Speculation on Luther missing

[Harleqvin]

My own thoughts on Luther being out of his cell, which I've had a bit since they mentioned it in the supplement.

So with Luther gone from his cell. Having walked out of it after a "battle" happens.
There is no way the Watchers would just let him go..., unless they allowed it.
 

I feel the Watchers let him go. For whatever reason.

Maybe on Lion's command. We know he's healed, Still being held by the Watchers somewhere within the depths of The Rock..

Random thought: instances of Luther talking to a SGM of DA he has been known to stare off in a direction. I kind of feel he knows where the Lion is, like being able to sense it.

So, maybe the Watchers with agreement of Lion let Luther go?

 

We don't know where he went. He just walked out of his cell, and kept walking. It also doesn't actually say when it happened.

It's hinted that Azrael is the only one with an idea of why Marbas attacked, and left shortly after doing so. So, it's possible it was during that battle.
I speculate maybe he has headed off to try to gather those that are remorseful (not saying that he is the one that is mass gathering The Fallen,) after possibly having talked to El'Jonson (this part is REAL speculation/wishing. It could lead into a dual purpose codex/supplement. One where there is rules to play a loyal Fallen army or a traitor Fallen army. Either utilizing it's own codex, or being a supplement that works with C:SM and C:CSM depending which side you want to represent. Which would also work in GW's favor as an additional way to make more money by getting people to get three books .)

 

Going back to the when he got out. It's not out of the realms of possibility that GW will make it "happen" during the rumored attack by Vashtorr that is supposed to happen in Vashtorr's Arks of Omen book, and that the blurb in the DA supplement was of something that they hadn't published yet (I mean they retconned the whole of the 13th Black Crusade...) So, maybe the reason Marbas attacked The Rock was to verify a weakpoint for Vashtorr, and then leave before the DA could figure out how they got in (and at this point the Watchers sensing/knowing something was happening, let Luther out,) and that's how Vashtorr will assault The Rock.

 

This is something that has been on my mind for a bit, and is a bit short. But it's pretty much the gist of my thought without being overly complicated, and hopefully it is coherent & not just mad ramblings .

[Tacitus]

The watchers didn't stop him before, why would they stop him now?  He was captured because he was babbling and incoherent when DA marines found him.  They moved an unconcious Lion around.  But rarely do you see them engaging in anything forceful. 

[Harleqvin]

But he didn't try to take off either before the DA found him after the planet got destroyed. Edit - also them leaving Luther there was how the DA found out about the watchers taking off with the Lion.

It makes no sense the Watchers wouldn't stop him from leaving, unless they allowed it.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Harleqvin

[Tacitus]

5 hours ago, Harleqvin said:

But he didn't try to take off either before the DA found him after the planet got destroyed. Edit - also them leaving Luther there was how the DA found out about the watchers taking off with the Lion.

It makes no sense the Watchers wouldn't stop him from leaving, unless they allowed it.

But he didn't try to take off either before the DA found him after the planet got destroyed.

 

The way I read the fluff he couldn't take off, he was a broken shell - even in modern times he just babbles and Azrael has to try and divine the true meaning from the gibberish. 

 

Edit - also them leaving Luther there was how the DA found out about the watchers taking off with the Lion.

 

The Dark Angels know?

 

It makes no sense the Watchers wouldn't stop him from leaving, unless they allowed it.

 

I think the Watchers are something of a ripoff of the Highlander Watchers.  They observe but don't intervene - well beyond that one guy running around with the Lion Helm or Azrael's scabbard, or accidentally getting caught in a psycic attack they nullify through just being there kind of thing.   GW isn't shy about borrowing other people's ideas, or easter egging a pop culture shout out, just ask Sly Marbo.   So in some ways you could say they allowed it, but in most ways they allow anything. 

[Harleqvin]

He was broken. Rambling about the Lion and the watchers taking off with him.
Also he couldn't leave even after he was captured he was either in stasis, that until it stopped working for whatever reason, was only able to be opened with the sword of secrets (I'm sure before the SoS was made there was something else controlling it,) or imprisoned, and being guarded.

The watchers interfere. It's shown in the stories. They allow people to go through area of the rock or not allowing them to. Hiding passageways, and such.
They are also very good at mucking with Chaos, and very potent psychic race. Heck even The Changling was weirded out by them, iirc. They pushed out Azzy and company at the end of Unforgiven, slamming the door shut, and mucked with the Tchulcha* engine.
They don't just observe.

There isn't a reason Luther could just walk out, unless they allowed it.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Harleqvin
fixing typos.

[Brother Tyler]

The assumption appears to be that Luther just walked out.

 

What if some external agency (not the Watchers in the Dark) was responsible for Luther's disappearance from the Rock? After all, the whole event happened when there was considerable psychic unrest and Chaos influence at large in the galaxy. These may have contributed to interference in whatever efforts the Watchers in the Dark applied to keeping Luther prisoner, enabling Luther to escape or be rescued/abducted by some other party.

 

Switching to the comment about the Lion and the Dark Angels knowing about him, what is the source for this? All of the lore I'm familiar with maintains that the Dark Angels are completely unaware that the Lion is deep within the Rock. If this lore changed, that is significant. I'm not saying that such lore doesn't exist - I'm just not up to date on the most recent Dark Angels lore beyond what is in the codex supplement. So if this is a change to/development within the lore, I'm interested in reading it from the source.

