The Lion!

[Sea Creature]

I was able to get one.

[phandaal]

6 minutes ago, Sea Creature said:

I was able to get one.

 

Thanks for the input, Steve, but that is not really the point.

 

The point is that there is no need to dredge up things to argue about after people have already moved on. Especially not about rules that are going to change almost as soon as they go live.

[Skywrath]

6 hours ago, Sea Creature said:

I was able to get one.

I believe we were talking about the balance of the 40k with Dark Angels. If memory serves you vigorously defended the nerfs. This doesn't seem to be referencing that - what is the context of the statement?

 

On a completely unrelated side-note - you remind me of someone, someone who I interacted with in earlier times. Your sentence structure and mannerisms are similar, and he also was fairly absolute with his statements.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Skywrath
Simplified sentences

[ValourousHeart]

7 hours ago, WGXH said:

 

I don't think you are wrong assessing his datasheet on the whole- I expected it to be about what it is, though had hoped for more- Inner Cricle mattering (though that didn't last till he was out anyway), Ravenwing/Deathwing keywords, multiple tier warlord trait ala Magnus/Mortarion... so much could have been done and wasn't.

 

But I think 9/10 Imperial players, or even those involved in the lore, would expect The Emperor's Shield (tm) to at least be substantially better than your average Storm Shield, defensively- never mind the 'mass-produced' Relic such as The Shield Eternal.

 

Imagine if The Emperor's Sword was worse than a Power Sword? That's the level of negativity surrounding the Shield, because that is the perception.

 

If we are going to ignore everything else and just focus on the save number, then yes I can see your point.  However most models holding Storm Shields are T4, not T6.  They also don't have 9 Wounds.  A lot more goes into a units ability to stay on the table top... T, W, Save, Inv Save and other factors like Number of Models in the unit, or LOS, or counting as in dense cover if over X inches away.  The list goes on and on.

 

As for The Shield Eternal I think we have to balance the difference between in universe one of a kind items and the player base who tend to be worse than junior high girls when it comes to being just a carbon copy of the person next to you.  I think most relics and chapter command are over used, which is why I like crusade because it rank locks those things.

 

It doesn't make sense that Abaddon would personally lead a half dozen of his rank and file warriors to check a random space hulk for some emails.  Certainly he has better things to do like launching his next failed attempt to take over the Imperium.

 

And it isn't the weapon, it is the man wielding it that matters.

 

I'm certain that if we ever got to see the Emperor's profile and special rules, we would discover that he can only be hit on 6+ and you have to reroll successes, only wounded on 6+ and you have to reroll successes.  Then his disappointing shield gives him a 4++ but because he is omniscient he gets to reroll that 4++, and he'll have some other rule that says weapons can only do one damage to him, and then he gets to respawn if you ever kill him, and instead of having to wait for the next turn, he gets placed on the board at the start of the next phase.  Should I go on?

 

6 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

Who are you arguing with though? People have moved on to other topics. There is a new edition in 2 months. The Lion's current rules are irrelevant.

 

More power to you if you can even get a copy of the Lion in time to have it ready for any significant number of games in what is left of 9th edition.

 

Yeah, I hang out in some dark places on the internet where they complain about everything.  My wife tells me I shouldn't hang out there.  But I'm to stubborn to admit she is right.

[phandaal]

2 hours ago, ValourousHeart said:

Yeah, I hang out in some dark places on the internet where they complain about everything.  My wife tells me I shouldn't hang out there.  But I'm to stubborn to admit she is right.

 

I hear you.

 

My wife tells me I look like a grumpy potato when I get too intense reading comments. 

 

Good reminder that it is all just games at the end of the day.

 

  

3 hours ago, Skywrath said:

On a completely unrelated side-note - you remind me of someone, someone who I interacted with in earlier times. Your sentence structure and mannerisms are similar, and he also was fairly absolute with his statements.

 

Yeah, I hear blow flies buzzing.

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by phandaal

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Something tells me this thread is ripe for closing... 

Or does anyone wish to engage it in a constructive manner? 

 

 

[WGXH]

12 hours ago, ValourousHeart said:

 

If we are going to ignore everything else and just focus on the save number, then yes I can see your point.  However most models holding Storm Shields are T4, not T6.  They also don't have 9 Wounds.  A lot more goes into a units ability to stay on the table top... T, W, Save, Inv Save and other factors like Number of Models in the unit, or LOS, or counting as in dense cover if over X inches away.  The list goes on and on.

 

As for The Shield Eternal I think we have to balance the difference between in universe one of a kind items and the player base who tend to be worse than junior high girls when it comes to being just a carbon copy of the person next to you.  I think most relics and chapter command are over used, which is why I like crusade because it rank locks those things.

 

It doesn't make sense that Abaddon would personally lead a half dozen of his rank and file warriors to check a random space hulk for some emails.  Certainly he has better things to do like launching his next failed attempt to take over the Imperium.

 

And it isn't the weapon, it is the man wielding it that matters.

