The Lion - Son of the Forest by Mike Brooks

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

23 minutes ago, Scribe said:

I'm shocked.

Spoiler

I don't understand GW's obsession with duels. If they want Angron dead, why not show us some group effort? Lets see Lion cooperating with a "bodyguard", how he has to sacrifice some meat-shields to win, how the meat-shields hamper Angron's ability to combat Lion. After  AoO:Angron it's hard to fathom how anyone can solo him, but I guess the time of hyping Angron up has ended.

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

That once again a non-daemon guy just handedly beats a daemon guy? Same here.

 

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At least with Sanguinius it was confirmed the fight basically left him wounded in a way that he likely wouldn’t recover from, and it was only after he went into a pure rage so beautiful even Angron was jealous.

Spoiler

Still, even though I'm a BA guy, it was a bit of a stretch, even taking into consideration that Sang was always "top 3" in terms of power level and Angron was still a "young" deamon prince. But lets not derail the thread further

.

[Arkangilos]

6 minutes ago, Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla said:

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I don't understand GW's obsession with duels. If they want Angron dead, why not show us some group effort? Lets see Lion cooperating with a "bodyguard", how he has to sacrifice some meat-shields to win, how the meat-shields hamper Angron's ability to combat Lion. After  AoO:Angron it's hard to fathom how anyone can solo him, but I guess the time of hyping Angron up has ended.

 

 

 

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Still, even though I'm a BA guy, it was a bit of a stretch, even taking into consideration that Sang was always "top 3" in terms of power level and Angron was still a "young" deamon prince. But lets not derail the thread further

.

Agreed across the board. 
 

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

As for the book in thread's title:
 

Spoiler

Reconciliation with the Fallen was super smooth in my opinion and  Brooks did not play much with either centuries of resentment for those who were scattered earlier or freshness of the wounds for those who just emerged from the warp (or whatever you call it). It was like they were just waiting to be back with him.

 

I am irritated a bit by pointlessness of the arthurian references. They felt more like winks at highschoolers, who just got through Chretien and Green Knight in English class than genuine effort at integrating them into the story. Especially the fisher king felt completely wasted. Since Lion gets the shield with space magic anyway, it should have been connected with the king. The Lion should have been given the shield by the king after asking the right question (a wounded monarch on a throne, wink wink, you know, wink wink). The candelabr-spear-chalice doesn't seem to have any symbolism in the setting and it would be way funnier if they were switched for spear-sword-shield just to tease the furries (wink wink cause you know wink wink Emp's weapons wink wink).

 

[Kelborn]

And yet again,

 

I like to emphasize that selling your soul to the dark gods is not a preferable state.

They willingly enslave themselves by doing a fools bargain. They loose the chance to seize their full potential by receiving highly questionable "gifts". 

Certain aspects of them become so dominant that they become their very essence: Angron gets angrier until he's basically a whirling blade. Magnus lost himself to deceit and his powers and Mortarion outdid himself by becoming even more spitefull. 

Meanwhile, the loyal Primarchs still represent the epitome of the Emperors work (aside from the Custodes, obviously) but nonetheless, they are complete. Something their brothers can't say about themselves. 

Long speech short: in joining the dark gods, they weakened themselves. That has always been a thing and one of the reasons why the Imperium was able to stand up against the lackies of Chaos.

Aside the fact that the Lion has always been one of the very best fighters in the Emperor's ranks while Angron is surely a force to be reckoned with but can be outsmarted. Perturabo is probably the best example of defeating your enemy with your head instead of big muscles.

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by Kelborn

[Scribe]

I'm probably not willing to debate the in's and out's, the pro's and con's of selling ones soul to the gods, but GW (Studio) sucks at writing once again it seems so thats just all we need say about that. ;)

[DarkChaplain]

Are you saying that based on the brief spoilers up here, or on the summary vids, or have you actually gotten to read the new Arks of Omen already?

Those are some pretty quick conclusions, tbh.

 

  

21 minutes ago, Scribe said:

but GW (Studio) sucks at writing once again it seems so thats just all we need say about that. ;)

 

While I'm not up to debating that topic either (it's honestly an old hat at this point), I kind of take issue with closing an argument with one's own conclusion rather than some sort of middle ground or lowest common denominator. Especially when few people have gotten to read the fluff yet, so it's hardly a conclusion they could reach.

