Female Primarch Project Redux! Dawn Legion Ideaboard

[Brother Dougal]

“We are the Dawn of a New Age!” -Battle Cry of the Dawn Legion

 

How long has it been? Long enough! Ladies and Gentlemarines, I give you Tlatia the Radiant and her sons of the Eleventh, the Dawn Legion!

 

That’s right, I’m back, and I’m kickstarting my Lost Legion project again! And this time no rest till she’s the most famous Primarch outside of canon!

 

New pictures? Check.

 

3D print models? Check.

 

New Lore? Check.

 

YouTube video? I can dream…. 

 

[Grotsmasha]

I am so happy to see you and this project back, can't wait

[Halandaar]

This was such a great project, excited to see what's new!

[Brother Dougal]

Well first things first. As you can see, I’ve changed the name from Dawn Lords to Dawn Legion. This time around I’m giving a lot more focus to the Legion itself; fleshing it out and trying to give it character. Drawing a lot more from Aztec mythology and warfare, but with a little less focus on blood sacrifice that you see elsewhere. 

 

 

Remember my Panthera Scouts? I’m expanding on the concept, giving animal totems to six different parts of the Legion.

 

Jaguar = Veteran Scouts/ Reconnaissance forces

Eagle = Sergeants and Captains (this one’s still up for some debate)

Caiman = Techmarines

Rabbit = Apothecaries

Snake = Librarians

Owl = Chaplains

 

I’m still working on the Dawn Legion’s philosophy, but a strong belief in balance and the cycles of the natural world helped me come up with this idea for multiple totems. What do you think?

[Studio Silvernale]

Ohh I have her

[Gamiel]

1 hour ago, Brother Dougal said:

I’m still working on the Dawn Legion’s philosophy, but a strong belief in balance and the cycles of the natural world helped me come up with this idea for multiple totems. What do you think?

Sounds like a good (re)start. 

 

Suggest, if you have not already thought about this, to use more then just the aztecs as inspiration. Pick one/some more culture/s to look at, don't even need to be a real one, there are many fictional cultures that you can mine from. Maybe Hindu culture with their ideas about history going in cycles, or Avatar the Last Airbender, Taoism are (if I remember right) big on balance maybe something from there.

 

Have you given any thoughts to the Dawn Legion’s personality/culture before their primarch finding? How much (or little) did they change under her leadership?

 

Any thoughts regarding if there any notable differences between between the Legion's different chapters?

 

Also, suggest giving suggestions how to paint/kitbash battle-brothers from the Dawn Legion is you want others to do them.

[Gamiel]

18 hours ago, Gamiel said:

Also, suggest giving suggestions how to paint/kitbash battle-brothers from the Dawn Legion is you want others to do them.

Regaring this part would a some points about what seraphon bits do fit the legion and which do not be helpful since the seraphon boxes are probobly where most people will go first. 

[Brother Dougal]

Thanks for the ideas, Gamiel.

 

As for kit-bashing, I’m working with a 3rd-party sculptor who wants to make models for my Legion. They haven’t started yet, but once they have I’ll provide links to their store. Besides that, I’m afraid I’m not experienced enough in kitbashing to offer advice on how to make these guys. My apologies.

 

Before they found her.. hmm, that’s something to think about. Mostly I’m still working on what they are now (I’ve always struggled to find a niche in combat doctrine to give them. Maybe some kind of cross between Raven Guard and Blood Angels?) But I’ll keep their origins in mind.

 

I need some kind of character flaw too. Right now I’m considering the idea that the Legion is a bit more glory-hungry than Tlatia herself, who is personally quite happy to let her brothers take the lion’s share. Preferring to fight with them, she goes out of her way to join her siblings on campaigns, seeking to strengthen their bonds. This has the unforeseen side-effect of diminishing her Legion’s standing as its own force, which bothers some of her sons who dream of their Legion being as well-known as the Luna Wolves or Blood Angels.