 

I'm certain that if we ever got to see the Emperor's profile and special rules, we would discover that he can only be hit on 6+ and you have to reroll successes, only wounded on 6+ and you have to reroll successes.  Then his disappointing shield gives him a 4++ but because he is omniscient he gets to reroll that 4++, and he'll have some other rule that says weapons can only do one damage to him, and then he gets to respawn if you ever kill him, and instead of having to wait for the next turn, he gets placed on the board at the start of the next phase.  Should I go on?

 

 

 

I don't think I can agree with all of your takes here. Fundamentally, yes, there is a lot that can be considered for a unit. But you did ask about the Shield in isolation.

 

Until recently the toughness of models holding Storm Shields for Dark Angels was equivalent to whatever was being shot at them. and I don't think it's unfair to examine a weapon or wargears stats in isolation when assessing them, especially if there is background drawing specific attention towards it.

 

and to say the man wielding it matters makes it seem like you are underselling The Lion- is this a case of he can't use a shield as well as Kaldor Draigo? He is meant to be inferior than Abaddon in every conceivable metric?

 

In the end, however, I think fundamentally people are let down for The Emperor's Shield because by all of the standards of his peers, The Lion has the least direct defence- lower toughness and wounds than his daemonic bretheren, no -1 damage, no shrug, or anything similar. and his brother has a superior invulnerable save and the ability to come back from the dead. 

 

I say this without prejudice as I feel as far as game balancing goes, he is generally fine, and his Warlord trait is a real game changer if used well. but I am just trying to express why people might feel disappointment with reference to his defences. I hope that does help to clarify somewhat.

[Skywrath]

So I had a game with the Lion today.. and no I'm not complaining but I'd give you some impressions on what I thought playing him.

 

Let me put this in caps: YES, I KNOW 10TH ED IS AROUND THE CORNER, BUT I THOUGHT I'D SHARE MY THOUGHTS ON WHAT HE'S LIKE IN THE 3 REMAINING MONTHS OF 9TH ANYWAY. With that disclaimer out of the way..

 

Here was my list, the opponent was Death Guard, a good friend of mine. He was running Morty, 3 blight haulers, 10m blightlord blob, poxwalkers, 2 bloat drones, plaguecaster, tallyman, PBC. So more or less stock standard DG competitive lists.

 

 

 

 

++ Arks of Omen Detachment (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Dark Angels) [115 PL, 1CP, 2,000pts] ++

+ Configuration +

**Chapter Selector**: Dark Angels

Arks of Omen Compulsory Type: Elites

Battle Size [6CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) 

Detachment Command Cost

Game Type: 5. Chapter Approved: Arks of Omen

+ HQ +

Interrogator-Chaplain [7 PL, 130pts]: 2. Catechism of Fire, 6. Canticle of Hate (Aura), Chapter Command:  Master of Sanctity, Jump Pack, Litany of Hate (Aura), Thunder hammer

Librarian in Terminator Armour [7 PL, -1CP, 115pts]: 1) Mind Worm, 2) Might of Heroes, 3) Null Zone (Aura), 6) Psychic Fortress (Aura), Chapter Command:  Chief Librarian, Combi-melta, Force axe, Stratagem: Relic of the Chapter, Tome of Malcador

+ Troops +

Infiltrator Squad [6 PL, 100pts]: Helix gauntlet
. 4x Infiltrator: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Marksman bolt carbine
. Infiltrator Sergeant

+ Elites +

Aggressor Squad [12 PL, 150pts]: 4x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant
. Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

Bladeguard Ancient [6 PL, -1CP, 90pts]: Chapter Command: Chapter Ancient, Steadfast Example, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter

Bladeguard Veteran Squad [10 PL, 140pts]
. 3x Bladeguard Veteran: 3x Frag & Krak grenades, 3x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 3x Master-crafted power sword, 3x Storm Shield
. Bladeguard Veteran Sergeant: Plasma pistol

Bladeguard Veteran Squad [10 PL, 140pts]
. 3x Bladeguard Veteran: 3x Frag & Krak grenades, 3x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 3x Master-crafted power sword, 3x Storm Shield
. Bladeguard Veteran Sergeant: Plasma pistol

Deathwing Knights [11 PL, -1CP, 215pts]: Watcher in the Dark
. 4x Deathwing Knight: 4x Mace of Absolution, 4x Storm shield
. Knight Master: Master-Crafted Weapon, Stratagem: Marked for Command

Ravenwing Apothecary [6 PL, -1CP, 120pts]: Chapter Command:  Chief Apothecary, Selfless Healer, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter
. Black Knight Bike: Plasma Talon

+ Fast Attack +

Bike Squad [5 PL, 90pts]
. Biker Sergeant: Combi-melta
. Space Marine Biker w/Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Space Marine Biker w/Special Weapon: Meltagun

Bike Squad [5 PL, 90pts]
. Biker Sergeant: Combi-melta
. Space Marine Biker w/Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Space Marine Biker w/Special Weapon: Meltagun

Inceptor Squad [14 PL, 300pts]: 4x Inceptor, Inceptor Sergeant, Plasma Exterminator x2

+ Lord of War +

Lion El'Jonson [16 PL, -1CP, 320pts]: No Hiding from the Watchers, Stratagem: Warlord Trait

++ Total: [115 PL, 1CP, 2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)
 

 

 

Both lists were semi-competitive in nature, so we were using the AOO Death and Zeal mission selection. My impressions of the Lion..

