Wh40k 10th Edition Datasheet Changes

[Noserenda]

I suspect its because you dont need squad size limits when playing the game... Theyll be in the army list/codex as usual i expect, alongside points values and possibly options. Points especially would quickly become wrong and they hate invalidating stuff like this, its one of the few problem Titanicus had putting everything on the cards and not wanting to change even obvious misprints or problem units. 

Plus whilst i love using cards to play, and amry book (Or e version preferably) is definitely better to list build with anyhow.

 

[TrawlingCleaner]

19 minutes ago, Quantum said:

No mention of number of models per unit on the datacard. Or point cost.

 

I assume that has simply been edited out from these teasers to avoid spoilers? I cannot imagine these will be removed from the datacards when the whole ideas is that all relevant information about the unit is on them.

 

If they are moving towards AoS as a whole, the points costs may be on a seperate page entirely, similar to:

 

Unit sizes are fixed and require you to use reinforcement points to expand them up to a higher model count, different weapons are factored into the points costs of the unit etc.

Perhaps the way they do things going forward

[Warhead01]

Have to ask, what are reinforcement point and why do they matter ?

[Karhedron]

35 minutes ago, Warhead01 said:

Have to ask, what are reinforcement point and why do they matter ?

 

There is a nice simple explanation of reinforcing units for AoS here. Whether they use the same system for 40K 10th ed remains to be seen.

 

https://spikeybits.com/2021/06/new-reinforcement-rules-for-age-of-sigmar-3-0.html

[Doobles57]

40 minutes ago, Warhead01 said:

Have to ask, what are reinforcement point and why do they matter ?

Reinforcing a unit in AoS essentially doubles its size. Or you can reinforce it twice to triple its size. In a regular 2000 point game you have 4 reinforcement points to spend in this way.

[Scribe]

1 minute ago, Doobles88 said:

Reinforcing a unit in AoS essentially doubles its size. Or you can reinforce it twice to triple its size. In a regular 2000 point game you have 4 reinforcement points to spend in this way.

 

Don't like that, at all.

[techsoldaten]

3 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

There is a nice simple explanation of reinforcing units for AoS here. Whether they use the same system for 40K 10th ed remains to be seen.

 

https://spikeybits.com/2021/06/new-reinforcement-rules-for-age-of-sigmar-3-0.html

Please, no.

 

This method incentivizes reinforcing the biggest, baddest units while diminishing the meatshield / horde aspect of the game. Instead of doubling up on Cultists, Terminators would get all the attention.

 

Feels like GW in a state of flux when it comes to points / power levels / "free" wargear. While I get they are trying to reduce the cognitive load involved in crafting an army, I wonder if they're actually simplifying anything. The PL games I played in 8th were absurdly skewed towards one side or the other, the free wargear in the current campaign books just confuses me at various levels, and ChatGPT can write army lists.

 

Feels like they're swimming against the current and choking on the surf. 

[Karhedron]

I am also not a fan of the AoS style of reinforcement points. I don't like being restricted to multiples of X for my unit size. There is no guarantee that everything will be AoS-ified.

[Halandaar]

I don't think we'll see an AoS style system (buy 5 guys for this fixed price, reinforce with another 5 guys for this fixed price), but I think we could see a Heresy style one (5 man squad costs 100 points, additional guys are 19 points each) as that sort of has the best of both worlds. You get a headline price for the minimum unit size which makes quick/starter army building somewhat less mathsy, and accomodates the squad leader having a different profile and/or loadout to the other members, but still allows the granularity of adding individual models here and there.

  

20 minutes ago, techsoldaten said:

This method incentivizes reinforcing the biggest, baddest units while diminishing the meatshield / horde aspect of the game. Instead of doubling up on Cultists, Terminators would get all the attention.

 

That remains subjective, because your hard-hitting Elites might actually be better off in 2 separate units rather than one larger one (MSU is a thing for a reason after all) while your objective sitters might only be any use to you if they're at max size so they can hang on for the longest possible amount of time. 

 

In any case, only Battleline units can be double-reinforced in AoS so only the meatshields/hordes can be 30 strong anyway.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Halandaar

[Scribe]

I was going to buy in, but I just need to sit and wait. They could absolutely do this right, or it could be a complete disaster of "You see whats on that box, thats 100% the data sheet, down to the unit size in multiples of x Boxes."