[Gamiel]

Based on that most of your pics of them show them in rainforest or swamp environment maybe they are somewhat of jungle/rainforest/swampland experts, both "normal" and Death World class? Could have that they were the Chapter that took in Catachan and/or similar worlds into the Imperium. Since many Knight Worlds are/was also Death Worlds maybe they have made allies among some Knight Houses? 

 

Many of the Legions had a kind of social roll that they either were given or they took up - e.g. the Ultramarines were administrators, Dark Angles were monster hunters - and a concept that I got in my mind that I don't think any of the canon legions really have is "memory keepers". The idea is that the secund had/took the roll of recording what the Imperium did and going through the records and technology of the Emperor's fallen foes, with an eye toward what to keep and show the rest of the Imperium, what to keep secret for everybody but the Emperor and his trusted, and what is too dangerous and heretical to do anything but destroy. This could lead to them keeping around lots of stuff that maybe they should not... Or maybe, based on that it feels like your concept of them is that they seem themself as the bringers, or at least forbearers, of a better future makes them a bit naive when it comes to the possible effects or misuses of stuff they have deemed keepable and/or spreadable.

 

Another role I don't think really exist among the other Legions would be the hunters/slayers of the unnatural, the DA and the SW have common role as slayer of the monsters that are to vile/dangerous to be remembered, but you could have that the Dawn Legion are used toward the mystical threats that the DA or SW are unequipped for*, protected by rituals, charms and effective superstitions (and possibly Emperor created technology unique to them). 

* would likely still take it out but at a higher cost than for the Dawn Legion in this scenario. 

 

Maybe they see themselves as protectors of the land for future generations and try to keep farmland or more wild nature as undamaged as possible. Maybe not just for future generations but as something they see as an end in itself. This would make them aversive toward forces like the Death Guard and Iron Warriors who are willing to poison worlds for generation in the name of victory. On the other hand would this likely make them positive toward the Salamanders and the Ultramarines. Even if they possibly see the land as more important than the people living there right now, making them wiling to do atrocities toward the humans as long it means a quick fight that minimally damage the land, if so could the Salamanders have a aversive attitude toward them.

 

Regarding weakness could you nod that European sicknesses more than decimated the native populations in the Americas and have that they are not as immune from sicknesses as the other Legions.

 

------------------------------

 

Do they recruit from only one world or many?

 

Have you seen this thread?

Maybe has some inspiration.

[Gamiel]

On 2/15/2023 at 6:24 PM, Brother Dougal said:

I’m still working on the Dawn Legion’s philosophy, but a strong belief in balance

Suggest using the yin-yang symbol here, since it's a good symbol of balance and we have had Imperial people wearing it so it's not unheard of.

 

 

[Brother Dougal]

Here’s a Techmarine with a Dreadnought.

 

Besides all the philosophical stuff, I’m trying to figure out if my Legion should have special names for its companies and chapters; The Blood Angels are organized into Hosts and Spheres. The Thousand Sons have Cults. Dark Angels into Wings and Orders, White Scars into Brotherhoods. Clans, Great Companies, Houses, the list goes on.

 

On the other hand, Legions like the Emperor’s Children and Raven Guard just stick with the basic Chapter/Company/Squad structure. It’s not every Legion.

 

I don’t know. What do you guys suggest?

[Firedrake Cordova]

How do you see your chapter being recruited? Could the companies be raised from specific settlements (like the Salamanders)? Perhaps various areas have a differing belief or trait making them apt to a specific aspect of warfare that would see them logically grouped together?

 

Really, it's a case of [a] do you have a preference? and can you come up with a "cool" reason for them adopting that? Otherwise, "codex" seems to be the easy option  

Edited February 20, 2023 by Firedrake Cordova

[Gamiel]

All art I have seen of the Dawn Legion have them in notably personlised armour, do you have any pics of Legion members who are wearing fabric-standard and not blinged up armour? More or less all of GW's official presentation pics for Legions and Chapters use a marine in a standard armour with just their chapter colours and organisation markings. 

