List of the "Problematic" units?

[MichaelCarmine]

1 hour ago, Bung said:

Doesnt change my view that Stone Gauntlet and the Warders are predictable.

 

Warders will move to an objective to get their buffs and do their jobs.

 

Same goes for the rest of the army, there is no Deep Strike, Outflank etc. you have to counter play.

 

Yeah, i think nobody ever contradicted, that they are predictable.

We always said, that the first thing they do, is to claim an objective, stay there and secure it for you (the example you). The problem with them is, that when the opponent wants to claim that objective himself, he has to remove the Warders from said objective - that's where the prpblems begin. One is more likely to, at most, deny an objective, then to claim it, when Warders are the ones sitting on it.

And when the rest of the IF army outshoots you with their armywide superior BS when shooting anithing auto/bolt, then thats a problem. 

 

Edit: And while Warders are the one unit, that can hold an objective against even custodes, the Huscarl are the one Unit, that Custodes actually might be scared about - WS5/6, S10 AP1 power-fisting, 2+/3++, HQ(!!!) Terminators.

While i thought, my Deliverers where overpowerd - against Huscarls, they look like a bad joke...

 

Yeah, IFs really are absolutely balanced and nobody should have anything to complain about them...

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2023 by MichaelCarmine

[Bung]

2 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Yeah, i think nobody ever contradicted, that they are predictable.

We always said, that the first thing they do, is to claim an objective, stay there and secure it for you (the example you). The problem with them is, that when the opponent wants to claim that objective himself, he has to remove the Warders from said objective - that's where the prpblems begin. One is more likely to, at most, deny an objective, then to claim it, when Warders are the ones sitting on it.

And when the rest of the IF army outshoots you with their armywide superior BS when shooting anithing auto/bolt, then thats a problem. 

 

Edit: And while Warders are the one unit, that can hold an objective against even custodes, the Huscarl are the one Unit, that Custodes actually might be scared about - WS5/6, S10 AP1 power-fisting, 2+/3++, HQ(!!!) Terminators.

While i thought, my Deliverers where overpowerd - against Huscarls, they look like a bad joke...

 

Yeah, IFs really are absolutely balanced and nobody should have anything to complain about them...

 

 

 

 

Superior BS as Fist? You make me laugh.

You only get the most Basic Weapons boosted.

If you want something more serious Like Lascannons IF arent better than any other Legion.

 

The more i read your comments, the more i think you havent played a single game this Edition and just regurgitate OTC and others you heard in the Internet.

 

[MichaelCarmine]

2 hours ago, Bung said:

 

Superior BS as Fist? You make me laugh.

You only get the most Basic Weapons boosted.

If you want something more serious Like Lascannons IF arent better than any other Legion.

 

The more i read your comments, the more i think you havent played a single game this Edition and just regurgitate OTC and others you heard in the Internet.

 

Dude... for once in your life, read the whole comment, before hitting reply... xD

I specificaly wrote, superior BS with anything Auto/Bolter.

The more i read your comments, the more i think you don't read anything past the first two sentences of a comment and then reply without thinking for 2 seconds.

That's why i cannot take you seriously my dude... =/

 

Edit: and the list of auto/bolter weapons is *cussing* long! ^^

 

Edited April 6, 2023 by MichaelCarmine

[SkimaskMohawk]

5 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Edit: And while Warders are the one unit, that can hold an objective against even custodes, the Huscarl are the one Unit, that Custodes actually might be scared about - WS5/6, S10 AP1 power-fisting, 2+/3++, HQ(!!!) Terminators.

While i thought, my Deliverers where overpowerd - against Huscarls, they look like a bad joke...

 

Equivalent of huscarls also lose to custodes, even fully loaded. It was one of the fist speculative matchups that was brought up way back on the Libers release.

 

2 hours ago, Bung said:

Superior BS as Fist? You make me laugh.

You only get the most Basic Weapons boosted.

If you want something more serious Like Lascannons IF arent better than any other Legion.

 

The more i read your comments, the more i think you havent played a single game this Edition and just regurgitate OTC and others you heard in the Internet.

 

Man, you're not wrong that the bonus is often overexaggerated, but let's not be disingenuous. One of the best ranged weapons of the edition is a bolt weapon; the nemesis, aka sniper rifle. You can comfortably not care about night fighting and will out perform raven guard recons in Decapitation strike against ICs. Assault cannon spam is less strong than it was, but a full 10 still piles on the wounds to things.