 

Going back to Luther's disappearance and the theory about it being allowed/engineered by the Watchers in the Dark, perhaps they were holding him until a specific time for their own inscrutable reasons - all part of either a grand millennia-long plan or a reaction to/preparation for events that are unfolding within the galaxy. The upcoming invasion of the Rock seems pretty momentous, a potential watershed moment for WH40K lore and the potential for some grand development.

 

Or maybe the Watchers in the Dark aren't confined to the Rock. Perhaps they have presence elsewhere. If that is the case, perhaps they moved Luther to some other location for Reasons.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I've read no source that the Dark Angels are aware that Lion El'Jonson resides on The Rock. Luther may have rambled about something of the sort, but if I remember right, anything like that wasn't believed and taken as lies or rambling madness.

 

As for Luther, I suspect he is at large. The lore in the recent codices alludes to him leading the gathering of the Fallen in the Imperium Nihilus.

Edited February 14, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Harleqvin]

On 2/14/2023 at 5:01 AM, Brother Tyler said:

The assumption appears to be that Luther just walked out.

 

What if some external agency (not the Watchers in the Dark) was responsible for Luther's disappearance from the Rock? After all, the whole event happened when there was considerable psychic unrest and Chaos influence at large in the galaxy. These may have contributed to interference in whatever efforts the Watchers in the Dark applied to keeping Luther prisoner, enabling Luther to escape or be rescued/abducted by some other party.

 

Switching to the comment about the Lion and the Dark Angels knowing about him, what is the source for this? All of the lore I'm familiar with maintains that the Dark Angels are completely unaware that the Lion is deep within the Rock. If this lore changed, that is significant. I'm not saying that such lore doesn't exist - I'm just not up to date on the most recent Dark Angels lore beyond what is in the codex supplement. So if this is a change to/development within the lore, I'm interested in reading it from the source.

 

Going back to Luther's disappearance and the theory about it being allowed/engineered by the Watchers in the Dark, perhaps they were holding him until a specific time for their own inscrutable reasons - all part of either a grand millennia-long plan or a reaction to/preparation for events that are unfolding within the galaxy. The upcoming invasion of the Rock seems pretty momentous, a potential watershed moment for WH40K lore and the potential for some grand development.

 

Or maybe the Watchers in the Dark aren't confined to the Rock. Perhaps they have presence elsewhere. If that is the case, perhaps they moved Luther to some other location for Reasons.

For the exact spot talking about it.

at the end of "Luther: First of the Fallen" it says:

The door was still open.

Stasis had not returned. He smelled smoke. Taking a deeper breath he assured himself that it was real and not imagined. With focus came a similar certainty regarding the sounds of battle close at hand. The Rock was under attack, his captors distracted.

The door was still open.

Luther's thoughts returned to it as he stretched painfully weak limbs.

Left by Azrael or opened by another?

He took a cautious step, and then another, and another.

 

It's possible, but the Watchers have had ability to do crazy things during crazy warp/chaos/psychic turbulance. Like when they went nuts on Tchulcha*, and put out Azzy and slammed the door shut.

 

The lore for Luther when they found him on the remains of Caliban at the Fortress of Angels was that he was blathering on about how he was sorry and that they took him. It seems pretty evident that the DA didn't believe him, or maybe the ones then did but have kept it hidden even from the legion which now no one in the chapters knows that bit.

And so far it doesn't appear that the Watchers have said anything to the DA about having him.

The modern DA don't know the Lion is in the Rock somewhere it appears (if they do know/believe what Luther has said.) Luther rambled on about how they took him to the DA that found Luther (it's possible he has said again about it or more to future DA but do they believe him if he did, probably not.) Does that mean the DA that found him believe him, no. But he still told them about it.

 

That is possible, too. Them making sure he didn't leave till the right time.

 

They likely aren't confined to the Rock, in HH stories they have been seen on the ships far away from the Caliban.

 

 

On 2/14/2023 at 7:29 AM, WrathOfTheLion said:

I've read no source that the Dark Angels are aware that Lion El'Jonson resides on The Rock. Luther may have rambled about something of the sort, but if I remember right, anything like that wasn't believed and taken as lies or rambling madness.

 

As for Luther, I suspect he is at large. The lore in the recent codices alludes to him leading the gathering of the Fallen in the Imperium Nihilus.

There isn't any really about the specifics, besides Luther saying they took him, whether any of those DA believed it or not seems to be shown they don't.

 

He's definitely somewhere that isn't his holding cell, we know that for sure. Lore doesn't give any info about who is responsible for the gathering. But it is possibly him.

 

==============================================================================================================================================================

 

Just to me, with what we know about the Watchers, it doesn't make sense that they wouldn't have stopped him.

 

I very much look forward to the furthering of the story. That also it might stop so much of the being so secretive causing more issues for the Imperium of Man stuff like killing those who know about the Fallen, leaving a battle that then Imperium forces get desolated. They can still be going after the Fallen, but it would be nice for the DA to not be so hiding in the dark about it.