 

Thats not the solution.

[Nephaston]

Reinforcement could work, if it's limited to non-elite one wound models units or swarm base units. That way absolute maniacs with hundreds of gants or whiteshields could go hogwild without enabling 20-man custodes squads or other madness.

[Rain]

35 minutes ago, Scribe said:

I was going to buy in, but I just need to sit and wait. They could absolutely do this right, or it could be a complete disaster of "You see whats on that box, thats 100% the data sheet, down to the unit size in multiples of x Boxes."

 

Thats not the solution.

Isn’t this already kind of the case? Coming back after a long break, I was shocked that my unit champions could no longer take powerfists, just because the current box doesn’t come with them, and kitbashing is apparently verboten.

 

Hell, World Eaters lost the option to take Terminator Lords because, I guess, the Chaos Termi Lord model can be built as a sorcerer as well, and as that’s obviously not an option for WE. So, Termi Lords have been stricken entirely to save our smooth little brains the hassle of figuring out that we shouldn’t build the kit as a sorc for an army that can’t take sorcs.

 

The real irony is the juxtaposition of the dumbed down list building with the bookkeeping and complexity of the actual game. A Frater somewhere on here compared it to a legal proceeding which feels right on the money.

 

 

[Scribe]

9 minutes ago, Rain said:

Isn’t this already kind of the case? Coming back after a long break, I was shocked that my unit champions could no longer take powerfists, just because the current box doesn’t come with them, and kitbashing is apparently verboten.

 

Hell, World Eaters lost the option to take Terminator Lords because, I guess, the Chaos Termi Lord model can be built as a sorcerer as well, and as that’s obviously not an option for WE. So, Termi Lords have been stricken entirely to save our smooth little brains the hassle of figuring out that we shouldn’t build the kit as a sorc for an army that can’t take sorcs.

 

The real irony is the juxtaposition of the dumbed down list building with the bookkeeping and complexity of the actual game. A Frater somewhere on here compared it to a legal proceeding which feels right on the money.

 

 

 

Yes, and this was just one more reason I was turned off by this edition.

 

Hell, at this point I've been a World Eaters fan the majority of my life. I was so annoyed with CSM and then the absolute bare bones of WE books, I felt ZERO excitement with the release.

 

Its just terrible.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Scribe

[Warhead01]

Getting free rules and having a chance to see what this whole this is all about is fantastic. If I don't like how this all plays out at least I wont be out a bunch of money. 
I'm not excited about the reinforcing units thing.  It may be balanced in some way but it doesn't sound good to me, not even reasonable really.  

[TrawlingCleaner]

I don't think Reinforcement points would fit 40k that well, to be honest, although with the push to be more like AoS I wouldn't be overly surprised to see it

 

53 minutes ago, Scribe said:

I was going to buy in, but I just need to sit and wait. They could absolutely do this right, or it could be a complete disaster of "You see whats on that box, thats 100% the data sheet, down to the unit size in multiples of x Boxes."

 

Thats not the solution.

 

Going by current trends, I don't see the "What you get in the box is the only equipment a unit gets" thing changing and likely to only tighten going forward

[Handsome Fred]

1 hour ago, Halandaar said:

I don't think we'll see an AoS style system (buy 5 guys for this fixed price, reinforce with another 5 guys for this fixed price), but I think we could see a Heresy style one (5 man squad costs 100 points, additional guys are 19 points each) as that sort of has the best of both worlds. You get a headline price for the minimum unit size which makes quick/starter army building somewhat less mathsy, and accomodates the squad leader having a different profile and/or loadout to the other members, but still allows the granularity of adding individual models here and there.

 

 

Heresy has a higher unit cost for the first 5/10 boys due you pay the sergeant. 

[Scribe]

1 minute ago, TrawlingCleaner said:

Going by current trends, I don't see the "What you get in the box is the only equipment a unit gets" thing changing and likely to only tighten going forward

 

Agreed. Adding on even more 'just buy the box, dont worry about army building' by fixing the unit size/upgrade path as well? It was already a huge turn off, and codifying it just makes it worse.