 

Maybe go throung the marine pics you have and look att the different colour combinations and markings they have and decide if any of them are rank or group markings, personal heraldry, crusade markings, honour markings, or similar.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Why have Techmarines wear caiman masks? Is there a cultural reason, e.g., the creature is associated with ingenuity in the Chapter planet's mythology, maybe because archeotech can be found and salvaged from swamps the caiman are native to?

 

And do the Techmarines install additional sensors into the available space- maybe an X-ray detector to let them scan a machine and better determine what repairs are necessary, and radiation shielding to protect themselves from the radiation?

[Brother Dougal]

One standard Dawn Legionnaire, coming up.

 

In Aztec mythology, there’s a strong emphasis on dualism present. Man and woman, day and night, earth and sky, land and sea. Everything is balanced by something else. That’s why they have Jaguar and Eagle Warriors in their society: the Jaguar is associated with earth and night, while the Eagle represents day and sky. Learning that is what made me want to make my Veteran warriors into Panthera Scouts; silent, stealthy, stalking killers who move through the darkness.

 

To contrast, I thought of making Eagles into sergeants and captains; bright, bold warriors who lead from the front, proudly displaying their colors and heraldry, daring the enemy to strike them. I’m not 100% settled on it, but it’s what I’m leaning towards right now.

 

After that, further research showed me that other animals had all sorts of associations. Way back when I first made my Legion, I had caimans associated with Terminators, because they represented endurance and strength. That changed later on as I found other animals I wanted to attach to other special officers, so instead I put them with Techmarines.

 

The Snake is the animal most associated with magic, which made them a natural choice for Librarians. Owls are connected to the God of Death, and in myth they are messengers of the Underworld, so giving them to Chaplains was obvious. Finally, I gave Rabbits to Apothecaries because, like several other cultures across the world, the Aztecs believed that rabbits were connected to the Moon.

 

Ten points if you know why Apothecaries and the Moon have a connection.

[Dr. Clock]

On 2/21/2023 at 10:27 AM, Brother Dougal said:

Apothecaries and the Moon

Not Aztec or Maya, but in Chinese mythology the 'man on the moon' face is interpreted as a rabbit mixing up the 'elixir of immortality' using a mortar and pestle...

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

On 2/21/2023 at 7:27 AM, Brother Dougal said:

Learning that is what made me want to make my Veteran warriors into Panthera Scouts; silent, stealthy, stalking killers who move through the darkness.

 

To contrast, I thought of making Eagles into sergeants and captains; bright, bold warriors who lead from the front, proudly displaying their colors and heraldry, daring the enemy to strike them.

I don't think it's a good idea to tactically limit Marine leaders in the way you propose. How about making the Eagle Warriors the Captains' Honor Guards and Champions- and if necessary, body doubles to distract the enemy, while a Captain dons Panthera Scout armor to infiltrate an enemy position to perform reconnaissance, sabotage, and/or assassination missions?

[Brother Dougal]

Hmm… I am not convinced. I want the Jaguar Scouts to be a unit, not just a single person. A special unit, like the Mor Deythan, the Palatine Blades, the Deathwing, or something like that. Maybe calling them Veterans is the wrong word to use. Mixing up Chapter with Legion? I’m not sure.

 

How to put it? I’m looking at the Legion overview articles on a site called Goonhammer, trying to draw from them, while also researching the Aztec military and how they organized.

 

The Aztecs had higher and higher ranks within their military that warriors could aspire to. First you had the regular warriors, who did other jobs when their city was not at war. Then there were Jaguar and Eagle warriors, who earned enough glory through acts on the battlefield to become full-time warriors. Then you had a step above That, called the Shorn Ones, who had earned even more glory and were considered the best of the best. That’s my Honour Guard. (In my Legion I call them the Tecuani, which is a Nahuatl word for ‘monster’)

 

No matter what I’ve researched so far I haven’t found much of any difference between the Jaguar and Eagle warriors. The only reason I think there were two orders in the first place is because of the Aztec dualism beliefs. Jaguar and Eagle, Earth and Sky, Night and Day. They dressed differently, but I don’t know if they fought differently.