 

And while we're talking about HSS, even if you do *just* take lascannons, a castellan makes them scoring. So in the end, they are better than the average HSS. 

 

I still don't know why you're getting so worked up about people calling fists strong; they are. They're a forgiving legion with only one (obvious) trap unit, lots of internal synergy, lots of flexibility, with direct buffs to the most common units. 

[Slips]

7 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Equivalent of huscarls also lose to custodes, even fully loaded. It was one of the fist speculative matchups that was brought up way back on the Libers release.

 

 

Man, you're not wrong that the bonus is often overexaggerated, but let's not be disingenuous. One of the best ranged weapons of the edition is a bolt weapon; the nemesis, aka sniper rifle. You can comfortably not care about night fighting and will out perform raven guard recons in Decapitation strike against ICs. Assault cannon spam is less strong than it was, but a full 10 still piles on the wounds to things.

 

And while we're talking about HSS, even if you do *just* take lascannons, a castellan makes them scoring. So in the end, they are better than the average HSS. 

 

I still don't know why you're getting so worked up about people calling fists strong; they are. They're a forgiving legion with only one (obvious) trap unit, lots of internal synergy, lots of flexibility, with direct buffs to the most common units. 

I think the issue is that MC is seemingly turning the thread into an "I have a problem with the IF" complaint thread to the detriment of other discussions but, similarly, it keeps circling back because people respond perpetuating the issue instead of just going "Yeah, IF have some problematic stuff" and moving on instead of continuously harping on the subject.

[MichaelCarmine]

1 hour ago, Slips said:

I think the issue is that MC is seemingly turning the thread into an "I have a problem with the IF" complaint thread to the detriment of other discussions but, similarly, it keeps circling back because people respond perpetuating the issue instead of just going "Yeah, IF have some problematic stuff" and moving on instead of continuously harping on the subject.

Hey to be fair, i don't have a problem with IF, otherwise i wouldn't take every opportunity to play against them. =]

 

What i do have a problem with, is when people come by and try to tell me, that IFs are balanced and i'm ignorant, or unworldly when sating otherwise. 

I've already statet, that i'm sorry for for the OP, for bringing back the warder discussion, but when someone answers me with a questiom, or an absolute statement, i can't just stay quiet... 

[Slips]

17 minutes ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Hey to be fair, i don't have a problem with IF, otherwise i wouldn't take every opportunity to play against them. =]

 

What i do have a problem with, is when people come by and try to tell me, that IFs are balanced and i'm ignorant, or unworldly when sating otherwise. 

I've already statet, that i'm sorry for for the OP, for bringing back the warder discussion, but when someone answers me with a questiom, or an absolute statement, i can't just stay quiet... 

Yeah Like, I play IF and agree that from a pure "what do it do tho" level, IF are pretty much on top. Im mainly just happy Hammerfall Strikeforce isnt a "Choose this RoW if you want to play in a 2v1 of Yourself and your enemy vs you."

 

But, similarly, you can always just...not answer... people so that the discussion moves on.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Slips

[SkimaskMohawk]

26 minutes ago, Slips said:

I think the issue is that MC is seemingly turning the thread into an "I have a problem with the IF" complaint thread to the detriment of other discussions but, similarly, it keeps circling back because people respond perpetuating the issue instead of just going "Yeah, IF have some problematic stuff" and moving on instead of continuously harping on the subject.

 

I mean, one of the guys arguing that "imperial fists are fine, actually" is also reporting people for saying fists are strong lol.

 

This thread is full of people making some contentious claims and then doubling down on them.

 

[Bung]

8 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

I mean, one of the guys arguing that "imperial fists are fine, actually" is also reporting people for saying fists are strong lol.

 

This thread is full of people making some contentious claims and then doubling down on them.

 

 

When the best Argument i have read that Fists are strong is a Youtuber with the tactical sense of a sucidal Hamster and people not willing to adapt their list and tactics to problem and just complain but IF have this, can do this etc.

Do you all play with unlimited points for the IF Player?

 

For the mentioned SG list at 2500 Points you look maybe at 

4 ten man Squads of Warders

2 HQs if you want scoring HSS

5 Huscarls + a LR as they cant Teleport

2 Squads of HSS

 

Which are all predictable in what they will be doing and If you dont run a skew list in your own that army is probably easy to beat.

But runing a Terminator HQ and a Terminator Squad into a Squad full with AP2 weapons and definitv buffs, thats Not a problem of Warders.