 

If I want 6 CSM in a squad, I want 6. If I want 8, I want 8.

 

"No sorry, its 5 or 10." Thats just not going to work.

[Rain]

13 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Yes, and this was just one more reason I was turned off by this edition.

 

Hell, at this point I've been a World Eaters fan the majority of my life. I was so annoyed with CSM and then the absolute bare bones of WE books, I felt ZERO excitement with the release.

 

Its just terrible.

 

Well, at least World Eaters got a codex. I remember the dark days of 4th, when cult Legion armies got a cult troops choice, but their elites and HQ's were somehow less culty than the troops, lacking many of the inbuilt bonuses that the cult troops units had. Also, all Legion specific bonuses and restrictions were removed, so everyone was differently colored Black Legion. As to the WE codex, I was disappointed by the lack of Red Butchers and butcher surgeons, especially after the fluff kept mentioning the latter, and Eighbound look ridiculous, but World Eaters to me were always best exemplified by a Berzerker horde with some Terminators, Dreads, and HQ's anyway. Nice and simple. Like a big axe.

 

That said, I have not played a game of 40k since 6th edition, so I admit my opinion on the matter is academic at best. I've just been building, kitbashing, and painting some boys in red and brass while my wife watches trashy reality TV, occasionally making disparaging comments about whatever is going on onscreen to seem involved. I managed to snag some old school Chaos marine kits on eBay, and bought a bunch of Forge World kits to combine them with so that each Berzerker is unique. I'm not a huge fan of the new model aesthetic, I'll stick with Forge World, even if the scale is different.

 

I might try to dip my toe into playing again in 10th assuming they trim out a lot of the BS, and get back to "move, shoot, assault" removing casualties as you go, and with fewer "points" to track during the game. 

[Scribe]

2 minutes ago, Rain said:

 

Well, at least World Eaters got a codex. I remember the dark days of 4th, when cult Legion armies got a cult troops choice, but their elites and HQ's were somehow less culty than the troops, lacking many of the inbuilt bonuses that the cult troops units had. Also, all Legion specific bonuses and restrictions were removed, so everyone was differently colored Black Legion. As to the WE codex, I was disappointed by the lack of Red Butchers and butcher surgeons, especially after the fluff kept mentioning the latter, and Eighbound look ridiculous, but World Eaters to me were always best exemplified by a Berzerker horde with some Terminators, Dreads, and HQ's anyway. Nice and simple. Like a big axe.

 

Its a legit downgrade. I'd rather have almost any other editions CSM codex. How garbage is that? I'm not asking for anything crazy either, but yeah its all bad to me. Other than Angron looking cool. :D

[ZeroWolf]

I suspect that some of the WE stuff was held back with 10th being literal months away (same with the LoV and Guard since they're supposed to be getting more). Though I feel sorry for their players as they're stuck either waiting for ages for their 2nd wave or hit quickly for the update.

[Halandaar]

1 hour ago, Handsome Fred said:

Heresy has a higher unit cost for the first 5/10 boys due you pay the sergeant. 

 

I know? I said as much:

 

2 hours ago, Halandaar said:

You get a headline price for the minimum unit size which makes quick/starter army building somewhat less mathsy, and accomodates the squad leader having a different profile and/or loadout to the other members, but still allows the granularity of adding individual models here and there.

 

[Lemondish]

I feel like folks are thinking that this "simplified, not simple" approach will apply in every single part of the game. I'm not so sure that needs to happen since list building doesn't actually happen at the table.

[Kastor Krieg]

OK, at this point, with chapter-specific rules completely gone. What makes my Black Templars even be Black Templars anymore? :|

[Blindhamster]

21 minutes ago, Kastor Krieg said:

OK, at this point, with chapter-specific rules completely gone. What makes my Black Templars even be Black Templars anymore? :|

Suspect it’ll be like age or sigmar and there will still be a trait

[KnightofSigismund]

25 minutes ago, Kastor Krieg said:

OK, at this point, with chapter-specific rules completely gone. What makes my Black Templars even be Black Templars anymore? :|

Your RIGHTEOUS ZEAL brother.