Female Primarch Project Redux! Dawn Legion Ideaboard

[Brother Dougal]

Is there anywhere you can find info on Terra as it was before the Emperor conquered it? If I’m to make a history for my Legion before they met Tlatia, I want to make sure I don’t step on the toes of any other Legions.

[Firedrake Cordova]

I think lore on Terra pre/peri-Unification Wars is a bit thin on the ground, sadly.  

 

Lexicanum has articles on the Unification Wars, Terra/Old Night, and Age of Strife which might be a reasonable starting point..?

[Gamiel]

56 minutes ago, Firedrake Cordova said:

Terra/Old Night,

most of the geografic areas named there as a link mostly show information from the Unification War or Great Crusade

 

 

Also, it's fanon but I have used "Mesmerika" for the Mesoamerican area (give or take). 

 

And remember: there are no seas on Terra so you can have things happening in the "agro-stacks on Sinus Mexikanus* lowland" 

* or other 30k spelling of Golf of Mexico

Edited March 8, 2023 by Gamiel

[Brother Dougal]

Atlan. They were recruited from Atlan, and took part in the conquests of Merica and Hy Brasil.

 

I need to give them some flaws… physical and moral flaws. Thinking of borrowing something from the Emperor’s Nightmares, and giving them a faulty Catalepsean Node. Did I spell that right? The organ that regulates sleep. Make them a little hyperactive when awake, and make them heavy sleepers when they sleep.

[Grotsmasha]

I like that flaw, it would potentially (even devastatingly) effect dreadnoughts in the chapter 

[Brother Dougal]

Some people ask me if I incorporate the human sacrifice and bloodletting that Aztecs were known for, but others keep linking that to Chaos worship, especially Khorne, enough so that I think I want to avoid that.

 

Instead, how about focusing on a different angle: the taking of prisoners. In the Aztec military, one of the foremost ways of winning glory and advancing in the ranks was by taking enemy prisoners. I think that’s a unique enough niche that it could play a role in the Legion. Award honors and glory to Marines who manage to take important targets alive.

 

Instead of sacrifice, they could be used instead for negotiation, hostage purposes, interrogation. If they’re human. And if they’re xenos, they could be taken for research, study, or something else. Something darker, maybe. The Selenar are geneticists, after all. Biology isn’t so far removed from that.

 

Orks wouldn’t be worth very much, since it’s already so hard to kill them in the first place. Only the biggest or strangest specimens would be worthy of recognition. Fragile Eldar, on the other hand, could be very prized.

[Brother Dougal]

I’m always wondering if I’m giving too much stuff to my Legion. I know it’s my Legion, and just a fan project, maybe I shouldn’t worry about it. But I also want people to like my creation and I worry that if I go overboard with the details and customization then others will say I’m a Mary-Sue or something.

 

I wish there was some way to measure how much stuff a Legion has, so I could compare it to others. There’s Legions like the Iron Hands, who I summarize as have their Clans, their Cyber-psychosis, and their tempers. Then there’s Legions like the Dark Angels, who have the Tetragrammaton, sub-Orders, the Watchers in the Dark, the Fallen, medieval influences, etc. Where should my Legion fall on the scale?

 

(Updated Organizational chart for all you guys)

 

 

[Firedrake Cordova]

I think the biggest failing of fan creations is making them too powerful - if they were that potent, we'd have heard of them in the main background and it breaks immersion; if they are a minor player it's entirely reasonable that you wouldn't have heard about them when you're looking at a whole galaxy for them to hide in - so as long as you stay away from that, you should be good. I'm not familiar with the legion-era background, but I'd say maybe look at what some of the smaller legions had (e.g. Salamanders), and set that as your limit?

 

Either way, you've certainly put a lot of work into this project and deserve credit for that.  

[Brother Dougal]

In my opinion, every Legion can be summarized in a few short blurbs that boil them down to their most basic ingredients. That usually comes down to One part combat doctrine, One part cultural influence, One part temperament.