[SkimaskMohawk]

5 hours ago, Bung said:

When the best Argument i have read that Fists are strong is a Youtuber with the tactical sense of a sucidal Hamster and people not willing to adapt their list and tactics to problem and just complain but IF have this, can do this etc.

 

Well it's not an argument, but Slips is a veteran fists player who agreed they're top tier like, two posts above yours. 

 

5 hours ago, Bung said:

For the mentioned SG list at 2500 Points you look maybe at 

4 ten man Squads of Warders

2 HQs if you want scoring HSS

5 Huscarls + a LR as they cant Teleport

2 Squads of HSS

 

Which are all predictable in what they will be doing and If you dont run a skew list in your own that army is probably easy to beat.

But runing a Terminator HQ and a Terminator Squad into a Squad full with AP2 weapons and definitv buffs, thats Not a problem of Warders

 

That list is obviously...not great though. It's all lopsided with 6 scoring units but no real offensive pressure. You can turn it into something really annoying by trimming the fat and taking more diverse units, but yea as you presented it, the list is predictable.

 

 

[Slips]

I, similarly, also think people are hyper-focusing on the 4++ rerollable shenanigans of SG Phalanx Warders and kinda just forgetting that the new Hammerfall Strikeforce lets you do MUCH more. Not as defensively powerful but, it also means the IF Player isn't bunching up his Shieldbois into B2B contact to get the SG Bonuses and slowly crawling up the board.

 

Its basically all the upside of Drop Pod Assault (it costs ~30pts to give a unit deepstrike vs a pods 35 so youre getting a discount but with some downsides) with none of the downsides outside of vehicles having to start in reserves.

[Brother Sutek]

20 hours ago, Slips said:

I, similarly, also think people are hyper-focusing on the 4++ rerollable shenanigans of SG Phalanx Warders and kinda just forgetting that the new Hammerfall Strikeforce lets you do MUCH more. Not as defensively powerful but, it also means the IF Player isn't bunching up his Shieldbois into B2B contact to get the SG Bonuses and slowly crawling up the board.

 

Its basically all the upside of Drop Pod Assault (it costs ~30pts to give a unit deepstrike vs a pods 35 so youre getting a discount but with some downsides) with none of the downsides outside of vehicles having to start in reserves.

I would love for my Deathwing to get that. Absolutely love it! 30pts for my terminators to once again deep strike? Glorious days indeed.

Edited April 8, 2023 by Brother Sutek
Spelling

[MichaelCarmine]

23 hours ago, Slips said:

Yeah Like, I play IF and agree that from a pure "what do it do tho" level, IF are pretty much on top. Im mainly just happy Hammerfall Strikeforce isnt a "Choose this RoW if you want to play in a 2v1 of Yourself and your enemy vs you."

 

But, similarly, you can always just...not answer... people so that the discussion moves on.

Well, if my opinion is greeted with accusations that i don't know how to play the game (or don't play at all) just because the other person has no answer at hand and is to proud or ignorant to just aknowledge, that i have a point, then i'm kinda obliged to answer and defend myself... or would you yourself really let that slide?  

 

If one has a valid point, i'm the first to aknowledge that - as proofen here and in other threads.

[MichaelCarmine]

8 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Well it's not an argument, but Slips is a veteran fists player who agreed they're top tier like, two posts above yours. 

 

 

That list is obviously...not great though. It's all lopsided with 6 scoring units but no real offensive pressure. You can turn it into something really annoying by trimming the fat and taking more diverse units, but yea as you presented it, the list is predictable.

 

 

To be fair, i don't know, where he's always getting at with his 4 warder units/list. I've yet to face more then three (and that was only once), two is more than enough in Stone Gauntlet and until now reflects about 80% of the IF lists i played against.

It also leaves plenty of points for everything else, the Fists excell at, but he simply won't aknowledge that. 

 

PS: about Huscarls, you're right! I forgot, that Custodes hit everything infantry above WS6 also on 4s, thought they'd hit the huscarls back on 5s ^^

[General Zodd]

On 4/6/2023 at 8:20 PM, SkimaskMohawk said:

I still don't know why you're getting so worked up about people calling fists strong; they are. They're a forgiving legion with only one (obvious) trap unit, lots of internal synergy, lots of flexibility, with direct buffs to the most common units. 