 

Giving them different roles is something I’m doing myself, for the Legion. I want the Jaguars and Eagles to do different things.

 

Hmmm… so Tecuani Honour Guard are Terminators. Jaguars are special unit Scouts. Eagles are… 

[Gamiel]

The classic HH books presentation of a Legion is to present their history on Terra (where and/or from what did they recruite), what did they do in the later Unifacation War (either on Terra or in the Solar system, if not both), how did they develop and/or how was they seen by the others in the Imperium, and what was going on more or less just before they found their Primarch. 

 

Then there is a presentation of their Primarch, what he (or in you case she) did before being found, their "homeworld" and what she did to it (unify it, become the biggest tribal warlord, help to save it for xeno/heretek overlords/raiders, and/or similar)  and what metodes she used to do this. And how she was found and her reaction to Big E and how He got her on His side.

 

And then there is the presentation of how her Legion reacted to her and vice versa, followed by how she changed her Legion.

 

Followed by two to four examples of the Legions style of fighting agains now deffeated enemies, possibly with one showing how they fought before finding their Primarch to show the way their warfare changed after finding her (if it did).

 

Maybe do something like that in your presentation? 

  

On 2/20/2023 at 6:38 PM, Brother Dougal said:

Besides all the philosophical stuff, I’m trying to figure out if my Legion should have special names for its companies and chapters; The Blood Angels are organized into Hosts and Spheres. The Thousand Sons have Cults. Dark Angels into Wings and Orders, White Scars into Brotherhoods. Clans, Great Companies, Houses, the list goes on.

 

On the other hand, Legions like the Emperor’s Children and Raven Guard just stick with the basic Chapter/Company/Squad structure. It’s not every Legion.

 

I don’t know. What do you guys suggest?

 

On 2/24/2023 at 7:06 PM, Brother Dougal said:

Hmm… I am not convinced. I want the Jaguar Scouts to be a unit, not just a single person. A special unit, like the Mor Deythan, the Palatine Blades, the Deathwing, or something like that. Maybe calling them Veterans is the wrong word to use. Mixing up Chapter with Legion? I’m not sure.

 

How to put it? I’m looking at the Legion overview articles on a site called Goonhammer, trying to draw from them, while also researching the Aztec military and how they organized.

 

The Aztecs had higher and higher ranks within their military that warriors could aspire to. First you had the regular warriors, who did other jobs when their city was not at war. Then there were Jaguar and Eagle warriors, who earned enough glory through acts on the battlefield to become full-time warriors. Then you had a step above That, called the Shorn Ones, who had earned even more glory and were considered the best of the best. That’s my Honour Guard. (In my Legion I call them the Tecuani, which is a Nahuatl word for ‘monster’)

Suggest that you for now use Chapters and Companies but also have something like the DA's Wings and Orders, as in warrior societies/lodges that span over the chapters and companies. And it's with the warrior societies I would put the "animal warriors", having that they are groups that are elites within a certain way of war (either by long experience,  natural talant and/or a singelminded focus on that way of war) in this version are not all scouts Jaguar Warrior but all Jaguar Warrior are scout elite - if there was rules for this was I thinking that you could upgrade scout squads to Jaguar Warriors making them better in all ways, and you could upgrade officers for any kind of squad (including scout ones) and HQ:s into Jaguar Warriors giving them some special rules showing that they are really good at sneaking around and thining like a ambusher, even when they are not in scout possision - and similar things with the other. But that's just me.

 

On 2/21/2023 at 4:27 PM, Brother Dougal said:

Owls are connected to the God of Death, and in myth they are messengers of the Underworld, so giving them to Chaplains was obvious.

Chaplains are a rather new inventions at the start of the HH, suggest using owls for the Destroyers.

