The Lion - Son of the Forest by Mike Brooks

[Scribe]

9 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

I think not explaining it entirely now let's them do more with it later.

 

Yeah. I hope they dont lose sight of the fact that the warp is...like space, but hell, but also not space, where time and matter do not exist, and that the webway exists and is important for a reason...

[BitsHammer]

36 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Yeah. I hope they dont lose sight of the fact that the warp is...like space, but hell, but also not space, where time and matter do not exist, and that the webway exists and is important for a reason...

It could be how he perceives the Warp, or it could be a space in the Warp that is controlled by the Watchers.

 

At least it works better than Draigo does.

[Knockagh]

18 hours ago, b1soul said:

@Knockagh

Wouldn't label Brooks as just the Ork comedy guy. His Alpharius and Navigators are pretty darn good. If his Lion is anywhere near as well developed as his Alpharius, we're in for a treat.

Agreed I did enjoy both of these. His ork books I’ve found beyond grating though. Harrowmaster, Huron and wanted dead are other poor offerings.

[Moonreaper666]

I wanna read Lion's reaction to the Cherubael 'angels'. Then Guilliman explaining to him how different, screwed up, the Imperium is 10k years later

[Azoriel]

21 hours ago, BitsHammer said:

Here's the how Johnson and the First Fallen reconcile

  Reveal hidden contents

‘Do you swear to me by whatever you hold most dear that you remained loyal? That you, the Lion, loved the Emperor and humanity, and that you only raised your hand to your gene-sons because you thought you were betrayed?’

The Lion growls deep in his throat at being questioned so by one of his warriors, but he holds his tongue. It seems he has much to learn, and Zabriel’s obvious age immediately suggests that he may know more than any of the humans of Camarth. Besides, the Lion has no reason not to give the honest answer beyond that of stubborn pride, and he has seen how that can tear the galaxy apart. 

 

‘I swear it,’ he says. Zabriel reaches up to accept his hand, and the Lion
pulls him to his feet. 

This strikes me as being reminiscent of the scene in John Boorman's Excalibur, where young Arthur gives Excalibur over to Uryens, demanding that Uryens knight Arthur so that Uryens can surrender to an equal, and Uryens is so impressed that he does so.  Though I imagine that's precisely what the author was going for.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Azoriel
spacing problems

[Kelborn]

I'll take one day of to avoid spoilers for a certain season finale and see what happens...

Short timeout for this thread until I've sorted things accordingly.

 

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Kelborn

[Ubiquitous1984]

Spoiler

I enjoyed the book, but I suspect many will be disappointed as it could have been so much more.  It felt very much like a studio tie-in novel, with all the constraints you’d expect GW to ask of the author.  A series of books, perhaps with more time given to the author to complete the work, would have been amazing.  

 

Someone mentioned before the lack of tension in the book and I think this is my biggest gripe.  However the lack of tension and the writing style make it such an easy read, especially as the last book I read was Abnett’s SoT tomb.  I find some BL novels difficult to follow, but at no point in this book did I not understand what was going on, or the significance of the actors involved.  Some will be put off by this, but for a book as important as the Lion’s return, I understand why they went down this path.

 

One thing I don’t think has been picked up on here yet, is how the Lion was quite happy to be worshipped as a God if it helped give the Imperial subjects hope in the face of the perils of the Rift … this appears to be at odds with Guilliman (although post-Godblight perhaps this will change?) either way it’s laying the foundations for future conflict IMO.

 

Lastly and this is only a very minor gripe, it would have been nice for Dante to have introduced himself as the Warden of I.N., rather than just Commander of the BA’s.  He very much made himself sub-servant to Lion from the very start.  It would have been interesting to have seen some tension added between the two and their respective status in the current era.  Alas having also read the spoilers for AOO it appears this will not be explored further.

 

[chevalierdulys]

Question regarding the book and arks of omen. I know the arks of omen stuff is more overall vision of the situation whilst the book is more focus on lion "adventure" after awakening up. Does anyone know if there are like order to read? Should I read first the novel then arks of omen or the other way around?

Thank you all

[lansalt]

4 minutes ago, chevalierdulys said:

Question regarding the book and arks of omen. I know the arks of omen stuff is more overall vision of the situation whilst the book is more focus on lion "adventure" after awakening up. Does anyone know if there are like order to read? Should I read first the novel then arks of omen or the other way around?

Thank you all

The novel is basically a prequel to the Arks of Omen book.

[BitsHammer]

Book is up on Audible for those who prefer such things

[The Emperors Champion22]

On 4/17/2023 at 8:08 PM, BitsHammer said:

I agree that his hands were likely tied to fit within certain boundaries, but I don't think he wrote a bad story even with constraints.

 

I get that there are some bitter feelings towards the book but it sounds more like people wanted a Lion who comes out of sleep and vows to break his sword off in Guilliman's backside.and.are upset that GW didn't go that direction.

 

That Lion was something the community invented though and assumed would.exist and I have trouble faulting GW for not matching expectations for something they never even hinted at doing.