 

Raven Guard: Sneaky, emo, Celtic Marines

White Scars: Speedy, wild, Mongolian Marines

Ultramarines: Poster-boy, by-the-book, Roman Marines

Salamanders: Nice-guy, blacksmithing, Pyromaniac Marines

Iron Hands: Cyborg, super-tough, Scottish Marines

 

I’ve got the cultural influence (Aztec), I’m working on the temperament (outdoorsy? Nature-loving?)…

 

The combat doctrine is what I’ve always struggled with. I can come up with all sorts of ideas for special units (Jaguar Scouts, Super-Apothecaries) but putting that all into a style of combat… Getting the temperament down might help with that. All the animal totems and such keep making me think of jungle warfare, which is guerrilla warfare, yes? That kind of sneaky stuff is covered by the Raven Guard, Night Lords, and Alpha Legion. Can I put a spin on it that makes it stand out enough to give it to the Dawn Legion?

[Boc]

If you're going for an Aztec influence, is there a version of the Zodiac that they used specific to the region? Might be a better fit

 

Either way, using astrological signs in a secular society is so, so beautifully on the nose for the Crusade era

[Firedrake Cordova]

12 hours ago, Brother Dougal said:

The combat doctrine is what I’ve always struggled with. 

Rather than looking at it from the background perspective (i.e. "the background I've made suggests in my head they should do x"), is there any particular doctrine/combat approach that grabs your personal attention? If so, I'd just use that.  

 

 

12 hours ago, Brother Dougal said:

Can I put a spin on it that makes it stand out enough to give it to the Dawn Legion?

Sure..? They could simply be heavily specialised in combat in a specific biome.  

Edited March 29, 2023 by Firedrake Cordova

[Brother Dougal]

On 3/28/2023 at 10:05 PM, Boc said:

If you're going for an Aztec influence, is there a version of the Zodiac that they used specific to the region? Might be a better fit

 

Either way, using astrological signs in a secular society is so, so beautifully on the nose for the Crusade era

Unfortunately, while we do know that Mayans and Aztecs studied constellations, I wasn’t able to find any information on what names they used for them. We only have a rough idea of the ones they discovered, although it is believed that they recognized some of the same groups of stars as the Greek Zodiac.

[Brother Dougal]

Minor notes about the Dawn Legion that I’ve considered for errata:

 

- Legion battleships are decorated with substantial amounts of plant life, supported by large water reserve tanks and solar lamps. The air is noticeably fresher as a result.

 

- The Legion awards glory to capturing important targets alive. To help facilitate this, grav-weapons are highly sought after for their non-lethal settings, and sometimes awarded to Marines who prove themselves in battle.

 

- Mortals are often referred to as ‘mice’ by the Astartes of the Dawn Legion. The term can be either endearing or derogatory depending on how it’s used. The Primarch personally does not like it when it’s used as an insult.

 

- An earlier version of the Dawn Legion had a harmless xenos race as serfs instead of a Selenar Cult. I sometimes wonder which is would be more heretical: Female Marines, or friendly xenos?

[Kennyjapan]

Love the idea and aesthetic you're going for! I think you've given your legion a really good amount of specifics to flesh out their individuality without going too far. And tbh I think you've still got Plenty of room to add more before it reaches that stage - looking at DA. And now that I think about it there is not a single thing "standard" about the 10kSons so i wouldn't be too concerned with how many things you do Legion specific wise. Also everyone is forbidden from speaking about the lost legions by the Big E himself so you're pretty well covered on how to fit them in. i.e. they could well have served alongside other legions in already named battles, but if their entire existence has been expunged from Imperial records so would their involvement, they actions either ignored or attributed to other legions, etc.

 

Im really curious as to your idea's about their end. As a lost Legion its "presumed" in standard fluff they get slapped by the Wolves for doing..... something? And then forbidden to be spoken about again.

Are you thinking about keeping to those presumptions,

• In which case, does their Catalepsean Flaw have something to do with it? A Sleepwalking/Nightmare/accidentalSleepMurder sort of thing? or a Chaos'y style nightmare's unto slow decent into crazy, etc.
• Or is it a Morality issue (The taking prisoners got silly)(Had Xenos, however harmless, in their service), pushed into it through innocuous pretty swords EC style, etc.

