fully buffed warders in stone gauntlet are an absolute defensive unit that can stonewall even the most outrageous output from guardians. They usually require a vast overcommitment  to remove, similar to every other unit that can falls into the problematic category.

 

Theory countering the proposed matchup with other theoretical units is a path that generally leads nowhere, as both sides tack on more of their army and warp tactics to allow their initial premise.

[Bung]

Doesnt change my view that Stone Gauntlet and the Warders are predictable.

 

Warders will move to an objective to get their buffs and do their jobs.

 

Same goes for the rest of the army, there is no Deep Strike, Outflank etc. you have to counter play.

 

[Noserenda]

4 hours ago, Fallen11 said:

Well, when you join sister Vestal in a unit od 10 custodes and she gives em 5+++ for 35pts and scout on top of that, unless you are gonna snipe her, it's kinda hard to dislodge her from unit, no?
S6 ap2 is trivial to get in melee? Once again, she is with custodes for example, and unless you can precision hit her in cc, which once again, isn't trivial, she doesn't care rly, no?

1 HQ as allies is just fine, bring 55pts sister with ex oblivio which more or less completely nulifies enemy leviathan/dreadnough or character in cc, what's not to like about that? 

 

Not really, like i mentioned, they are still pretty squishy and snipers/ID are everywhere. 

Oblivion knights also fairly squishy, maybe try to keep your characters away from the duellist character? I have no sympathy for people having a bad time with dreadnoughts for obvious reasons :D 

And yeah, seeing as you seem to be struggling to get the point, if you take an Oblivion knight, you cant take a Silent judge, or Jetbikes. You cant do a one sided whinge about the whole army as allies when you cant take all that in one army, almost like its designed that way or something.