 

I am not getting my hopes up a whole lot, as we don't yet know what is store, as we don't know that definitively we are getting the Lion back so soon like the big rumors from what appears to be reputable sources. Rumors are rumors till GW makes them true.

 

Personally I would like that Luther does "good" as it seems from what has been shown is that he shows regret/remorse for what he's done.

 

Hopefully we will see more in the next 6 months if Lion does come back, and potentially find out more info about where Luther went/why he got out.

[aura_enchanted]

i don't think the luther story arc will be very lengthy and it will end with the defeat of luther and the destruction of the fallen sort of. they want to someday "drop firstborn" marines but the dark angels you cant really do that entirely, and so my concept is the following and really it hangs on the fact that the fallen are a bunch of trash. they are not an organized fighting force, yes they are space marines but they haven't fought as an organized force, in a conflict united in centuries and centuries, at most 2 or 3 or 4 at a time. and they lack the vast weapons stockpiles of the dark angels. they are coming together and yes there's a lot of them, but numbers and vashtorr giving them a pile of guns via magical plot devices go, and they are supposed to then have a grand battle with the lion.. master strategist, and his vast arsenal of archeotech weapons around the unforgiven, and massive amounts of guns, and their unit coherency which is simply a cut above every other legions successors, the unforgiven are one of the most cohesive legion family still with azreal at its head... i just.. what? no!

i believe lion rallies the weary unforgiven, brings them together and shows the fallen who is boss, with jackbooted angry daddy on son violence. the unforgiven cling to luthers every word which is incoherent, maddened and possibly involving everything from chaos gods to canned soup and group cuddle sessions is utterly incapable of stopping him, luther lays eyes finally on the lion and suddenly in a moment of clarity throws himself at the lions feat stunning the fallen, and our lord and master mercy kills his friend right in front of them, cutting his head off. and from here the lion just leave. the firstborn loyalists are all wiped out, the lord cypher gathers up the remaining fallen, and they follow around the dark angels and sort of a weird and awkward +1, hoping to win their lords favor and forgiveness once more by throwing themselves at his foes when he orders it so. as sort of the dark angels equivalent to the death company.

 

and it lets the dark angels tap into the firstborn, and the blood angels, and space wolves will likely get the same excuse for the death company//sanguinary guard, and the space wolves will probably get a similar concept applied to lone wolves, and wulfen. these wayward brothers that awkwardly follow around the second born and daddy hoping for his favor and and honorable death in battle, wielded sparingly because of their vast combat experience that the second born simply lack till they eventually piddle out

[Tacitus]

11 hours ago, aura_enchanted said:

i don't think the luther story arc will be very lengthy and it will end with the defeat of luther and the destruction of the fallen sort of. they want to someday "drop firstborn" marines but the dark angels you cant really do that entirely, and so my concept is the following and really it hangs on the fact that the fallen are a bunch of trash. they are not an organized fighting force, yes they are space marines but they haven't fought as an organized force, in a conflict united in centuries and centuries, at most 2 or 3 or 4 at a time. and they lack the vast weapons stockpiles of the dark angels. they are coming together and yes there's a lot of them, but numbers and vashtorr giving them a pile of guns via magical plot devices go, and they are supposed to then have a grand battle with the lion.. master strategist, and his vast arsenal of archeotech weapons around the unforgiven, and massive amounts of guns, and their unit coherency which is simply a cut above every other legions successors, the unforgiven are one of the most cohesive legion family still with azreal at its head... i just.. what? no!

i believe lion rallies the weary unforgiven, brings them together and shows the fallen who is boss, with jackbooted angry daddy on son violence. the unforgiven cling to luthers every word which is incoherent, maddened and possibly involving everything from chaos gods to canned soup and group cuddle sessions is utterly incapable of stopping him, luther lays eyes finally on the lion and suddenly in a moment of clarity throws himself at the lions feat stunning the fallen, and our lord and master mercy kills his friend right in front of them, cutting his head off. and from here the lion just leave. the firstborn loyalists are all wiped out, the lord cypher gathers up the remaining fallen, and they follow around the dark angels and sort of a weird and awkward +1, hoping to win their lords favor and forgiveness once more by throwing themselves at his foes when he orders it so. as sort of the dark angels equivalent to the death company.

 

and it lets the dark angels tap into the firstborn, and the blood angels, and space wolves will likely get the same excuse for the death company//sanguinary guard, and the space wolves will probably get a similar concept applied to lone wolves, and wulfen. these wayward brothers that awkwardly follow around the second born and daddy hoping for his favor and and honorable death in battle, wielded sparingly because of their vast combat experience that the second born simply lack till they eventually piddle out

They may be ready to give up on the Fallen as a Narrative Battle thing.  They've tried and tried to hammer a round peg into a square hole for a while now without realizing the failure is in expecting the Nids Player to be carrying around a squad of Fallen JUST IN CASE he runs into a DA player, as opposed to the DA player giving the Nid Player a squad of fallen to control as part of their (The DA) army creation.  I don't think so, but time will tell. 