Or are you thinking of going against the implied outcome, like a Tlatia and her Legion are evidently very nature conscious and so eventually are disillusioned by all the death and destruction, and so she quits the Great Crusade and takes her Legion to sail out into the stars looking for a better Galaxy, reverse Tyranid style, and that really bums Papa Emps out so he forbids talk of the daughter who told him to stuff it?

 

Having some of their end position planned may help with their beginning too

Really looking forward to seeing where all of this goes!

[Brother Dougal]

On 4/5/2023 at 7:06 AM, Kennyjapan said:

 

Im really curious as to your idea's about their end. As a lost Legion its "presumed" in standard fluff they get slapped by the Wolves for doing..... something? And then forbidden to be spoken about again.

Are you thinking about keeping to those presumptions,

• In which case, does their Catalepsean Flaw have something to do with it? A Sleepwalking/Nightmare/accidentalSleepMurder sort of thing? or a Chaos'y style nightmare's unto slow decent into crazy, etc.
• Or is it a Morality issue (The taking prisoners got silly)(Had Xenos, however harmless, in their service), pushed into it through innocuous pretty swords EC style, etc.

 

Honestly, I’ve been avoiding that part of the story for as long as I can. Ever since reading the short story ‘The Chamber at the End of Memory’ I’ve felt like GW has really oversold the circumstances of their loss. I mean, really, something so horrific that the Primarchs themselves volunteered to be mind-wiped? Worse even than Horus’ Heresy and siblings selling their souls to literal demons? No, I’m not going to try to top that.

 

I had an idea, a while back, of a group within her Legion being corrupted by Chaos. They would attempt to frame Tlatia for some horrific crime to get her censured by Terra so they could seize control of the Legion, but would be found out by loyal elements before the plan could come to fruition. In desperation, they triggered a temporal Warp Rift through some sorcerous means that envelops the fleet and takes the Primarch through time.

 

That’s all I have right now though. Fairly straightforward, keeping the details vague so I can change it later on if I think of something better.

[Firedrake Cordova]

Sounds good to me.  I was going to suggest the generic "entire legion was thought to be 'lost' in the warp, and covered up by the Imperium's propaganda machine due to the grievous loss", but your version is definitely better!  

 

Also, I think keeping things vague is sensible - GW's lore writers have been deliberately doing so to great effect.

[Lysimachus]

I've always quite liked the idea that the 2 lost Legions didn't do anything nearly as bad as Horus Heresy, but at the time it was considered horrendous. Thus being wiped from records, but by the end of the HH the loyalists would have been glad to have them around, but it was too late by then! Feels properly grimdark?

 

Also, if you are thinking about a vassal xenos species, the Jokaero are an official example of xenos that are used and tolerated by some Imperials.

[Brother Dougal]

Well I can’t go for both, that’d be overdoing it. It has to be one or the other.

 

My mind’s leaning toward Selenar; they’re already a part of the setting, vague enough that there’s lots of room to expand on them, and I think lots of storytelling potential. A splinter group that joins the Legion in some support capacity would be interesting to see.

 

Plus, I did my research. Like certain Asian cultures, the Aztecs saw a Rabbit in the Moon instead of a Man like Europeans did. Rabbits would link well to the animal themes I’m already using for the Legion. And from the short story ‘Sons of the Selenar’ we know that Apothecaries learn some secrets that come from the Moon, like how Techmarines are linked to Mars. So having the Selenar work with the Apothecaries makes a lot of sense.

 

The biggest con to Selenar is the whole toxic ruckus about Female Space Marines, which I’ve got super mixed feelings on. My Primarch is Female, but the Legion is Male. That’s always how it’s been for me, and I don’t want to get caught up in a big culture war over the issue. Hmmmm… if I go with the Selenar, what would they do on the battlefield?

 

Wulfen are units. Death Company are units. Do I want the Selenar to be a special unit? Maybe to serve as Legion Apothecaries?

 

Would it make more sense to use them like Watchers in the Dark, or servitors, as attachments? I think of Grimaldus from the Black Templars, whose unit comes with 3 units attached, carrying relics. Perhaps a Dawn Legion Apothecary would have Selenar support figures around him, providing him with advanced tools and assistance?

 

So much to consider.