 

1. Squishy! The fight first really saves his bacon otherwise he would have been minced seven ways till Sunday by either Mortarion or the Blightlord blob. As I also found out today Line Unbreakable only works on INFANTRY, so that's another defensive we can't overlap with him. If they remove his fight first next edition, then he will be a very poor choice competitively, without extra durability buffs.

 

2. Emperor's Shield - not as a meme-tier weapon as I thought it was. I averaged something about 3-6MW per game (well the 3 turns because I practically tabled him then), and it works surprisingly well with units that have a high volume of attacks. 4++ invuln is laughable though, it should come up with either a damage cap, a SS save (of +1 to armour save) or -1 damage, or transhuman. Just ANYTHING, ANYTHING AT ALL. 

 

3. No hiding from the Watchers - Surprisingly powerful WL Trait. That made my Aggressors/Bladeguard a very scary threat to get into combat with. I retract my previous statement of it being a mediocre WL trait. The wonderful thing about that is, you can also use CHARACTERS because it only specifies one DA unit which isn't CORE or CHARACTER locked. Need to think about this more to make the most out of it, there seems to be a pretty high skill ceiling with this ability.

 

4. Melee - absolutely slaps. Didn't get a chance to use the sweep profile (as it's DG with a -1D army wide rule), but the melee was very good. Pistol was good too, being master-crafted (although again against DG) isn't the best opportunity for it to shine.

 

5. Auras - I honestly didn't feel I needed the CM re-roll hits aura because I had a chaplain with the Litany of Hate (in melee), just re-roll hits and 1's for both CORE and CHARACTERS spoilt me. If that stays in 10th (and it very likely will), then this will be INSANELY powerful, but we already know that. The point is, there is practically little reason to take Azrael with the Lion, aside from his 4++ invuln aura, which will probably be canned to the one unit next edition. 

 

Aside from the durability concerns with the Lion, currently with some help from a 10m Deathwing brick or 1 x 5 aggressors, that's all the defense he needs for this edition.. I still would want him to have something extra defensively though. I didn't get a chance to get Might of Heroes off as I misplayed and left my librarian out in the open, but the difference between T6 and T7 isn't substantial enough. 

 

Final score was 93-78 in my favour, at the bottom of Turn 4. 

Edited April 16, 2023 by Skywrath

[ValourousHeart]

On 4/16/2023 at 3:53 AM, WGXH said:

 

I don't think I can agree with all of your takes here. Fundamentally, yes, there is a lot that can be considered for a unit. But you did ask about the Shield in isolation.

 

Until recently the toughness of models holding Storm Shields for Dark Angels was equivalent to whatever was being shot at them. and I don't think it's unfair to examine a weapon or wargears stats in isolation when assessing them, especially if there is background drawing specific attention towards it.

 

and to say the man wielding it matters makes it seem like you are underselling The Lion- is this a case of he can't use a shield as well as Kaldor Draigo? He is meant to be inferior than Abaddon in every conceivable metric?

 

In the end, however, I think fundamentally people are let down for The Emperor's Shield because by all of the standards of his peers, The Lion has the least direct defense- lower toughness and wounds than his daemonic brethren, no -1 damage, no shrug, or anything similar. and his brother has a superior invulnerable save and the ability to come back from the dead. 

 

I say this without prejudice as I feel as far as game balancing goes, he is generally fine, and his Warlord trait is a real game changer if used well. but I am just trying to express why people might feel disappointment with reference to his defenses. I hope that does help to clarify somewhat.

 

I'm really not underselling the Lion.  I'm simply used to facing more units from each codex than it would appear you are used to facing.  Against most things in the game, his survivability is superb.

 

The problem is that most units are not seen at tournaments.  I stopped going to tournaments because I found it incredibly boring facing the exact same list every round.  The only real difference was if my opponent knew his own rules, or if I had to coach him because he had just bought the army.  The predictability became monotonous.   And because I have an obsession with pattern recognition, it got to the point where I was having trouble remembering that this was a different match.

 

Your cynicism toward the "mass produced Shield Eternal" might indicate that you are getting close to the point I was when I decided I wanted to enjoy 40k by being able to experience unique match ups again.

 

I wish you the best of luck finding a group to play with where you don't feel disappointment pushing cool looking models around the table.

[ValourousHeart]

On 4/16/2023 at 4:01 PM, Skywrath said:

So I had a game with the Lion today.. and no I'm not complaining but I'd give you some impressions on what I thought playing him.

 

Let me put this in caps: YES, I KNOW 10TH ED IS AROUND THE CORNER, BUT I THOUGHT I'D SHARE MY THOUGHTS ON WHAT HE'S LIKE IN THE 3 REMAINING MONTHS OF 9TH ANYWAY. With that disclaimer out of the way..