I know this is the exact opposite of the purpose of this thread, but out of interest, which is the “trap” unit in your opinion? I’m not that experienced with the game yet, but I think I’ve heard every single option available to them being complained about by someone either in person or on the internet as too strong.

 

Well, apart from poor old Alexis Pollux, I don’t think I’ve seen anyone mention him at all!

[Slips]

40 minutes ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Well, if my opinion is greeted with accusations that i don't know how to play the game (or don't play at all) just because the other person has no answer at hand and is to proud or ignorant to just aknowledge, that i have a point, then i'm kinda obliged to answer and defend myself... or would you yourself really let that slide?  

 

If one has a valid point, i'm the first to aknowledge that - as proofen here and in other threads.

Yeah Id let that slide, Id just move on with my life. Going back and forth and back and forth when neither party is willing to concede is just a waste of time and effort; Id rather go back to playing whatever video game, watching whatever video or eating whatever food I was at the time than go "No, actually, youre not getting it" for the 3rd time.

 

At no point in time are you under any obligation to respond and, often times, it better if one didn't because what good does it do if you just drag a thread off-topic?

 

23 minutes ago, General Zodd said:

I know this is the exact opposite of the purpose of this thread, but out of interest, which is the “trap” unit in your opinion? I’m not that experienced with the game yet, but I think I’ve heard every single option available to them being complained about by someone either in person or on the internet as too strong.

 

Well, apart from poor old Alexis Pollux, I don’t think I’ve seen anyone mention him at all!

Id recommend going off and making a thread to cover that topic so this one can remain focussed on its premise.

[MichaelCarmine]

7 hours ago, Slips said:

Yeah Id let that slide, Id just move on with my life. Going back and forth and back and forth when neither party is willing to concede is just a waste of time and effort; Id rather go back to playing whatever video game, watching whatever video or eating whatever food I was at the time than go "No, actually, youre not getting it" for the 3rd time.

 

At no point in time are you under any obligation to respond and, often times, it better if one didn't because what good does it do if you just drag a thread off-topic?

 

Id recommend going off and making a thread to cover that topic so this one can remain focussed on its premise.

Well, we'll see about that ^^

You can also watch a video and eat, while you write a comment ;)

 

You're right, i'm not obligated to anything, but this is a forum and we have a discussion about problematic units and even if one dude has no solid argument and changes in a direction, that one could call personal attacks, i'm still happy to stay on topic and proof that guy wrong. ^^

 

And i don't really see, when i have dragged it off topic?

I mean, we did still discuss the matter of problematic units...

'twas just a bit onesided, but still... ^^

 

Anyway, sorry if i actually did drag something offtopic ^^

Back to it! =]

 

 

Where Fulmentarus actually mentioned yet? 

Really don't see, what good comes from giving a BS5 Terminator unit Str.8 AP2 Brutal(2) missiles... yeah, they are "short" range, but was AP2 really necessary? 

Yeah, IW have their Tyrants, but they are BS4, Have AP3 and not brutal...

Edit: ...and also keep them elite while tyrants need a HS slot... 

Edited April 8, 2023 by MichaelCarmine

[OttoVonAwesome]

40 minutes ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Well, we'll see about that ^^

You can also watch a video and eat, while you write a comment ;)

 

You're right, i'm not obligated to anything, but this is a forum and we have a discussion about problematic units and even if one dude has no solid argument and changes in a direction, that one could call personal attacks, i'm still happy to stay on topic and proof that guy wrong. ^^

 

And i don't really see, when i have dragged it off topic?

I mean, we did still discuss the matter of problematic units...

'twas just a bit onesided, but still... ^^

 

Anyway, sorry if i actually did drag something offtopic ^^

Back to it! =]

 

 

Where Fulmentarus actually mentioned yet? 

Really don't see, what good comes from giving a BS5 Terminator unit Str.8 AP2 Brutal(2) missiles... yeah, they are "short" range, but was AP2 really necessary? 

Yeah, IW have their Tyrants, but they are BS4, Have AP3 and not brutal...

Edit: ...and also keep them elite while tyrants need a HS slot... 

Yes Fulmentarus were bitched about quite a bit since people seem to take like 20 and call it an army but they are also a legacy unit and are much more likely to be toned down since thier datasheet is anything but final. They can even do it at any time since they only exist online and aren't final no one can really bitch. I perfer Locutarus anyway no expects Ultramarines to be melee aggressors. Take anymore than 5 Fulmentarus and you lose out on all the fun you could be having with other units.