 

For those yet to read it, this is a tie in book for Arks of Omen. It serves one job: establishing how the Lion started traveling with the Fallen, why his armour looks like that now and where he found his wargear. The Lion doesn't meet Guilliman,.Luther, or Cypher. Nor does it say those meetings in the future with be sunshine and rainbows over a tea party.

 

The book answers the questions asked, gives us a plausible set up that allows the Lion to be gathering the Fallen for his Arks of Omen story and that is it.

 

Brooks was handed that assignment and frankly gave us one of the better tie in books GW has done for something like this.

 

So I get that it's a #NotMyLion book for some but honestly that has more to do with the fanfiction people wrote for the Lion before he.returned and not some kind of unfulfilled promise from GW. The Lion doesn't come back and start trying to fix the governments Imperium Nihlus like Guilliman, instead he is hunting any foe that sets itself against humanity.

 

Maybe that's not enough for some people but that is what I would expect from the Primarch novel who cleared the forests of Caliban of great beasts. It's what I expect of the Primarch who destroyed the Rangdan from not only the galaxy but history. It's what I expect of the Primarch who put the extermination of the Khrave over Ullanor.

 

I am only now listening to Descent of Lion's but from Luther, from his Primarch novel, from the short story I quoted earlier in the thread I went into the book expecting a knight who rides out to slay monsters, not a hollowed Dark Souls boss so caught up in their rage they keep making the same mistakes endless times. 

 

The Lion may walk the spiral and the spiral may repeat but as a Primarch if he always makes the same mistakes forever it undercuts his Primarch genius. The Lion is not defined by his rage. That is Angron's personality. Stagnation is Mortarion's. Politics is Guilliman's. The Lion's personality is defines by the hunt. And as long as he hunts then I can't say he isn't the Lion.

i just dont like that they made him old and weaker. having him age because he slept is a weak excuse, primarchs are supposed to be immortal demi gods and now we've gotten a geriatric one back.

[Nagashsnee]

8 minutes ago, The Emperors Champion22 said:

i just dont like that they made him old and weaker. having him age because he slept is a weak excuse, primarchs are supposed to be immortal demi gods and now we've gotten a geriatric one back.

 

He single handily takes on and defeats Deamon Angron, how is this weaker? Even peak Heresy Lion should not be able to do it, nevermind old man lion. 

 

GW can spend 100 novels telling me he is weaker but if they also spend 100 campaign books having him come out on top of the best fighters in the universe then the only thing they have told me is either their authors suck and cant lay out a clear message, or they dont care much if they do. 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[Gederas]

I mean, it's probably how Custodes become Eyes of the Emperor. They're not decrepit when older, but they notice they're slightly less than what they were. But in general it's not a difference enough to matter in the scheme of things.

 

4 hours ago, chevalierdulys said:

Question regarding the book and arks of omen. I know the arks of omen stuff is more overall vision of the situation whilst the book is more focus on lion "adventure" after awakening up. Does anyone know if there are like order to read? Should I read first the novel then arks of omen or the other way around?

Thank you all

The novel is a prequel to the Arks of Omen, essentially,

[BitsHammer]

4 hours ago, The Emperors Champion22 said:

i just dont like that they made him old and weaker. having him age because he slept is a weak excuse, primarchs are supposed to be immortal demi gods and now we've gotten a geriatric one back.

He slowed by microseconds at most and nothing about the Primarchs says they are incapable of aging. Well except maybe Vulkan since he's a perpetual.

3 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

 

He single handily takes on and defeats Deamon Angron, how is this weaker? Even peak Heresy Lion should not be able to do it, nevermind old man lion. 

 

GW can spend 100 novels telling me he is weaker but if they also spend 100 campaign books having him come out on top of the best fighters in the universe then the only thing they have told me is either their authors suck and cant lay out a clear message, or they dont care much if they do. 

He used tactics and strategy so it wasn't a contest of strength to win that fight.

 

Also there is a time gap between the end of Son of the Forest and Arks of Omen. He had time to get used to his new limits and rehone his skills.

[Fedor]

Not much tactics/strategy in the spoiled chunks of that fight i've seen beyond him fighting defensively, which can take just as much effort as being aggressive, depending on how much movement is involved. No watchers giving anti-daemon support; no use of other troops to set traps; the shield doesn't seem to  do much with its special properties other than being a good shield...it's just a big drawn out duel, with no engagement between the two other than that. It hits a lot of aspects i hoped they would avoid with a more creative, less 1 vs 1 obsessed approach.

 

  The time gap between what brooks has tried to, as far as setting him up as a relatively physically declined/out of shape character that is having to regain sharpness/strength (still being relatively weak seeming compared to the 30k version at the end of the book) and having the stamina for a mighty, extended duel with an indefatigable opponent supposed to be one of the deadliest melee threats in the setting? Seems to be a nice roadtrip with Dante.

 

The writers don't even commit to the hit and run/stealth strategy they set up as being the key to Lion's victory when the two end up in a really low visibility area, and Lion is able to start turning things in his favour. Lion's advantage is taken away, he gets caught cold out in the open trying to sneak around him like Bugs Bunny trolling Elmer Fudd, and then just kills him anyway with a move that seems like it could have worked a lot earlier and spared us three/four pages of fight, given how mindless Angron is again during the duel.