 

Here was my list, the opponent was Death Guard, a good friend of mine. He was running Morty, 3 blight haulers, 10m blightlord blob, poxwalkers, 2 bloat drones, plaguecaster, tallyman, PBC. So more or less stock standard DG competitive lists.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

++ Arks of Omen Detachment (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Dark Angels) [115 PL, 1CP, 2,000pts] ++

+ Configuration +

**Chapter Selector**: Dark Angels

Arks of Omen Compulsory Type: Elites

Battle Size [6CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) 

Detachment Command Cost

Game Type: 5. Chapter Approved: Arks of Omen

+ HQ +

Interrogator-Chaplain [7 PL, 130pts]: 2. Catechism of Fire, 6. Canticle of Hate (Aura), Chapter Command:  Master of Sanctity, Jump Pack, Litany of Hate (Aura), Thunder hammer

Librarian in Terminator Armour [7 PL, -1CP, 115pts]: 1) Mind Worm, 2) Might of Heroes, 3) Null Zone (Aura), 6) Psychic Fortress (Aura), Chapter Command:  Chief Librarian, Combi-melta, Force axe, Stratagem: Relic of the Chapter, Tome of Malcador

+ Troops +

Infiltrator Squad [6 PL, 100pts]: Helix gauntlet
. 4x Infiltrator: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Marksman bolt carbine
. Infiltrator Sergeant

+ Elites +

Aggressor Squad [12 PL, 150pts]: 4x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant
. Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

Bladeguard Ancient [6 PL, -1CP, 90pts]: Chapter Command: Chapter Ancient, Steadfast Example, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter

Bladeguard Veteran Squad [10 PL, 140pts]
. 3x Bladeguard Veteran: 3x Frag & Krak grenades, 3x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 3x Master-crafted power sword, 3x Storm Shield
. Bladeguard Veteran Sergeant: Plasma pistol

Bladeguard Veteran Squad [10 PL, 140pts]
. 3x Bladeguard Veteran: 3x Frag & Krak grenades, 3x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 3x Master-crafted power sword, 3x Storm Shield
. Bladeguard Veteran Sergeant: Plasma pistol

Deathwing Knights [11 PL, -1CP, 215pts]: Watcher in the Dark
. 4x Deathwing Knight: 4x Mace of Absolution, 4x Storm shield
. Knight Master: Master-Crafted Weapon, Stratagem: Marked for Command

Ravenwing Apothecary [6 PL, -1CP, 120pts]: Chapter Command:  Chief Apothecary, Selfless Healer, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter
. Black Knight Bike: Plasma Talon

+ Fast Attack +

Bike Squad [5 PL, 90pts]
. Biker Sergeant: Combi-melta
. Space Marine Biker w/Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Space Marine Biker w/Special Weapon: Meltagun

Bike Squad [5 PL, 90pts]
. Biker Sergeant: Combi-melta
. Space Marine Biker w/Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Space Marine Biker w/Special Weapon: Meltagun

Inceptor Squad [14 PL, 300pts]: 4x Inceptor, Inceptor Sergeant, Plasma Exterminator x2

+ Lord of War +

Lion El'Jonson [16 PL, -1CP, 320pts]: No Hiding from the Watchers, Stratagem: Warlord Trait

++ Total: [115 PL, 1CP, 2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)
 

 

 

Both lists were semi-competitive in nature, so we were using the AOO Death and Zeal mission selection. My impressions of the Lion..

 

1. Squishy! The fight first really saves his bacon otherwise he would have been minced seven ways till Sunday by either Mortarion or the Blightlord blob. As I also found out today Line Unbreakable only works on INFANTRY, so that's another defensive we can't overlap with him. If they remove his fight first next edition, then he will be a very poor choice competitively, without extra durability buffs.

 

2. Emperor's Shield - not as a meme-tier weapon as I thought it was. I averaged something about 3-6MW per game (well the 3 turns because I practically tabled him then), and it works surprisingly well with units that have a high volume of attacks. 4++ invuln is laughable though, it should come up with either a damage cap, a SS save (of +1 to armour save) or -1 damage, or transhuman. Just ANYTHING, ANYTHING AT ALL. 

 

3. No hiding from the Watchers - Surprisingly powerful WL Trait. That made my Aggressors/Bladeguard a very scary threat to get into combat with. I retract my previous statement of it being a mediocre WL trait. The wonderful thing about that is, you can also use CHARACTERS because it only specifies one DA unit which isn't CORE or CHARACTER locked. Need to think about this more to make the most out of it, there seems to be a pretty high skill ceiling with this ability.

 

4. Melee - absolutely slaps. Didn't get a chance to use the sweep profile (as it's DG with a -1D army wide rule), but the melee was very good. Pistol was good too, being master-crafted (although again against DG) isn't the best opportunity for it to shine.

 

5. Auras - I honestly didn't feel I needed the CM re-roll hits aura because I had a chaplain with the Litany of Hate (in melee), just re-roll hits and 1's for both CORE and CHARACTERS spoilt me. If that stays in 10th (and it very likely will), then this will be INSANELY powerful, but we already know that. The point is, there is practically little reason to take Azrael with the Lion, aside from his 4++ invuln aura, which will probably be canned to the one unit next edition. 

