How many official Dark Angels "loyalist" survived the HH?

[Commander Nicky]

Hey Guys

 

I have a question regarding the Dark Angel legion, more precise their strength/numbers. I recall from the Horus Heresy book nine, that the 1st legion consists of either 180k or 200k legionaries. I also recall, from some other source, that the Dark Angels only official founded 4 other Chapters (Angels of Absolution, Angels of Redemption, Angels of Vengeance and Lion Sables) during the second founding.

Was the 1st Legion reduced to 2,5-2,7% of their initial strength duirng the HH? If so how and where did they loose so many?

I have pin-pointed some numbers and some happening:
The Lion takes 70k with him for the Thramas Crusade. I assume several dies here. Of those remaining (the Thramas Crusader Vets.) the Lion, as I understand, takes 20k with him to Imperium Secundus, and the rest follows Corswain (unknown numbers). By the time the short novel Dreadwing,takes place less that halve of the 20k the Lion took with him are alive. Corswain recieve, reinforcement from Caliban and at a time of the Siege of Terra has 10k legionaries with him. So at the time of the Thramas Crusade there are 100k unacounted for. Some could have join both Corswain or the Lion later on and those on Caliban are not accounted for. There are also others who are fighting their own battles during the HH. But it still seems a lot to lose 100k legionaries in piecemeal battles and campaigns during the HH. I mean they neither fall into a large ambush like the Drop Site Massacare or get mauled in a gigantic battle like the Space Wolves does.

Is there something I have falled to see?

[Cactus]

There was a small disagreement when the Lion returned to Caliban that could account for a few more casualties, but we don't talk about that.

[Galron]

While not officially confirmed, the Star Phantoms grabbed up quite a few of the leftover Dreadwing,  were not fans of taking the blame for Caliban and distanced themselves permanently from the other Dark Angels while keeping the heraldry. 

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, Commander Nicky said:

I assume several dies here [at Thramas]

Crusade notes the Dark Angels ended the conflict, "with no more than 10,000 of its warriors slain in combat"

 

Assuming no massive retcons in the future, the Dark Angels were the driving force for the majority of the Scouring. I think it would be safe to assume that many of their casualties prior to the Second Founding are going to be from that and the Battle of Caliban.

[Raziel-TX]

6 hours ago, Galron said:

While not officially confirmed, the Star Phantoms grabbed up quite a few of the leftover Dreadwing,  were not fans of taking the blame for Caliban and distanced themselves permanently from the other Dark Angels while keeping the heraldry. 

I’m still stuck in a lot of older fluff so I may be behind the power curve here but are the star phantoms confirmed to be DA offshoots?  

[bushman101]

How far back do the starting numbers go? The Rangdan Xenocides were rough on the 1st

[Commander Nicky]

2 hours ago, bushman101 said:

How far back do the starting numbers go? The Rangdan Xenocides were rough on the 1st

The figures (180k-200k) are at the start of the HH.

[MegaVolt87]

Whats the new lore count on DA second founding sucessors? That's a good indicator of DA loyalist survivors into the 40k era. 

[Galron]

On 3/14/2023 at 9:28 PM, Raziel-TX said:

I’m still stuck in a lot of older fluff so I may be behind the power curve here but are the star phantoms confirmed to be DA offshoots?  

Its never been officially confirmed. They use the same heraldry and it is hinted at in several places. In addition, FW has said that to suggest it to the Star Phantoms will result in a fight, and if you ask the Dark Angels, they will change the subject.

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

Hummm not many. Just in the Second Founding were 3 Chapters founded...

Officially. You know, Dark Angels and Secrets, Secrets and Dark Angels.

It's possible there were more founded and the ancestry hidden or erased. But no more than a dozen between Second and Third Foundation. Dark Angels get lot casualties at the end of the Heresy and the Scourging.

[Karhedron]

On 3/15/2023 at 6:24 AM, Commander Nicky said:

The figures (180k-200k) are at the start of the HH.

 

What is the source of those figures? My recollection (which may be faulty) is that number was prior to the Rangdan Xenocides which cost the DAs around 1/3 of their numbers and led to the UMs overtaking them numerically. That would put them at closer to 120K at the start of the HH which leaves far fewer Marines unaccounted for. Also that number may include the 30K-ish who were on Caliban.

 

Also we can assume the DAs lost significant numbers when they were busy purging the Traitor legion homeworlds after Imperium Secundus. While those systems did not have Legions defending them, they would still have had heavy defences, both Astartes and Mortals. The Dark Angels took on Chemos, Barbarus and Nuceria in swift succession. While victorious in all cases, it is reasonable to assume they took significant casualties.