[OttoVonAwesome]

13 hours ago, Slips said:

I, similarly, also think people are hyper-focusing on the 4++ rerollable shenanigans of SG Phalanx Warders and kinda just forgetting that the new Hammerfall Strikeforce lets you do MUCH more. Not as defensively powerful but, it also means the IF Player isn't bunching up his Shieldbois into B2B contact to get the SG Bonuses and slowly crawling up the board.

 

Its basically all the upside of Drop Pod Assault (it costs ~30pts to give a unit deepstrike vs a pods 35 so youre getting a discount but with some downsides) with none of the downsides outside of vehicles having to start in reserves.

Hammerfall just seems way more fun too like the Warder rite is broken but predictable you are gonna make the same plays every game and run risk of turning your meta into you VS Fury of the Ancients and Fulmentarus spam just to bring you down a peg or you can play Hammerfall and out play your opponents and just have generally better games or even Pride of the Legion is a good one for fists.

 

I just kinda wish the warder rite was reverted to the breacher rite as that version was more fun took a generally looked down upon unit and made it better rather than taking an already good unit and buffing it into absurdity. plus 1 toughness is cool re-rolling invulnerables in any case is an abomination especially when nothing else does that.

[SkimaskMohawk]

17 hours ago, General Zodd said:

I know this is the exact opposite of the purpose of this thread, but out of interest, which is the “trap” unit in your opinion? I’m not that experienced with the game yet, but I think I’ve heard every single option available to them being complained about by someone either in person or on the internet as too strong.

 

Well, apart from poor old Alexis Pollux, I don’t think I’ve seen anyone mention him at all!

 

It's the templars. Theyre a footslogging melee unit that can only really fight power armoured opponents. Their upside is that artificer makes people have to commit quality guns at an otherwise negligable unit, but that's about it. The rite makes them line and gives them rage, but they're still...very niche. 

 

A good comparison is the command squad. 146 for 5 with power swords. They exchange furious charge for chosen warriors, and crusader for fearless/LD 10 aura/line, otherwise they're the same. And no one takes those or complains about them at all. 

 

Polux is a great utility character when you're not running either of the Fists rites. Giving deepstrike to a unit is hugely strong, and so is the redeploy. It's just that the rites are highly appealing, and the fists tendency towards deepstrike means their opponents may tech more for it. 

Edited April 8, 2023 by SkimaskMohawk

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Templars exist to look cool and cheer on Sigismund as he single-handedly tears a hole in anything dumb enough to face him in melee. They're a pile of decently priced bricks that you put on objectives while one legend kills a path through the other guy's army.

[Gorgoff]

Myrmidon Secutors with Plasma Fusils? 

Three have 18 S6, AP3 Breaching 4+ shots with BS5. At least they sound brutal.

[Bung]

On 4/7/2023 at 2:52 PM, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Well it's not an argument, but Slips is a veteran fists player who agreed they're top tier like, two posts above yours. 

 

 

That list is obviously...not great though. It's all lopsided with 6 scoring units but no real offensive pressure. You can turn it into something really annoying by trimming the fat and taking more diverse units, but yea as you presented it, the list is predictable.

 

 

 

I have never said they are bad, isaud through some Salt dispensers like OTC Warders are blown out of proportion.

 

Or my normal opponents are the Rebirth of Sun Tzu, Rommel and every other brilliant General compressed into a handfull people.

As neither of them has any problems beating a SG list with the miniatures i have.

 

I have myself switched armies playing against SG and If you dont play Like a suicidal Hamster you can win but it needs some actuall skill in the table.

 

Thats what i am saying.

 

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

How did that have anything to do with what you quoted me saying?

[Gorgoff]

1 hour ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

How did that have anything to do with what you quoted me saying?

I guess the bad army list he keeps posting is indeed his army list he plays and bases his whole argument on. Problem is that this isn't the standard SG list you'll about to see in the wild. 

Instead we see two Phalanx Wardens, Recons with Nemesis bolters, scorpion, one 10 men lascannons Heavy Support Squad including a MoS and a Castellan some shooty or cc dreadnoughts, apos for the wardens and another shooty unit from the heavy slot plus additional stuff for taste. It may be boring but it is definitely effective and hardly balanced which is the whole point why people rightfully complain about those rules. 

 

Anyways I don't want to talk about wardens again. We made our point and that's about it. 

 

Instead I want to talk Secutors.

Are those problematic?

Edited April 10, 2023 by Gorgoff