 

Aside from the durability concerns with the Lion, currently with some help from a 10m Deathwing brick or 1 x 5 aggressors, that's all the defense he needs for this edition.. I still would want him to have something extra defensively though. I didn't get a chance to get Might of Heroes off as I misplayed and left my librarian out in the open, but the difference between T6 and T7 isn't substantial enough. 

 

Final score was 93-78 in my favour, at the bottom of Turn 4. 

 

Thanks for posting the battle report.  Which turn did the Lion die in?  Was your opponent able to get around LOS to target him at range?

 

I wasn't able to get the Lion ordered this past weekend, so I'm planning to proxi Robo-G for a match this week.  I think his forest walk ability will really tie in well with this list.

 

Lion - WLT

Bike Chaplain - Imperium's Sword, Benediction of Fury

Talonmaster - Eye of the Unseen

Outrider

Outrider

Invader x3 (2 MM)

Tornado x3 (3 AC, 1 MM)

Tornado x3 (3 AC, 1 MM)

RWBK x10

RW Apoth

Dark Talon

[Skywrath]

51 minutes ago, ValourousHeart said:

 

Thanks for posting the battle report.  Which turn did the Lion die in?  Was your opponent able to get around LOS to target him at range?

 

I wasn't able to get the Lion ordered this past weekend, so I'm planning to proxi Robo-G for a match this week.  I think his forest walk ability will really tie in well with this list.

 

Lion - WLT

Bike Chaplain - Imperium's Sword, Benediction of Fury

Talonmaster - Eye of the Unseen

Outrider

Outrider

Invader x3 (2 MM)

Tornado x3 (3 AC, 1 MM)

Tornado x3 (3 AC, 1 MM)

RWBK x10

RW Apoth

Dark Talon

 

Turn 4, but he should have been dead earlier..

 

He survived the PBC's to the face (entropy cannons/mortar), the 10m Blightlord blob with exploding 6's in melee, but due to some pretty tricky positioning on my end, he could only get 3 models into engagement range, and I spiked on my saves. On top of this the Lion seemed intent on rolling 6's on his saves so I managed to kill 2 blightlord terminators off. In that battle I had a lot of DS elements (Knights, 1 x 4 Lionguard, Lion, Plasceptors in reserve) and positioned them in such a way, where each turn they pretty much surrounded the Lion at all times and you couldn't put units inside the bubble..

 

When he did "die" we concluded he didn't die, but he forest walked to his next engagement.. details are important ;) 

 

The opponent brute forced the Lionguard and the Aggressor blob, which is where I rolled below average, so it averages out with my above average Lion saves. He needed that character protection, he wasn't like Abaddon with his damage caps and murderous melee that could take a hit. Bit of a side-note here, I think Lionguard are now much more tempting to take over a 4+ invuln Terminators because they can be transhumaned. Still their 3+ save over a 2+ save.. not a fan.

 

Regarding your list - admittedly the predominant majority of my DA lists are some sort of Deathwing+Greenwing. I don't have a lot of RW models, aside from 5 Black Knights and the 6 melta bikes (not attack bikes), and a few RW characters. In theory your above list should play out well if you plan to start the Lion in DS. Otherwise the bikes move far too quickly and that leaves the Lion exposed, which runs into the above problems. Then depending on the type of game you play, there are some peculiar/sub-optimal choices in the above list you are planning to bring. But as I don't know the context, I'm just going to leave that there. 

[ValourousHeart]

On 4/18/2023 at 1:39 AM, Skywrath said:

When he did "die" we concluded he didn't die, but he forest walked to his next engagement.. details are important ;) 

 

I love the narrative!

 

On 4/18/2023 at 1:39 AM, Skywrath said:

there are some peculiar/sub-optimal choices in the above list you are planning to bring. But as I don't know the context, I'm just going to leave that there. 

 

I'm curious what you think is peculiar and sub-optimal?  I design my lists with a particular game theory, so I'm interested in how players interpret my lists.

[bigtrouble]

6 hours ago, ValourousHeart said:

I'm curious what you think is peculiar and sub-optimal?  I design my lists with a particular game theory, so I'm interested in how players interpret my lists.

 

I can't speak for Skywrath, but I'm very curious about your theory.

 

I'm particularly wondering what the role of the Talonmaster is with the Eye of the Unseen, and what litany you put on the chaplain.

[Skywrath]

On 4/18/2023 at 3:34 PM, ValourousHeart said:

 

Thanks for posting the battle report.  Which turn did the Lion die in?  Was your opponent able to get around LOS to target him at range?

 

I wasn't able to get the Lion ordered this past weekend, so I'm planning to proxi Robo-G for a match this week.  I think his forest walk ability will really tie in well with this list.

 

Lion - WLT

Bike Chaplain - Imperium's Sword, Benediction of Fury

Talonmaster - Eye of the Unseen

Outrider

Outrider

Invader x3 (2 MM)

Tornado x3 (3 AC, 1 MM)

Tornado x3 (3 AC, 1 MM)

RWBK x10

RW Apoth

Dark Talon

 

It depends on what kind of a setting your game will be.. competitive? Casual? Something in between? Then the other scenario is whether you have the models. 