[Astartes Consul]

None. 

[Commander Nicky]

37 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

What is the source of those figures? My recollection (which may be faulty) is that number was prior to the Rangdan Xenocides which cost the DAs around 1/3 of their numbers and led to the UMs overtaking them numerically. That would put them at closer to 120K at the start of the HH which leaves far fewer Marines unaccounted for. Also that number may include the 30K-ish who were on Caliban.

 

Also we can assume the DAs lost significant numbers when they were busy purging the Traitor legion homeworlds after Imperium Secundus. While those systems did not have Legions defending them, they would still have had heavy defences, both Astartes and Mortals. The Dark Angels took on Chemos, Barbarus and Nuceria in swift succession. While victorious in all cases, it is reasonable to assume they took significant casualties.

It says somwhere in the Horus Heresy Book nine - Crusade (pg.101-113) that at the start of the HH they numbered 180k. It then later tell that there where slightly less than 200k (a little confusing if you ask me). during the three the Rangdan Xenocides the 1st Legion lost more than 50k legionaries in these wars (actually they lost 5k in the 1st war and 50k in the 3rd) which was why they lost the status at the largest legion to the 13th legion. The Rangdan Xenocides, however, took place in the late 800s.M30, more than 100 years before the HH.

I agree with you Karhedron. It would make much more sense if the 1st legion was smaller in number with these casualties...

[Mandragola]

The writers are very careful not to be specific about any of this stuff. This allows us to make up our own stories to fill in the gaps they leave us. Might there have been other chapters created in the second founding that we don't know about? Yes. There are any number of things that might have happened to the information about who they were in the 10,000 years between the Heresy and "present day" 40k. Maybe they didn't exist; maybe they were secret; maybe they turned traitor and the DA purged all knowledge of them; etc. etc. etc.

 

There are chapters like the Blood Ravens who don't know who their founder was - not that I'm suggesting that they are DAs. And it's pretty odd to have chapters that don't know their heritage, given how important ritual is to them all. Others may know but choose to keep it secret, for whatever reason.

 

10,000 years is a really, really long time. Lots of stuff can happen. the weird thing is arguably that we have the nine first founding chapters still at all, let alone in a form recognisable from the heresy.

[Karhedron]

5 minutes ago, Mandragola said:

And it's pretty odd to have chapters that don't know their heritage, given how important ritual is to them all.

 

If they are founded by the High Lords some Chapters may simply never have been given that information.

[Mandragola]

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

If they are founded by the High Lords some Chapters may simply never have been given that information.

I guess so, but how would that happen in practice? They’d have to get some geneseed from an existing chapter and implant it into some kids, who they’d then equip and send out to go and be a chapter of marines. Even then, why not tell them where the geneseed came from?

 

I’d have thought a far more logical option would be to get a hundred or so marines from an existing chapter and set them up, with a lot of support to recruit and train up to full strength.

 

All the new Primaris chapters should know the source of their geneseed unless it’s being deliberately hidden from them, which would be weird. There’s that chapter who look like they might well be emperor’s children. If that’s what they are they must know it, as they’ve painted phoenixes on themselves and act a bit like ECs.

[Galron]

The geneseed comes from the Mechanicum who take tithes from all the various chapters for "purity" testing. It's well established that they have the ability to mindwipe marines to prevent knowledge of certain forbidden things while leaving their learned experiences intact. Finding a few tens of thousand kids in the galaxy hoping 1000ish of them survive the implantation process and testing without anyone finding out isnt too hard to imagine as well. If the tech priests choose to not reveal the source of the geneseed then its not too hard to keep it secret. 

[Mandragola]

Fair point. In a massively dysfunctional society like the imperium it’s not hard to imagine people keeping stuff secret for no better reason than “because”. 

[Felix Antipodes]

It would be in the character of the DA, on hearing of Guilliman’s edict, to carve off a couple of thousand brothers and send them off to a remote part of the Imperium.  With orders to set up as new Chapters while playing down/obscuring their origins and wait until they were needed by the rest of the Unforgiven.

 

As far as whether a Chapter set up by the High Lords would know their geneseed origin.  It is possible the High Lords wanted to avoid this knowledge being imparted to avoid the sort of informal fraternity that most of the ‘original nine’ seem to have with their known successors.  I think the Inquisition would have done something similar, possibly with deep hypno-conditioning as others have mentioned.

[Noserenda]

Its not even informal with the Dark Angels and Imperial fists :D  At least Dante had to put work in to reunite the Blood Angels! Not sure about the Ultramarines but honestly i think its in their character to organise generally.