Edited April 15, 2023 by DarkChaplain

[Scribe]

37 minutes ago, DarkChaplain said:

While I'm not up to debating that topic either (it's honestly an old hat at this point), I kind of take issue with closing an argument with one's own conclusion rather than some sort of middle ground or lowest common denominator. Especially when few people have gotten to read the fluff yet, so it's hardly a conclusion they could reach.

 

I mean, perhaps, somehow, GW could surprise me. However over the 2 decades+ I've followed the game/setting, its always been the case that the studio writing is vastly inferior to FW/BL, to a degree that is comical.

[Noserenda]

Yeah Sanguinius was in a right state when he started his duel with Angron, who by his very nature was in pretty much peak condition at the time.

Daemon Primarchs look much scarier but im not convinced they are much more powerful than their "mortal" forms. Thats a whole nother topic on the nature of primarchs ofc :D 

[Scribe]

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect

 

Essentially. And as the Daemon Primarchs can always come back, its just a cheap way to make the new guy look awesome. Lame.

[Fedor]

The daemon primarchs have slowly been neutered as a compelling threat, and turned into cartoon villains. Either outright defeated or foiled almost every single time they have been written recently. Any successes come from ancient background like Fulgrim vs Guilliman and Magnus sabotaging the Wolves successors.

 

This idea that it's justified by the gifts of the gods solely weakening you is revisionist, and something i've been seeing a lot of as the repetitively depicted defeats pile up. Of course falling to Chaos is not a good thing overall. It's a fools bargain metaphysically, and not some no stakes upgrade, but the writing (going back to the introduction of Chaos) has always been pretty clear that those ascending or corrupted do often gain various new strengths, as well as weaknesses. The background is built around a wargame after all; it's not tenable to have entire factions that have simply gimped themselves to no benefit at all, or are distinctly inferior to others.

 

So, in that context, the strengths tend to be in boosts of the brute force/raw power nature, physically and/or psychic, which is why the Chaos champions like Abaddon/ Khârn/Typhus, or daemon princes, tended to be portrayed as more formidable individual warriors than your typical named chapter masters/captains. Often needing something smarter than a 1 vs 1, head on approach to defeat when the writing is good. Yes, certain personality aspects of many them become twisted/dominant to the point of being an exploitable weakness (along with the usual daemon troubles manifesting) but not to the point where it's an eventual insta-win button in almost every conflict, which is where we're very close to with the daemon-primarchs in particular, by now. The writers DO try and have their cake and eat it by depicting them as significantly more powerful in various ways, yet flawed enough to always lose in the end; they don't portray them as having been weakened across the board. I wouldn't mind the pile of losses much if they didn't so often have them happen in some variety of 1 vs 1 melee duel, which is one of the areas those new gifts should be ideal in.

 

I think once GW revealed that Angron had new quick regen schtick, we all knew he was going to be getting banished a few times, especially once the return of the Lion was announced. He's even more disposable than the usual regenerating foe, despite the frankly silly new level of power and lucidity they had him displaying in his AoO book/novel, where they go out of their way to show this is Angron Upgraded Mark 2. So, you would think this bombastic approach to Angron's capabilities is potentially part of the writers moving away from using a 1 vs 1 duel as the way to resolve everything? Well, you can read a good chunk of their fight on that Arbitor Ian youtube summary...

 

Spoiler

 Hopefully there is some key details in the absent text, because it seems to hit almost every tiresome retread it could have avoided, with even a modicum of creativity. It looks like just a straight, drawn out 1 vs 1 with no support from watchers/other troops, no overrarching plan to deal with Angron's brute force and regenerating durability advantage, nothing particularly special as far as properties from the Emperor's shield goes....

 

Angron is back to being the almost mindless with rage Siege Angron. Don't know if it explains why; it's not because of the Lion, as he only dimly recognises him, and it explicitly saying all foes just blur into one nowadays, after 10,000 years of endless slaughter.