 

Personally, imho, I wouldn't run outriders in any scenario, as while they are quite choppy with 7 attacks apiece, in the end it's only D1. If you want melee, consider a DS unit of either terminators or something that can support the Lion. Maybe a RW Champion, or Sammael, if you can protect 5 characters. What was your thought process of including the outriders? Were you planning to launch them at a point and park them? (Not having a go, just curious). 

 

Then the Invaders don't have CORE if memory serves, and I'd replace them with an 3m Attack Bike MM squad which does have CORE, does the same thing, are cheaper and you can revive them with the Ravenwing Apothecary. If you plan to run an invader ATV squad, I'd take 3 of them separately, that way your eggs aren't in the one basket and they could net you Engage on all Front points, while controlling a far away objective. Even then I'd probably go with 2 max. 

 

In a similar vein - I'd replace one Tornado Squad with a Typhoon Squad which does what the Tornado do but better, as they have MM's and krak/frag missile options which outperform the assault cannon in most scenarios. If they cost more than the Tornado's then you have the extra points from your switch from Invaders/Attack Bikes. Another thing you could do, is replace both of the tornados with regular bike squads, and attach a MM bike to either of them. That way they would have Obsec, CORE and extra durability as you could allocate W to the 4W attack bike, keeping your other three bikes safe. If I was playing in your scenario, I'd have both elements, but the choice is yours. The typhoon's don't have CORE but they have a decent amount of MM equivalent shots and flexibility that you could make a case for taking.  

 

Last item. If you are running your bike chaplain as a smash chaplain, kit him out with Mantra of Strength litany. The second litany would either be Canticle (for potentially DS the Lion + other DS elements), Recitation of Focus (+1 to hit, which could go on the attack bikes if you choose to run them). Catechism of Fire with the amount of non-core units you currently have in your list wouldn't' be much use I'm afraid. 

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Skywrath

[ValourousHeart]

Sorry this post got long.  Hopefully spoiler tags makes it easier to read.

 

SMALL COMMENT ON YOUR LION LIST FROM A COUPLE POSTS BACK

Spoiler

I believe you made a small error picking your powers on your Terminator Librarian with the Tome of Malcador.

 

On 4/16/2023 at 4:01 PM, Skywrath said:

Librarian in Terminator Armour [7 PL, -1CP, 115pts]: 1) Mind Worm, 2) Might of Heroes, 3) Null Zone (Aura), 6) Psychic Fortress (Aura), Chapter Command:  Chief Librarian, Combi-melta, Force axe, Stratagem: Relic of the Chapter, Tome of Malcador

 

Here is the relevant part of the Core Rule Book FAQ that includes an example of a Dark Angels Librarian with the Tome of Malcador.

I don't know about other codexes but SM and DA Librarians can only know powers from a single discipline.

 

 

 

THE TYPE OF GAMES AT MY LGS

Spoiler

The type of game is challenging without going to the level of tournament memes.

 

That is to say that our Nid player only takes a single unit of Zoanthropes, because he feels that the metric ton of MW they throw out is unfun when he takes more than a single unit.  Gee wiz he would be guaranteed to kill a Knight every turn.  To the tournament players that run that, I'm sure that only gets more nail biting every time.

 

So it isn't that we can't field these things, it is just that we don't feel it is necessary.   Also most of my opponents have learned that taking small units against me just plays into my army's strength, which is really good at removing squads.  Most of my games end with my opponent being tabled, it only happens faster when they try MSU.

 

 

WHAT UNITS I PICK AND WHY

Spoiler

I do normally run a unit of Typhoons in my Ravenwing.  But the Typhoons and the RWBK are 300 point units, and I find it counter productive to run multiple units that large per 1000 points.  This list has the Lion which I feel counts toward that limit of one 300 point unit per 1000 points.  Assuming you are correct about the Lion needing unit protection, then the RWBK are imperative to keeping him around, more so that the Typhoons.

 

I know that on paper it would look like a Typhoon should do more damage than a Tornado.  And granted the Typhoons are great at knocking off large chunks of wounds, but what they are not great at is removing units from the table.  Those 3 Typhoons could deal up to 36 damage if I roll well, plus another 18 damage from the Heavy Bolters.  But those Typhoons are subject to being ignored by a medic, or reduced by Deathguard, or just saved with a lucky 6, plus all of the other ways to mitigate high wound sources.  On the other hand those 8 Assault Cannons are potentially 48 damage with no meaningful way to ignore the damage, with an extra 36 damage from Heavy Bolters and 32 damage from MM.  As a result, my Tornados deal considerably more damage than my Typhoons.

 

Most often I run as few characters as possible.  The normal game size I play is 1000 points and the list is one of these 2 most often.  The Dark Shroud and Nephilim are new additions with the last points drop.  Prior to that it was those same lists without those 2 units.  My 2000 point list used to just be these two 1000 point lists combined, but since the points drop I have to do something different because of the limit on FA slots, hence the RW Apothecary.  To take the Apothecary in the 1000 point list would be would be to give up 3-4 RWBK.  It might sound odd, but you gain so much more by having those 4 extra RWBK from the start of the game instead of ignoring the first 4 dead RWBK.  And who is to say that a unit of 6 RWBK is going to last the 4 rounds required for the RW Apothecary to revive 4 RWBK.