 

On 2/24/2023 at 7:06 PM, Brother Dougal said:

No matter what I’ve researched so far I haven’t found much of any difference between the Jaguar and Eagle warriors. The only reason I think there were two orders in the first place is because of the Aztec dualism beliefs. Jaguar and Eagle, Earth and Sky, Night and Day. They dressed differently, but I don’t know if they fought differently.

 

Giving them different roles is something I’m doing myself, for the Legion. I want the Jaguars and Eagles to do different things.

 

Hmmm… so Tecuani Honour Guard are Terminators. Jaguars are special unit Scouts. Eagles are… 

Maybe have Eagles as jump pack units and/or flyer pilot? Or maybe just fast attacks units in general since they swop in with speed, like the eagle swop down toward its prey?

 

Suggest that you incoprate more animals also, you could here have that some of those animal orders have functions that other legions lack, or specilisations that combine things from different orders (like jumppack using destroyers), or specilise in a certain enviorment (e.g. fighting in narrow spaces like caverns, alleys and corridors,* or under water), or have a specilisation that some of the other Legions have but not all (like terror or dueling).

* Bat or mole would be fitting here

 

For inspiration I suggest taking a look at Nahual RPG (their downloadable quickstart set present eight different kinds of "totem warriors") and Cheyenne military societies, and you can use animals that are not native to Mesoamerica if you want since the DL homeworld is it's own planet where animals from all over the world can have been imported to, or even some xeno-animals have gone native (unless they were there first). You could have a Clawed Fiend order if you wanted to after all. 

 

 

Also, since you seems to be going for the Aztec as high culture angle, insted of the human sacrifice and evil empire angle, do I suggest taking a look at the Sun Empire and River Heralds factions to Magic the Gathering's Ixalan set, and at TORG: Space Gods for how others have done Mesoamerican (without the grisly parts) inspiered fantasy, respectively science fiction factions, and maybe get some ideas from their versions. 

Edited February 26, 2023 by Gamiel

[Brother Dougal]

Woof, that’s a lot to consider. Let me just take this moment to thank you so much for all your interest, guys. It’s a little overwhelming at times, but I’m grateful for the interest.

 

Here, check out this org page I’m having made for my Legion. It’s got a lot of unfinished parts, but I love it even so.

 

One thing I can say is that for Destroyers, I’m actually going for the Toad totem. Toads were seen as great predators to Mesoamericans, right up there with the jaguar, and known for their hallucinogenic properties. Along with their poisonous frog relatives, I think that makes a pretty cool fit for the Phosphex-wielding Destroyers.

[Brother Dougal]

Alright… so we’ll have cross-Legion organizations that teach the specialties. Like the Wings of the Dark Angels. I’m thinking of calling them Temples. Temple of the Jaguar, Temple of the Serpent, Temple of the Owl, etc. etc.

 

As for the companies and chapters, I like the idea of naming them after celestial concepts, like the phases of the moon. 1st Phase-Company? Or just 1st Phase? How does that sound?

 

There are other terms I could use too. Equinox, solstice, eclipse. One has to go to the Chapters, one to the battalions, and one to the companies. Hmmm….

 

Or maybe name the Chapters after the names of Constellations? Mesoamericans are famous for their study of the celestial bodies and charting their movements.

[Brother Dougal]

People ask me if my Legion is female or mixed-gender and honestly I’m conflicted about it.

 

When I first worked on the idea I only made the primarch female. My primary motivation at the time was introducing a woman to the order of demigods that was the Imperial Royal Family. Imagining how she might’ve interacted with the others and influenced things during the Crusade, the Heresy, or even 40k.

 

But while I very much want a female Primarch, my feelings about Female Space Marines are quite different. Of course I believe in equality and fairness and such things, but there are other factor that muddy things for me. For example, I’m a big fan of the Adepta Sororitas and the Sisters of Silence. Do I want male models of them? Would it add to them or take something away if I did so? These are questions.

 

I also recognize that Space Marines are the most popular faction by a fair amount. Would adding women make them even more popular? Would it take away from the other factions? Do I want that? Or am I thinking about it wrong?