 

They eventually end up in a foggy/low visibility environment (Ian says it's a part of ancient caliban, but the text he shows doesn't confirm that) that the Lion feels is ideal for his hit and run strategy, and which mindless Angron struggles with. This is more interesting at least...so do they commit to it? does the Lion wear him down for a stealthy coup de grace? Well, seemingly...no. The next chunk of text starts with the "it blasted aside the veil of smog", which reveals the Lion suddenly caught in the open in the act of sneaking around his flank like a slapstick comedy.  Oh no, his advantage is gone, you cry! Never fear, as Angron just hurls himself at him and swings a hugely telegraphed attack, while the Lion casually drops to one knee and lets Angron run himself through on his sword. Then stands over a downed, impaled Angron (who is thrashing and howling now)  and smashes his skull in with his shield.

 

 

 

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Would be epic if it took both loyal primarchs working together to beat Angron. Using tactics, luring him into ambushes, charging into him as he's staggering from tank fire or planted bombs. But nope. The most braindead writing imaginable.

 

[DarkChaplain]

....just to reiterate: Angron isn't in Mike Brooks' novel. He is mentioned, but only in musings about the other Primarchs, by the one Primarch who actually is in it: Lion El'Jonson. Who the book is about.

 

Angron isn't even the star of Arks of Omen: The Lion. He's got an arguably smaller role in it than Vashtorr. But lo and behold, Angron had his own Arks of Omen book to look good in, AND a novel by David Guymer, which we even have a thread for.

 

Which is to say: Do we really need to get to page three of another Angron/Daemon Primarch Power Level argument? It's just.... been done so often, and it's not even relevant to this novel. Going by the AoO summaries, it also seems like a comparatively tiny part from the climax of the book, with the focus being on actually cool stuff that isn't the xth Primarch duel we've had in the past year. Heck, we probably got more of those than actual Primarchs now, despite a bunch of 'em being dead or floating in space by the time of the Siege.

 

  

6 minutes ago, Marshal Valkenhayn said:

Would be epic if it took both loyal primarchs working together to beat Angron. Using tactics, luring him into ambushes, charging into him as he's staggering from tank fire or planted bombs. But nope. The most braindead writing imaginable.

 

 

The two Primarchs haven't even met by the time the Arks of Omen storyline ends. Guilliman is not in the picture at all, and it'd be even more braindead if GW had him just zip around the galaxy, deep into Nihilus, just to show up last minute to steal the show from the Lion, Dante, Azrael and co.

....especially when the fight with Angron isn't even the point of the story being told.

 

And Angron does his job. Vashtorr and Abaddon succeed in their scheme, not least of all because Angron ties up the Lion. Chaos comes out on top with the final Arks of Omen book. But somehow instead of rejoicing that Chaos gets a win despite the Lion returning, Angron is being singled out for not being mean enough. Heck, you could even make the opposite argument and say that the Lion had his thunder stolen by way of a Chaos victory in his own entry.

Edited April 16, 2023 by DarkChaplain

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

35 minutes ago, DarkChaplain said:

....just to reiterate: Angron isn't in Mike Brooks' novel. He is mentioned, but only in musings about the other Primarchs, by the one Primarch who actually is in it: Lion El'Jonson. Who the book is about.

 

Angron isn't even the star of Arks of Omen: The Lion. He's got an arguably smaller role in it than Vashtorr. But lo and behold, Angron had his own Arks of Omen book to look good in, AND a novel by David Guymer, which we even have a thread for.

 

Which is to say: Do we really need to get to page three of another Angron/Daemon Primarch Power Level argument? It's just.... been done so often, and it's not even relevant to this novel. Going by the AoO summaries, it also seems like a comparatively tiny part from the climax of the book, with the focus being on actually cool stuff that isn't the xth Primarch duel we've had in the past year. Heck, we probably got more of those than actual Primarchs now, despite a bunch of 'em being dead or floating in space by the time of the Siege.

 

  

 

The two Primarchs haven't even met by the time the Arks of Omen storyline ends. Guilliman is not in the picture at all, and it'd be even more braindead if GW had him just zip around the galaxy, deep into Nihilus, just to show up last minute to steal the show from the Lion, Dante, Azrael and co.

....especially when the fight with Angron isn't even the point of the story being told.

 

 

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And Angron does his job. Vashtorr and Abaddon succeed in their scheme, not least of all because Angron ties up the Lion. Chaos comes out on top with the final Arks of Omen book. But somehow instead of rejoicing that Chaos gets a win despite the Lion returning, Angron is being singled out for not being mean enough. Heck, you could even make the opposite argument and say that the Lion had his thunder stolen by way of a Chaos victory in his own entry.
 