[Chaplin Bald]

there seems to be a good amount of paradox within your chapter Radiant but Soulless, Primarch but Human, stealthy terminators, etc. Personally I think you should embrace the whole paradox-ish theme.

[Brother Dougal]

Embrace the paradox.. hmmm.

 

maybe I’m thinking too much about a defining tactic. I mean, what would you call the Salamanders combat tactics besides ‘Fire’?

 

Eagle and Jaguar units are meant to be that way. Opposite yet complementary. Kind of like the Tau and their two combat styles, Mont’ka and Kauyon. Could I do something similar with the Dawn Legion?

 

It might mean remaking the Eagle units from commanders to something else. I’d be okay with that if the concept as a whole worked out. But what would they be? Something opposite but complementary of my reconnaissance Jaguars…

[Firedrake Cordova]

On 7/23/2023 at 8:27 PM, Brother Dougal said:

what would you call the Salamanders combat tactics besides ‘Fire’?

Primarily short-range firefights  Whilst the Salamanders do use heat-based weapons a lot, they don't use them exclusively (their Tactical Squad box had a multi-melta and plasma gun in it). I'm not really up on the most recent background, but that's certainly the case with the 3rd Ed background, which is what drew me towards them...

 

On 7/23/2023 at 8:27 PM, Brother Dougal said:

Eagle and Jaguar units are meant to be that way. Opposite yet complementary. Kind of like the Tau and their two combat styles, Mont’ka and Kauyon. Could I do something similar with the Dawn Legion?

Sounds reasonable to me. The hammer/anvil split is one that's fairly common (one unit fixes, the other pummels from afar), so going with a similar split sounds wouldn't be jarring to me.  

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Really interesting discussion going on here.

 

For what it's worth, I really like Lysimachus' take's take on the lost legion thing - something deemed egregious at the time but really not so bad in light of the heresy that came later.  Wanting to assimilate rather than exterminate xenos is something that could definitely qualify - which ties in with the "capture, not kill" theme the OP is exploring.

 

On the doctrinal theme, maybe explore the issue of paradox some more?  One thing that we have seen in the GW background for a long time is scout directed terminated strikes, but I don't think we've ever seen both elements of that combined in one army theme before - we've seen hard hitting battle groups (space marine first companies) and scout/infiltration battle groups (space marine scout companies) and even seen them working together, but I don't recall having seen both elements operate as a conceptual whole.  I know the concept of hammer and anvil had been mentioned earlier, and this is one take on that.

Edited September 1, 2023 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Chaplin Bald]

if memory serves many of the terminators would deploy as stealthy one man artillery platforms, and during the heresy many of the standard power armor designs were extremely limiting in terms of speed (likely why the legion switched to scout armor). 

 

So how would a light mobile scout/shock force and a slow heavy artillery force work in an interesting way other than spot and decimate. My personal idea is something along the lines of swiftly attacking an interior/ unexpected position, however making sure enemy communications get out about the attack. Therefore reinforcements leave their little hole only to get obliterated by the hidden artillery gunners. 

 

There are some conflicts with other views of the chapter, such as taking prisoners, and I don't want to wright your story for you so this is just an idea you are free to modify.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Chaplin Bald
words no word right

[Servant of Dante]

I haven't been active on the B&C in forever but I wanted to say hi even though I don't have much to contribute :D This is a really cool project.

 

I think about the original thread for this project periodically. Iirc there was some fan fic in there about Tlatia dueling Sanguinius? Maybe I'm thinking of something else but it's a shame the original thread seems to be gone. (Also yes the whole female primarch thing does something for me as a trans woman)

 

Edit: actually I do have a thought, since there's gender going on here. Statistically there will be female space marines. As in some space mariens will be trans (whether or not they are allowed to be open). This might be outside the scope of your project but with the Dawn Legion already having a female primarch, well it seems like something interesting to think about.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Servant of Dante
I have something to contribute, actually

[Chaplin Bald]

“For the Dream! For the Outcast! For the Emperor!”– battle-cry of the Dawn Lords https://web.archive.org/web/20161113082355/http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327453-female-primarch-project-what-is-this-heresy/?p=4550934 heres the link