 

I don't think THIS Luther story arc will be lengthy, but it will also not be resolved.  Luther may or may not get a model to turn The Fallen into a full fledged faction and he's their Primarch/Centerpiece.  Long shot, maybe later I think but pretty unlikely.  I'm almost certain he's the property of the Black Library and not the Studio now.  Once this story arc is finsihed, he ends up being an insane Moriarty/Blofeld mastermind type villain, using the Fallen to use yet other factions to meddle with the Dark Angels. 

[Harleqvin]

On 2/17/2023 at 12:51 PM, aura_enchanted said:

i don't think the luther story arc will be very lengthy and it will end with the defeat of luther and the destruction of the fallen sort of. they want to someday "drop firstborn" marines but the dark angels you cant really do that entirely, and so my concept is the following and really it hangs on the fact that the fallen are a bunch of trash. they are not an organized fighting force, yes they are space marines but they haven't fought as an organized force, in a conflict united in centuries and centuries, at most 2 or 3 or 4 at a time. and they lack the vast weapons stockpiles of the dark angels. they are coming together and yes there's a lot of them, but numbers and vashtorr giving them a pile of guns via magical plot devices go, and they are supposed to then have a grand battle with the lion.. master strategist, and his vast arsenal of archeotech weapons around the unforgiven, and massive amounts of guns, and their unit coherency which is simply a cut above every other legions successors, the unforgiven are one of the most cohesive legion family still with azreal at its head... i just.. what? no!

i believe lion rallies the weary unforgiven, brings them together and shows the fallen who is boss, with jackbooted angry daddy on son violence. the unforgiven cling to luthers every word which is incoherent, maddened and possibly involving everything from chaos gods to canned soup and group cuddle sessions is utterly incapable of stopping him, luther lays eyes finally on the lion and suddenly in a moment of clarity throws himself at the lions feat stunning the fallen, and our lord and master mercy kills his friend right in front of them, cutting his head off. and from here the lion just leave. the firstborn loyalists are all wiped out, the lord cypher gathers up the remaining fallen, and they follow around the dark angels and sort of a weird and awkward +1, hoping to win their lords favor and forgiveness once more by throwing themselves at his foes when he orders it so. as sort of the dark angels equivalent to the death company.

 

and it lets the dark angels tap into the firstborn, and the blood angels, and space wolves will likely get the same excuse for the death company//sanguinary guard, and the space wolves will probably get a similar concept applied to lone wolves, and wulfen. these wayward brothers that awkwardly follow around the second born and daddy hoping for his favor and and honorable death in battle, wielded sparingly because of their vast combat experience that the second born simply lack till they eventually piddle out

Aspect of that seems to not work for my thoughts on the whole of Luther, mainly because Luther has seen the error of his ways. It was part of why the DA think he lost his mind because of him spouting the stuff about the lion forgiving him, how "they" took The Lion, and the lion will forgive him. Throughout the years its more that he talks about the stuff from his time and things hes seen which seems incoherent to the DA interrogating him, as it seems like nothing to the matter at hand that they are asking about, and seems meaningless babble and such, to just staring off in a certain direction.

So personally I don't feel Luther will be trying to bring the Fallen together to do bad traitor stuff like how he did on Caliban.

There will likely be 2ndBorn Sang Guard (as it's inevitable. But I am not sure if they'd keep both 1stBorn or not. Heck, they'd probably just make them essentially 2dnBorn for all rules but just let players use old and new models just with weapon tweaks that even the basic special weapons on 1stBorn models will be functional for the new Essential 2ndBorn,) and the BA already have both 1st and 2nd born Death Company (so it wouldn't be much a change.) It's going to happen that there will be 2ndBorn Wulfen as Cawl didn't remove the canis helix (he pretty much said there were things he felt were meant to be there by the emperor. that being one of them.) So seems weird the thought that GW would have him  just keep the Fallen that go to him just to let the DA tap into the 1stBorn when we already can do that as there's already still a good number of 1stBorn (all in all this is my mind with the thoughts on the big rumor that they are getting rid of the Distinction between 1st and 2nd Born. So who know, maybe that is the weird they will do instead of getting rid of the distinction between the two but keeping certain things for 1st born in relation...)
 

 

On 2/18/2023 at 12:02 AM, Tacitus said:

They may be ready to give up on the Fallen as a Narrative Battle thing.  They've tried and tried to hammer a round peg into a square hole for a while now without realizing the failure is in expecting the Nids Player to be carrying around a squad of Fallen JUST IN CASE he runs into a DA player, as opposed to the DA player giving the Nid Player a squad of fallen to control as part of their (The DA) army creation.  I don't think so, but time will tell. 

 

I don't think THIS Luther story arc will be lengthy, but it will also not be resolved.  Luther may or may not get a model to turn The Fallen into a full fledged faction and he's their Primarch/Centerpiece.  Long shot, maybe later I think but pretty unlikely.  I'm almost certain he's the property of the Black Library and not the Studio now.  Once this story arc is finsihed, he ends up being an insane Moriarty/Blofeld mastermind type villain, using the Fallen to use yet other factions to meddle with the Dark Angels. 