1. Talonmaster, 3 Tornados, 3 Tornados, 3 Typhoons, Dark Shroud
2. Bike Chaplain, 3 Outriders, 3 Outriders, 3 Invaders, 10 RWBK, Nephilim

Most of my thought process is about survivability than it is about damage output.  Sure an Attack Bike has the same MM for 50 points that the Invader has for 70 points.  But the Invader has twice the number of wounds an Attack Bike has, and has access to Transhuman.  So 3 Attack Bikes is 150 points and 3 Invaders is 210 points... and the amount of wounds that would remove all 3 Attack Bikes would only kill 1 Invader from a unit of 3.  And while you can't Combat Revival the Invader, you can still Combat Restoratives and Narthecium the Invaders in addition to using Transhuman.

 

WHY MY CHARACTERS ARE SET UP THE WAY THEY ARE

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I'm always willing to try a different setup for my characters.  But I feel that for the most part Characters are not worth their points compared to squads.  Refer back to my comments above about the Apothecary not equaling the 3-4 RWBK that he costs.

 

The Talonmaster in my speeder list is almost an indistinguishable threat from the squads he is with.  Meaning that he is effectively the same as 2 Tornadoes, or maybe 1 Typhoon.  But given that he is a character surrounded by vehicles, means that you can't target him at range until you kill off all of my speeders, or somehow get me to separate him from the pack.  The only exception to this is if you get into assault with him.  Given the foot print of the the Speeder Squadrons near him it is difficult for infantry squads to charge the Talonmaster without also charging a Squadron.  That opens you up to a rather robust Overwatch with 18 AC, 6 HB and 2 MM shots.  It is also unlikely that any infantry units are full strength since I generally sweep and clear the field.

 

That means your alternative is to try to charge him with a character.  Therefore Eye of the Unseen, charging character is forced to wait until after my Talonmaster attacks before he can swing... but then Swift Strike kicks in and I exit engagement range before said character gets to assault.  Would you like to spend 1CP for a 1d6 chance to cause a MW?  Since that fall back happened in your turn, I'm free to move and shoot or even charge in my turn.  I also have hit and run to get a second unit out of assault if needed.  This all works together to make you prefer to target all the rest of my speeders with range.

 

On to the Chaplain.  As a character who buffs units, IMO he needs to buff 2+ units to be worth it, otherwise there is more value in the units you can take for his points.  That means there are only 3 Litanies that work like Auras.

 

1. Litany of Faith is only good against MW
   1. if my opponent is throwing MW at me it means I forgot my shooting phase.
   2. The whole point of my list is knowing a good target priority. 
2. Canticle of Hate
   1. Almost redundant as I play the distance game until I can start the turn 18-20 inches away from you at which I only need a 4-6 inch charge.
   2. The extra consolidation helps my Outriders to close the distance if the Chaplain kills to many.
3. Litany of Hate
   1. The free litany and bonus it is an Aura
   2. Easy choice for Commanding Oratory if I am in an easy charge distance and I failed to cast a Litany during my command phase.

 

 

MY GAME THEORY FOR RAVENWING

Spoiler

I've been running the same list philosophy since 4th edition, and surprisingly it has stood up over time without facing any real nerfs.  Yes there have been huge changes to the core and faction rules over those 6 editions, and there will be more changes in 10th.  But the army doesn't play with the game rules in mind.  It plays to recreate a cinematic scene.

 

It is not Top Gun, it is Running Man.  This isn't a dog fight, it is gun ships pacifying a food riot.  If you are playing to a cinematic the rule system has no bearing.  I can drop this list  concept into any game system and it plays the same way.

 

Additionally it is about forcing your opponent to make a choice between 2 bad options.  For example giving up your movement phase to attack the harassment unit next to you, or ignore that unit and race across the board to where your unit is needed most.  You'd be surprised at how many people give up their movement phase to attack the harassment unit.

 

And making his responses to you be inefficient.  For example your unit is 5 DWK, the harassment unit is an Attack Bike 2 inches behind you, and where your DWK are needed most is 2 turns away (19 inches = 5 + adv 3 + 5 + charge 6).

 

While also taking away his ability to adapt.  For example eliminating your outlier unit, the one unit in your list that does something well that the rest of your list doesn't do very well.  Or with the above example either continuing to block your progression across the board making the charge roll harder, or feeding you a second Attack Bike to guarantee that you can't make it across the board in time.

 

Lastly is the real psychology element of the list.  When you look at both of those 1000 point lists, and the 2000 point list, you immediately start making judgments about what units pose threats to your army.  The problem with that approach is that by you identifying what unit you think it the biggest threat from my army, you tell me how to disassemble your battle plan.

 

Once I start taking tools out of your bag, most armies lose options for how they can respond effectively.  Taking away models from my army doesn't have the same effect.

 

PRACTICAL EXAMPLE

Spoiler

And just as a mental exercise take my 1000 point speeder force vs your 2000 point Lion list.  Yes I know, giving you a 1000 point advantage is unfair, and you are certainly going to win.  But how easily?