 

 

It would. But that isn't the point I was making. In this book you have the Lion set up his forces, gather the fallen, learn what's happening in the Imperium.

 

In AoO you have him forest walk in to save the Unforgiven from Angron, distract him for long enough to make the difference, then retreat because he can't fight him on his own.

 

In the future you have him search out ways to deal with all of these problems he can't solve on his own.

 

That is how you plot a story arc, and it's easy enough to do even across multiple authors. I know this is a thread for the Lion, and I'm glad that fans of him are getting their material. But man, a conflict is only as good as its antagonist, and Vashtorr certainly isn't stepping in to act as the physical threat. What they've done here isn't just hurt Angron, they've hurt the Lion by extention.

 

Though you're right, most of my issues come about in the AoO book, not this one. I should have payed better attention to the title not the last few messages.

[Fedor]

It's not a tiny part of the climax. There's a sub-heading focusing on it and what seems to be about three full pages worth of description, possibly more. the other stuff shown about the various ending events looked to have similar space for each.

 

It also seems to be the Lion's only significant contribution for most of his own entry. Lets be honest here, it's low effort fan-service to hype and sell the new model from a really popular faction. The attempts in the AoO books to coherently re-establish the Lion back into the picture as some ghostly legend of Nihilus (something they could actually have built up over the last few editions) who's already running around with a gang of fallen, and then just chillin' with the Blood Angels have been laughable. It's like they expected the upcoming BL book to carry even more weight than they usually do for lazy campaign supplement writing.

Edited April 16, 2023 by Fedor

[Kelborn]

Perhaps it is time for an Arks of Omen thread covering what was good, what wasn't, what implications we got for the future and so on, eh?

 

And keep this one for the Lion story which is a prequel to the fifth one.

[LemartestheLost]

The crazy thing to me is that there isn’t a single regular hardback on EBay yet, which I don’t think has ever happened before on preorder day. It’s extremely frustrating as someone who values a physical copy more than anything. There’s no way I’m waiting for 9 months to get the paperback either for a massive lore event like this either. This whole process has just gotten excruciating. I’m willing to pay a little extra for the regular hardback because I was going to splurge on the Special Edition anyway and I know how this song & dance goes, but to not even have that as an option is nuts.

[Krelious]

6 hours ago, LemartestheLost said:

The crazy thing to me is that there isn’t a single regular hardback on EBay yet, which I don’t think has ever happened before on preorder day. It’s extremely frustrating as someone who values a physical copy more than anything. There’s no way I’m waiting for 9 months to get the paperback either for a massive lore event like this either. This whole process has just gotten excruciating. I’m willing to pay a little extra for the regular hardback because I was going to splurge on the Special Edition anyway and I know how this song & dance goes, but to not even have that as an option is nuts.

I'm thinking of just not supporting GW anymore. I am sick of their :cuss: allowing this to happen which at this point it feels malicious as they surely know whats going on and they just don't care. I think a multibillion dollar company should be able to afford a website that can handle the pre-order load. Quite frankly since The End and the Death released I have lost interest in reading or buying products because of the scalpers and price gougers on ebay. The very fact they exist feels beyond insulting. It feels like to me like someone is throwing a smokebomb at me in a store and robbing my cart of what I intended to purchase and then immediately sitting outside the store and selling it for 6x the original price. What the scalpers do just feels like outright theft and then spitting in your face when you leave the store and telling you to buy it from them. I think whats worse is that people are buying the :cuss:ing books at those prices because it only encourages them to do this :cuss:.

[Nagashsnee]

Finished it, it was pretty solid. Not going to lie this is not the book i expected when i heard the Lion is coming back.  It both surpassed my general expections but also disapointed me in its lack of tackling even the smallest of my question. 

 

I think its going to be love it or hate it for the DA.

[Angel of Solitude]

I'm in the "love it" category, but in fairness I don't think it's possible to write a "The Lion returns..." book that would be acceptable to all.

 

Why do I love it? I think the challenge with bringing The Lion back was how to weave him into the 40k universe without massively disrupting the current setup. One of the early hypotheses was that the flawed, brooding, secretive, mis-trusting Lion of 30k would return, and somehow unite the 1st Legion in open civil war against Guiliman due to his perception that Guilliman was trying to be Emperor in the way that Horus did. However, this is not a reality that would play well in to how the table top game plays.