I'm not so sure about that. The narrative thing with other armies is the thought that you're probably not playing only against a tyranid player (and you'd likely have extra models for your opposing player to use being Tyranid or not. But that was also before new C:CSM codex came out which got rid of Fallen unit, but now a CSM army can choose Fallen for <Legion> now unlike with the 8th ed codex. So that opens up room for even more ability for someone to use CSM plainly and them choosing Fallen for <legion> if you are both up for something in that narrative fashion more so now.) And if you decide to use the special crusade thing where you go after a specific guy, you should probably have the model for them to use as 2 of the 3 units they can use are in your codex, and you can have it be for whatever reason he's there, maybe he is on the world that the tyranid are devouring so you are trying to get to him before he slips off world escaping the Great Devourer and The Unforgiven hunting him. And if they do give Fallen a proper proper army, it would just make more stuff for Narrative between them.
 

I also don't think the Luther is Missing arc will be very lengthy, but as said I don't think it is Luther gathering the Fallen to go off and do traitor stuff. but if they do finally bring about a proper proper Fallen codex/army, they will likely have Luther being a special character, I just think that if they do they would likely have him be usable for traitor and not traitor version, with Marbas being the straight up Traitor only HQ. Also give Astelan for Traitor only HQ so I can wreck that unit up each time (even if I don't win, me killing him will be my victory .)

[Tacitus]

57 minutes ago, Harleqvin said:

 

 

I'm not so sure about that. The narrative thing with other armies is the thought that you're probably not playing only against a tyranid player (and you'd likely have extra models for your opposing player to use being Tyranid or not. But that was also before new C:CSM codex came out which got rid of Fallen unit, but now a CSM army can choose Fallen for <Legion> now unlike with the 8th ed codex.  So that opens up room for even more ability for someone to use CSM plainly and them choosing Fallen for <legion> if you are both up for something in that narrative fashion more so now.) And if you decide to use the special crusade thing where you go after a specific guy, you should probably have the model for them to use as 2 of the 3 units they can use are in your codex, and you can have it be for whatever reason he's there, maybe he is on the world that the tyranid are devouring so you are trying to get to him before he slips off world escaping the Great Devourer and The Unforgiven hunting him. And if they do give Fallen a proper proper army, it would just make more stuff for Narrative between them.
 

I also don't think the Luther is Missing arc will be very lengthy, but as said I don't think it is Luther gathering the Fallen to go off and do traitor stuff. but if they do finally bring about a proper proper Fallen codex/army, they will likely have Luther being a special character, I just think that if they do they would likely have him be usable for traitor and not traitor version, with Marbas being the straight up Traitor only HQ. Also give Astelan for Traitor only HQ so I can wreck that unit up each time (even if I don't win, me killing him will be my victory .)

Fallen actually being in the C:SM book at all is hit or miss.  I do think they're trying to do something different.  And while the DA player probably had extra models, the Nid player didn't save any points for them - nor are they likely painted up as Fallen.  There hasn't ever been a time where you just handed a couple to a handful of models to the opposition which were unlikely to swing a difference, but were still then on the table for the opposition player to control.  I think that's what I would have done with the Fallen in earlier editions.  Paint up these two characters and/or this squad as Fallen.  The opposition gets them, they get no special rules from the opposition army, they get a few C:SM or SM equivalent rules like Shock/Hateful Assault or Bolter Discipline - just the basics - they may or may not be able to capture, or perform actions - They can't buff or be buffed by non-fallen (Think Psychic Powers or Chaplain/Dark Apostle Litanies/etc.   The sweet spot is to give the opponent just enough of a boost they want to use the models instead of parking them in a corner, but not so much that you don't want to give them the models to open up your Secondaries and such.  At least that's how I would have done it.  Independent of list building, and not a potent swing either way.

 

I have seen some rumors that either Luther or even the Lion is (going to be) able to lead The Fallen - And the Fallen have always been portrayed as part Loyalists-cut-off, and part full traitors.  With whatever fluff ties Azrael to the Tuchulcha Engine (re)creating/assisting/doubling down/etc the Warp Storm that created the Fallen in the first place you've also just potentially opened the door to ret-conned Primaris Fallen who were scattered throughout time and space in a linked time and space rift to the original The Fallen Warp Storm.   Hey, if you go Time Travel, you might as well lean into it. 

 

Another problem with continuing The Fallen feud is they're dropping the entire "Preferred Enemy" design space, and dropping it hard.  I don't expect Word Bearer strats in the next UM Codex Supplement.  I don't see any Ork stuff in the Crimson Fists.  They're crossing up the historical rivalries, now to The Deathguard were invading Macragge while the Nids were making Baal a midnight snack instead of Ultramar.  Making this design space an "Always-On" makes the space miss far more often than it wins.  (I'd make a bunch of them, I'd make them part of the BRB or something everyone has, and I'd make them a two way 0 CP Strat you use at the beginning of the Deployment Phase.  Crimson Fists get Preferred Enemy Orks, Orks get Frenzy(or something balanced) from the prospect of a good fight - Each player can pay 0CP to get their bonus - or something like that)  But having it bespoke and taking up strats, objectives, and so on - that's going away most other places, and probably will/would here if The Fallen turn into an Army of their own right and they can get around the fluff problems of The Fallen as a Faction being kept hidden from The Inquisition.  Which may not be necessary with the return of the Lion. 