 

If I did make Female Space Marines, I think I’d want to see them integrated into the Sororitas, instead of the Astartes.

 

But on the other hand, the Adeptus Custodes mix with the Sisters of Silence, and that apparently works. I have no problems there.

 

So what do I do? How do I feel? What would work? I keep asking myself these things and I don’t have an answer. For the moment, I’m sticking with the original idea. But if a good enough way to integrate them could be found, I’d be open to it.

 

How to work in the Selenar….

[Valkia the Bloody]

Well, my opinion has always been that he Emperor does not care where the raw materials for his wars come from.

I think he would not care about things like gender and race, as long as these people go and do what they are told.

I am also a molecular biologist, and I know that mammalian embryos, when they do not get the right signals, will always develop into FEMALES.

However, if you add the right hormones and chemical signals, they will turn into males.

I am pretty sure that someone as wise as the Emperor will have know about this fact (even if the GW Games designers did not).

So I actually have the sneaky suspicion we have been lied to.

There have been female Space Marines in all the legions all along.

Everything else is just some propaganda do keep the citizens in line- and the families that have their girls taken as well as their boys will just be silenced.

 

That aside....

I am VERY divided on the now more and more common practice to add more and more female sculpts into the model ranges.

There are female sculpts in the new Khorne cultists!

Yes, true, there could be the occasional ravenous female to run along with the male butchers, but 4 out of 10 ?????

I am not sure how to feel about this.

(especially since in history, martial warrior cults like the Mithraism strictly forbid females! )

Yes, I get it, inclusivity and equality and all that, but this strains my suspension of disbelief. And yeah, I know, Khorne does not care where the blood comes from.

Also, would this make the game more popular?

Would it attract more women to the hobby?

Well, my own armies have so far included Fantasy Empire, Dark Elves, Death Guard, Blood Angels (although painted up in Pink) and now I am totally in love with my Night Lords and I also have a smaller Necron army.

 

Some female members recently did a poll among female painters in the Facebook Warhammer Painting group, and for some strange reason, most girls collected the following armies:

- Necrons

- Death Guard

- Night Haunt

- Orks

None of them had gone for Sisters of Battle.

 

I personally am attracted to the hobby because of the setting. It is dark and brooding and horrific and without hope. And yes, while all citizens, regardless of gender, are the same as tools and meat for the Imperium, and I totally agree with female Guard regiments and heroic ship captains, I am still unsure if feminism is big on the agenda.

I do not think I would have been more attracted if, when I started 25 years ago, there were more female Empire generals in golden armour. That actually would have put me off Empire....

 

Anyways- I love your work here.

I love the designs.

I am agreeing with your mixed- gender background on a biological / physiological basis.

And you do not have to create awkward "boob" armour.

I would say go for it.

It is different and looks great.

 

But I totally get that you are ambivalent towards it, since I am ambivalent myself.

 

[Gamiel]

On 3/1/2023 at 6:55 PM, Brother Dougal said:

Alright… so we’ll have cross-Legion organizations that teach the specialties. Like the Wings of the Dark Angels. I’m thinking of calling them Temples. Temple of the Jaguar, Temple of the Serpent, Temple of the Owl, etc. etc.

Sounds good. I would probobly personally use "cuauhocelotl"/"cuāuhocēlōtl", and yes I know that for the Aztecs that term only involved the Eagle and Jaguar warriors but the Wh40k is full of terms that are used in ways that are how they really should be used. 

 

19 hours ago, Brother Dougal said:

So what do I do? How do I feel? What would work? I keep asking myself these things and I don’t have an answer. For the moment, I’m sticking with the original idea. But if a good enough way to integrate them could be found, I’d be open to it.

If you did do I think the best way would be to use standard SM bodies and female heads (here could you use heads with female hair and/or bling from Aztec/Maya/other-Mesoamerican-culture haircuts if you  can get such). If you are interested in this idea do I think this artist gallery - Kamazotz - can be of inspiration. 

 

[space wolf]

Truly great stuff, can't wait to see more!