 

You taking out my Typhoons has minimal effect on my army's performance against your list because of your Apothecary and Inv saves.  But me taking out your Inceptors takes away 90% of your over 24 inch threat range weapons and 90% of your weapons that wound me on a 3+ at range.  And given that I have a 40 inch threat range minimum to your 28 inch threat range maximum, there is a very high probability that I'll take out your 15 T5 3+ wounds before you take out my 18 T6 3+ 5++ wounds.  Chances are I'd be able to dent your bikes too, possibly taking out 1 full squad before they deal too much damage, or the Apothecary could revive anyone that could effectively attack me at range. 

 

Now I'm used to playing that speeder list on a 1000 point board, but playing on the 2000 point board will give me miles of room to run so catching me won't be as easy as it would have been on a 1000 point board.  Chances are fairly high that I will have have eliminated more than half of your points before you eliminate all of mine.  I'm not trying to strawman your list, I'm assuming you will play an excellent match.  I just also think that your outlier units are more fragile than you may realize, and how hampering it would be if those units were picked off efficiently in the early game, which is what my list is effective at doing.

 

[phandaal]

With Outriders, I have never once felt like they were a threat when facing them across the table. Their profile is just not good. Really surprised they never got significant changes in 9th edition, but maybe we will see them become more relevant in 10th.

 

Whenever I want that speedy bike melee, I am more likely to use a cheap Ravenwing Champion. Great for fouling up your opponent's plans.

[Skywrath]

1 hour ago, ValourousHeart said:

Sorry this post got long.  Hopefully spoiler tags makes it easier to read.

 

SMALL COMMENT ON YOUR LION LIST FROM A COUPLE POSTS BACK

  Reveal hidden contents

I believe you made a small error picking your powers on your Terminator Librarian with the Tome of Malcador.

 

 

Here is the relevant part of the Core Rule Book FAQ that includes an example of a Dark Angels Librarian with the Tome of Malcador.

I don't know about other codexes but SM and DA Librarians can only know powers from a single discipline.

 

 

Except the Librarian in TDA has access to both sets of trees, meaning the tome of Malcador grants him one additional ability from a tree he has access to. This was brought up in tournaments over here earlier and the general consensus that even though his main three abilities are from the generic tree (with the build), that tome gives him access to the one from either that tree or the other.

 

I'll have the rest of the response later tomorrow, a few things to take in from your perspective.. although it seems we might be derailing this thread. 

Edited April 21, 2023 by Skywrath

[ValourousHeart]

Realized I didn't answer your outrider question.

 

As I mentioned I mostly play 1000 point games so the Outriders are in this list.

Bike Chaplain, 3 Outriders, 3 Outriders, 3 Invaders, 10 RWBK, Nephilim

 

The primary motivation was this is what I'm painting at the moment, and I like to play what I'm painting, along with a Dark Shroud, RW Apoth, RW Banner, and a Land Speeder Storm.  It was also a list that could mesh well with my 1000 point speeder list and all fit into a 2000 point Outrider detachment.

 

I have a bunch of older RW Bikes and Attack Bikes that need to be repaired and cleaned up before I can get to painting them.  I could use them but I'd rather get them fixed up and ready to start painting.

 

The same cinematic idea works, but this time it was Fury Road.  We have some precious cargo that needs protecting.  All these bolter rounds, melta death and plasma goodness.  So the Invaders and RWBK are set up as the main damage dealers,  Leaving the outriders to run interference, and pick off stragglers.

 

Sure they only have D1 attacks, but between their bolters and chainswords they are good enough to knock out damaged units.  And tag ranged units that aren't great in assault to prevent them from shooting next turn if I can't wipe them out this turn.

[ValourousHeart]

You are right about us derailing this thread.

As for the other thing, It is the end of the edition, it is not worth worrying about.

[Marshal Mittens]

My LGS has 3 in stock; maybe check your FLGS if, like me, you didn't get one during the pre-order period that was about a nano second before they sold out. 

[BitsHammer]

6 hours ago, Marshal Mittens said:

My LGS has 3 in stock; maybe check your FLGS if, like me, you didn't get one during the pre-order period that was about a nano second before they sold out. 

Three is pretty impressive. Word has been most stores could only get one 

[Gederas]

55 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

Three is pretty impressive. Word has been most stores could only get one 

Not exactly. My FLGS also got three. And this isn't exactly a big one in the States either

 

It's just all three of them were not available for anyone else to purchase because myself, the brother of my FLGS' Master of Ceremonies (IE: Our tournament guy) and our surprise new DA player all pre-ordered and paid for them

 

I myself have had Lion in my possession already. Kit goes together well, just one issue is the cape doesn't like to stay together... Greenstuff was necessary :/

Edited April 22, 2023 by Gederas

[ValourousHeart]

My LGS is a GW and has 2.  Store doesn't open for another 2.5 hours, but I should probably park my butt on the curb.

[Skywrath]

Still nothing on the Australia front.. *cries silently*

[Sea Creature]

With landspeeders going away to Legends land I’m hoping Sammael will get to pilot one of the Primaris speeders… not sure which one is best. Basically same for the Talonmaster as well.