[Harleqvin]

On 2/18/2023 at 4:47 AM, Tacitus said:

Fallen actually being in the C:SM book at all is hit or miss.  I do think they're trying to do something different.  And while the DA player probably had extra models, the Nid player didn't save any points for them - nor are they likely painted up as Fallen.  There hasn't ever been a time where you just handed a couple to a handful of models to the opposition which were unlikely to swing a difference, but were still then on the table for the opposition player to control.  I think that's what I would have done with the Fallen in earlier editions.  Paint up these two characters and/or this squad as Fallen.  The opposition gets them, they get no special rules from the opposition army, they get a few C:SM or SM equivalent rules like Shock/Hateful Assault or Bolter Discipline - just the basics - they may or may not be able to capture, or perform actions - They can't buff or be buffed by non-fallen (Think Psychic Powers or Chaplain/Dark Apostle Litanies/etc.   The sweet spot is to give the opponent just enough of a boost they want to use the models instead of parking them in a corner, but not so much that you don't want to give them the models to open up your Secondaries and such.  At least that's how I would have done it.  Independent of list building, and not a potent swing either way.

 

I have seen some rumors that either Luther or even the Lion is (going to be) able to lead The Fallen - And the Fallen have always been portrayed as part Loyalists-cut-off, and part full traitors.  With whatever fluff ties Azrael to the Tuchulcha Engine (re)creating/assisting/doubling down/etc the Warp Storm that created the Fallen in the first place you've also just potentially opened the door to ret-conned Primaris Fallen who were scattered throughout time and space in a linked time and space rift to the original The Fallen Warp Storm.   Hey, if you go Time Travel, you might as well lean into it. 

 

Another problem with continuing The Fallen feud is they're dropping the entire "Preferred Enemy" design space, and dropping it hard.  I don't expect Word Bearer strats in the next UM Codex Supplement.  I don't see any Ork stuff in the Crimson Fists.  They're crossing up the historical rivalries, now to The Deathguard were invading Macragge while the Nids were making Baal a midnight snack instead of Ultramar.  Making this design space an "Always-On" makes the space miss far more often than it wins.  (I'd make a bunch of them, I'd make them part of the BRB or something everyone has, and I'd make them a two way 0 CP Strat you use at the beginning of the Deployment Phase.  Crimson Fists get Preferred Enemy Orks, Orks get Frenzy(or something balanced) from the prospect of a good fight - Each player can pay 0CP to get their bonus - or something like that)  But having it bespoke and taking up strats, objectives, and so on - that's going away most other places, and probably will/would here if The Fallen turn into an Army of their own right and they can get around the fluff problems of The Fallen as a Faction being kept hidden from The Inquisition.  Which may not be necessary with the return of the Lion. 

They have been in it most editions, iirc (I know they & Cypher started as a special gotta have your opponents permission in 2nd ed. 3rd they were both there. I'd have to look at what was there between that and 6th. I can't remember if it was in 6th or 7th Cypher was a special datasheet in the CE/LE DA codex... but they also had the Cypher Datasheet. Then 7th they got put into first gathering Storm book, Then 8th back in C:CSM but couldn't choose Fallen as a <legion>. Then 9th we know Cypher stil there and they removed the inability to choose Fallen for <legion>. All in all we will just have to wait and see what happens. I know I am on the side of having them have their own thing. )
And most of the narrative stuff isn't necessarily about being balanced. I'd honestly feel the pull in the Nid scenario being the DA having to get them and not exactly about trying to "win" against the Nids. But yeah, there'd have to be something keeping the nid player (or any player you end up giving models to,) to use them and not just park them in a corner behind all their stuff.

 

I know not much has been said from reputable sources, But I'd imagine they'd do something with having Luther being a special character for Fallen. It just kinda makes sense. I just feel he would be for the Loyalist side due to his remorse-fullness about what he did. I don't see anything happening for 2ndborn Fallen (at least by DA labeling them that,) as they weren't there for the events of The Unforgiven novel, and the fact that the Unforgiven only label a DA Fallen if they were from the destruction of Caliban. There have been Unforgiven that turned traitor/hereticus since the Destruction of Caliban but they never call/label them Fallen.
I could see the possibility some of the 2ndborn going to the side Fallen (War of Secrets issues, and maybe Test of Faith,) but even those issues seem to have been mitigated with the 9th ed Supplement having Azrael making the 2ndborn successor chapters having their own Inner Circle, and the furthering of trusting/accepting 2ndborn.

 

DA still have some Fallen interaction in base rules (Inner Circle not being able to fallback from them. Which is a good choice I feel for keeping the narrative element for it, while it doesn't seem like a big waste like how DA used to have rerolls against only them when they didn't often go against them. I was annoyed that we got just basic reroll lone against them before, and it was silly of the inverse for the Fallen datasheet...) I was a little surprised they made the one for C:CSM get turned into a strat 1CP against adeptus/sanctic astartes. (I do find it a little weird they got rid of the Crimson fists having aggro on Orks all the time.) and honestly a bit annoyed with so many basic rules from previous editions on units being turned into strats that cost CP (Something I am for from the rumors for 10th was the stream lining and removing of so many Strats. Maybe they will bring back a number of those rules going back to the units plainly.)

When they bring Fallen back in properly, I am guessing it's not going to be an issue with keeping things hidden as the big rumors of the Lion coming back. That is going to have big impact on the furthered narrative.