 

The other disruption is how you treat The Fallen, and the identity of the Dark Angels that is created by the relentless Hunt for the Fallen. Having The Lion come back and somehow unite/redeem The Fallen, and thus taking away the identity of the Dark Angels was also something that realistically couldn't happen.

Instead, what have we got?

 

Spoiler

We get a Lion who has aged beyond the cocky, assured confidence of early adulthood and has now turned into a reflective, wiser, more measured adult. He actively reflects on the mistakes that he made during the Horus Hersey, continually questioning if he made the right decisions. He acknowledges his weaknesses, and his consequential actions following his awakening have the feeling of redemption about them. I love that there is no ambition within The Lion to rule; only to protect. He does not demand loyalty or expect obedience because of his rank and status, but instead leads based on trust and acceptance. Given what we knew of the 30k Lion, this is a considerable change in approach, but to me it is believable and credible, given that he has had millenia to reflect on his actions and contribution to the Horus Heresy, and the outcomes that they resulted in.

 

As for The Fallen, again, it's plausible that there would be those on Caliban who essentially found themselves on the wrong side; loyal to the Emperor, and under the false impression that The Lion had turned against them. Their only communications from outside Caliban are those fed to them by the likes of Luther, Zahariel, Astellan and co, they have no reason to believe anything other than The Lion has sided with Horus. So when it is that they learn the truth from The Lion - that Caliban fired first - the offer for redemption is an easy one to take. Those that still sided with Luther are still very much to be hunted, and thus the identity of the Dark Angels is maintained - along with a mutual objective that is shared by both the Unforgiven Chapters and their Primarch.

 

Of course, we don't see the first meeting between The Lion and Azrael and co, or how they react to The Lion's "Risen", but I tell you this - I'm salivating at the books that will be coming that will explore this further!

 

 

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, Nagashsnee said:

Finished it, it was pretty solid. Not going to lie this is not the book i expected when i heard the Lion is coming back.  It both surpassed my general expections but also disapointed me in its lack of tackling even the smallest of my question. 

 

I think its going to be love it or hate it for the DA.

 

The book or AoO?

[Karhedron]

On 4/15/2023 at 6:11 PM, Vassakov said:

  Hide contents

Won't answer a lot of questions about exactly how The Lion returned

 

That is pretty disapointing because that is one of the big questions I want answering. What happened and why now?

[Nagashsnee]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

 

The book or AoO?

The bl book. No real interest in the campaign book lore will get the gist off you tube. 

[Blindhamster]

Interested to see how the lion came back and how his meeting with Dante went. 
 

also

Spoiler

People moaning about the lion beating Angron, in fairness, by the time the lion fights Angron, Angron has just beaten Dante, killed most of the sanguinary guard, belial is similarly wrecked as are a load of deathwing among others. I.e. two of the most powerful members of two chapters along with chunks of the most powerful units of those chapters. Angron hardly comes across as a schmuck. 

 

[wecanhaveallthree]

I haven't had the pleasure of reading a Brooks book before, and I enjoy experimenting with style as much as anyone, but I don't think this was really it.

 

Spoiler

Possibly the most milquetoast portrayal of the Lion possible. I've written here at length about what I wanted to see in terms of his portrayal, and I don't think this is going to satisfy anybody. This doesn't feel like the Lion. It's Guilliman with a beard and no bite. 

 

[Nagashsnee]

1 hour ago, Blindhamster said:

Interested to see how the lion came back and how his meeting with Dante went. 
 

also

  Hide contents

People moaning about the lion beating Angron, in fairness, by the time the lion fights Angron, Angron has just beaten Dante, killed most of the sanguinary guard, belial is similarly wrecked as are a load of deathwing among others. I.e. two of the most powerful members of two chapters along with chunks of the most powerful units of those chapters. Angron hardly comes across as a schmuck. 

 

Spoiler

He just wakes up in a warp forest with no memory. Thats it. 

 

As per Dante its barely covered, they meet the Lion freaks out at Dantes death mask finds out g man is alive and it ends.

 

This book is 100% focussed on old man lion and the fallen.