 

I look forward to seeing what ends up happening with 10th and all the rumors from reputable sources, and the stuff we have no idea about. Whether it's bad or good, it's gonna be lore

[phandaal]

On 2/13/2023 at 5:38 PM, Harleqvin said:

But he didn't try to take off either before the DA found him after the planet got destroyed. Edit - also them leaving Luther there was how the DA found out about the watchers taking off with the Lion.

It makes no sense the Watchers wouldn't stop him from leaving, unless they allowed it.

 

The Dark Angels do not know about the Lion. That has been stated unequivocally many times over the years, going all the way back to Codex: Angels of Death. The Watchers know, and the Emperor knows, and that is it. There has never been any indication that the Dark Angels consider Luther's statements about the Lion to be anything other than nonsense.

 

The Watchers were not holding Luther captive. The Dark Angels were. The Watchers do their own thing, always, and they never bothered with Luther. It only does not make sense if you do not want it to make sense.

 

As for Luther himself, the Dark Angels keep him in stasis within the Rock and occasionally revive him to interrogate him for the location of the Fallen. He does not have the ability to get up and escape on his own. The only way he would get out is if he was taken.

[Harleqvin]

On 2/22/2023 at 8:30 AM, phandaal said:

 

The Dark Angels do not know about the Lion. That has been stated unequivocally many times over the years, going all the way back to Codex: Angels of Death. The Watchers know, and the Emperor knows, and that is it. There has never been any indication that the Dark Angels consider Luther's statements about the Lion to be anything other than nonsense.

 

The Watchers were not holding Luther captive. The Dark Angels were. The Watchers do their own thing, always, and they never bothered with Luther. It only does not make sense if you do not want it to make sense.

 

As for Luther himself, the Dark Angels keep him in stasis within the Rock and occasionally revive him to interrogate him for the location of the Fallen. He does not have the ability to get up and escape on his own. The only way he would get out is if he was taken.

Luther said "they took him," whether the DA believe him or not, knew what he meant, is a different matter.

 

The watchers can prevent people from going places. it's been established. With Luther having done what he did, and the DA keeping him locked up, it would make sense they would prevent him from leaving if his stasis field wasn't up, unless they decided not to prevent him from doing so.

 

Also, yes, he literally walked out of his prison cell/chamber... nobody "took" him. What happened after he walked out is not known, besides that he isn't there anymore.
 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Harleqvin

[phandaal]

9 hours ago, Harleqvin said:

Luther said "they took him," whether the DA believe him or not, knew what he meant, is a different matter.

 

Right. That is the point. The Dark Angels do not know about the Lion. They know what Luther said, if their records still go back that far. As you say, those are different things.

 

9 hours ago, Harleqvin said:

The watchers can prevent people from going places. it's been established. With Luther having done what he did, and the DA keeping him locked up, it would make sense they would prevent him from leaving if his stasis field wasn't up, unless they decided not to prevent him from doing so.

 

Given that the Watchers are not called the Doers, their default state is to just let things happen. Does not imply anything beside the fact that they very rarely choose to act.

 

9 hours ago, Harleqvin said:

Also, yes, he literally walked out of his prison cell/chamber... nobody "took" him. What happened after he walked out is not known, besides that he isn't there anymore.

 

What is your source for this claim?

 

Luther's chamber was assaulted somehow, all of the protective wards and devices were violently destroyed, and it happened during Marbas' attack on the Rock. Luther getting up and walking away is by far the least likely explanation.

[Harleqvin]

On 2/24/2023 at 11:42 AM, phandaal said:

 

Right. That is the point. The Dark Angels do not know about the Lion. They know what Luther said, if their records still go back that far. As you say, those are different things.

 

 

Given that the Watchers are not called the Doers, their default state is to just let things happen. Does not imply anything beside the fact that they very rarely choose to act.

 

 

What is your source for this claim?

 

Luther's chamber was assaulted somehow, all of the protective wards and devices were violently destroyed, and it happened during Marbas' attack on the Rock. Luther getting up and walking away is by far the least likely explanation.

As said.

 

The watchers have been shown time and again what they can do.

 

You didn't read my hidden section in a reply several above. evidently.

 

 

at the end of "Luther: First of the Fallen" it says:



The door was still open.

Stasis had not returned. He smelled smoke. Taking a deeper breath he assured himself that it was real and not imagined. With focus came a similar certainty regarding the sounds of battle close at hand. The Rock was under attack, his captors distracted.

The door was still open.

Luther's thoughts returned to it as he stretched painfully weak limbs.

Left by Azrael or opened by another?

He took a cautious step, and then another, and another.
 

 

 

Also, no. it's never been stated that it was Marbas' attack that it was Luther escaped. People are assuming it was from that battle partially because in the supplement that Azrael suspects when/how/who. However it does not outright say it was from that attack. And it doesn't say that stuff keeping his stasis up were violently destroyed. and partially because it's currently the newest battle that we knew of besides now what Vashtorr is doing, which honestly we all know how far back they work on the stuff. So it is possible the mentioning of Luther not being there anymore (which also was in a different section than the stated Marbas attack,) could possibly be from an attack we weren't given further info about yet

Edited February 24, 2023 by Harleqvin
typos and finishing a thought after fixing hidden section

[phandaal]

Ah, okay. I thought you were saying Luther had freed himself - my mistake. I understand now that you are saying he got up and walked once he was freed.

 

The lore is unambiguous though. Everything  keeping Luther warded and in stasis was destroyed. It does in fact describe how violent the destruction of the physical parts of his prison was, and how tainted with Chaos the area around his cell had become due to the sorcery used to destroy Luther's wards.

 

Luther did not free himself, which means someone else came and did it.

 

Azrael found Luther missing in the aftermath of the attack by Marbas. Assuming Luther was taken during the attack by Marbas is the logical conclusion, so yes that is what people assume.

 

Do we assume instead that Marbas attacked the Rock and released a bunch of prisoners, then Azrael just said "YOLO" and did not bother checking up on his most important prisoner until the next time his impregnable fortress was breached by Chaos?

[Harleqvin]

On 2/24/2023 at 3:28 PM, phandaal said:

Ah, okay. I thought you were saying Luther had freed himself - my mistake. I understand now that you are saying he got up and walked once he was freed.

 

The lore is unambiguous though. Everything  keeping Luther warded and in stasis was destroyed. It does in fact describe how violent the destruction of the physical parts of his prison was, and how tainted with Chaos the area around his cell had become due to the sorcery used to destroy Luther's wards.

 

Luther did not free himself, which means someone else came and did it.

 

Azrael found Luther missing in the aftermath of the attack by Marbas. Assuming Luther was taken during the attack by Marbas is the logical conclusion, so yes that is what people assume.

 

Do we assume instead that Marbas attacked the Rock and released a bunch of prisoners, then Azrael just said "YOLO" and did not bother checking up on his most important prisoner until the next time his impregnable fortress was breached by Chaos?

Where does it say that

1: Everything that was keeping Luther warded was destroyed during the Marbas attack?

2: That it was directly after the attack by Marbas that Luther walked out?

Because pretty certain those things haven't actually been said, that the specific info on when the attack happened that Luther was able to walk out has not been stated. It's all conjecture at the moment, and people just "assume" it was the Marbas attack. I'm not saying it 100% wasn't then. I'm saying it's just not 100% been stated that it was then, and that it is possible it's from an event we didn't yet know about when the supplement came out (as we now know of the Vashtorr attack going to be happening. and it's entirely possible that GW could say that the moment of Luther being able to just walk out was then, and not the Marbas attack.)

 

I do think that info will be known in the foreseeable future (potentially in the last few Arks books, potentially in the new Cypher book to come out, or "shortly" after 10th ed hits,) and I look forward to seeing that info actually be told (whichever it is to be,) as I am looking forward to furthering the narrative with the Fallen, Luther, Lion, and the Unforgiven.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I thought it was worth mentioning that the First Founding book does clarify that Luther was freed by Marbas, at least according to this book. It is stated,

 

Quote

Now the nature of the secret [of Luther] has changed, for Luther has escaped, freed by the fallen daemon prince Marbas...

 

[Harleqvin]

On 3/3/2023 at 10:08 PM, WrathOfTheLion said:

I thought it was worth mentioning that the First Founding book does clarify that Luther was freed by Marbas, at least according to this book. It is stated,

 

 

That’s good info to know. I need to get that. I know it only just came out the other week.

 

They also just stated in the recent warcom article for Vahtorr (photos.)

 

So it’s definitive now that Luther got out during Marbas’ raid. 

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Harleqvin

[Harleqvin]

So then, wonder if Luther is no longer on the Rock, or if he is now somewhere else within the Rock?

 

I’ve honestly wondered if Luther can sense where the Lion is within the Rock. Nothing really to support that, just my mind with his odd staring off in a particular direction when Azzy talked with him in the Caliban trilogy (which I know could just be him thinking/reminiscing in his own mind.)

[Brother Sutek]

I'm just hoping they will move the Dark Angels on storywise to having something new and not the constant Fallen stories. If we get the Lion back and Luther has an actual good story that is a win. If we get the same old Fallen stories and the DAs never do anything else...

[Bouargh]

I though he just walked out to get a pack of cigarettes...

 

Less off-topic, I´d say this arc is not going anywhere atm.

Sure it has been teased a lot, or at least quite much than other things that ended as a codex/new army (Votanns/Squats come back for example). But Fallen, except the unit that can be fielded eihter in Imperium or CSM factions is a kind of odd-ball. A 40k era counter part for black shields maybe?

 

I cannot see Luther being free and mentaly sane/stable enoug to play a role. I would tend to believe he has not even been stased out, but that is out of time coffin has been grabbed by the Daemon prince under its arm. May be planning to use him as a beacon being in that case a puppet in the own hands of Marbas? But I would tend to think it might end up in the end being a kinda secondary plot, just kept in reserve, just in case you know... Maybe a future Act II of El Jonson come back... 

[WrathOfTheLion]

The Fallen datasheet isn't in the current CSM Codex - gone as well is the restriction against taking <Fallen> as your faction keyword, so they can be fielded as is as a CSM legion right now.

 

I'd like to see them get a proper Legion trait, etc. next edition.