 

Another thing that bothers me as well, is that battle worn sanguinius's feat in banishing Angron at Eternity Gate was supposed to be the ultimate backs to the wall underdog victory, against a foe that had so far proved unbeatable in its own niche, needing wider use of troops/tactics to defeat than just glorious melee...something distinct and memorable in the setting. Regardless of any issues with depiction of that scene or not, GW have taken barely any time at all in stripping the unique nature (and much of the gravitas) out by having old man Lion one-up it so they can sell his new model, without even bothering to consider if this actually makes good narrative sense right now, within the arc they seemingly want BL to construct for the character.

 

He didn't even need the BL special!

Edited April 23, 2023 by Kelborn

[MarineRaiderII]

I liked the story. It was entertaining. I agree with the notion of not liking an aging Lion, but could make for an interesting read from RG when he sees him finally. I have questions but will read it again before voicing them.

[Moonreaper666]

4 hours ago, Fedor said:

Not much tactics/strategy in the spoiled chunks of that fight i've seen beyond him fighting defensively, which can take just as much effort as being aggressive, depending on how much movement is involved. No watchers giving anti-daemon support; no use of other troops to set traps; the shield doesn't seem to  do much with its special properties other than being a good shield...it's just a big drawn out duel, with no engagement between the two other than that. It hits a lot of aspects i hoped they would avoid with a more creative, less 1 vs 1 obsessed approach.

 

  The time gap between what brooks has tried to, as far as setting him up as a relatively physically declined/out of shape character that is having to regain sharpness/strength (still being relatively weak seeming compared to the 30k version at the end of the book) and having the stamina for a mighty, extended duel with an indefatigable opponent supposed to be one of the deadliest melee threats in the setting? Seems to be a nice roadtrip with Dante.

 

The writers don't even commit to the hit and run/stealth strategy they set up as being the key to Lion's victory when the two end up in a really low visibility area, and Lion is able to start turning things in his favour. Lion's advantage is taken away, he gets caught cold out in the open trying to sneak around him like Bugs Bunny trolling Elmer Fudd, and then just kills him anyway with a move that seems like it could have worked a lot earlier and spared us three/four pages of fight, given how mindless Angron is again during the duel.

 

Another thing that bothers me as well, is that battle worn sanguinius's feat in banishing Angron at Eternity Gate was supposed to be the ultimate backs to the wall underdog victory, against a foe that had so far proved unbeatable in its own niche, needing wider use of troops/tactics to defeat than just glorious melee...something distinct and memorable in the setting. Regardless of any issues with depiction of that scene or not, GW have taken barely any time at all in stripping the unique nature (and much of the gravitas) out by having old man Lion one-up it so they can sell his new model, without even bothering to consider if this actually makes good narrative sense right now, within the arc they seemingly want BL to construct for the character.

 

He didn't even need the BL special!

 

I'm ok with the Lion beating

Angron AS LONG AS THE FOLLOWING ARE ALL TRUE:

 

-Angron was not at full power and somewhat exhausted

 

-Lion won't be able to beat Angron TWICE without help or using a different strategy

 

-Fulgrim, Magnus, Lorgar, Perturabo, Vashtorr, Be'lakor AND Mortarion HARD-COUNTER Lion and can easily CURBSTOMP him!!!

 

(Contrasting Lion with Guilliman by giving them different results fighting the same Traitor Primarchs)

[Krelious]

I havent really looked at this thread to avoid spoilers but I think its utterly insane that people are instantly buying a regular hardback book that costs 32$ a week ago for 150$ on ebay. I mean with the state of the world and all the inflation going on, seeing how people are struggling I could not rationalize that expenditure to myself, not only that the people who are buying from the scalpers and gougers only encourage them. I have this feeling like some bad :cuss: is going to happen with the world economy and then someone is gonna look at their bookshelf and say "You know at the time spending that money on those books at the time seemed like a good idea but now I dont have anything to eat."

 

I think at the very least GW should address this situation as their silence on the issue of their website crashing is defeaning. I mean whats going on is highly immoral and should be illegal, to me its showing a complete failing on why real products should not be exclusively sold on the internet. 

[BitsHammer]

GW isn't going to say anything that annoys the shareholders.

[b1soul]

Quite possible that between SotF and AoO, the Lion is rejuvenated somehow, perhaps through self-belief Warp mojo or the Emperor’s Shield. Still looks older but has the Emp’s power coursing through him.

[BitsHammer]

1 hour ago, b1soul said:

Quite possible that between SotF and AoO, the Lion is rejuvenated somehow, perhaps through self-belief Warp mojo or the Emperor’s Shield. Still looks older but has the Emp’s power coursing through him.

The Emperor's Shield, at least in Son of the Forest, has some anti-warp properties too.

[Ubiquitous1984]

3 hours ago, BitsHammer said:

The Emperor's Shield, at least in Son of the Forest, has some anti-warp properties too.

Spoiler

Not just anti-warp properties - it was said in the novel to be akin to the Emperor’s warp aegis around the Imperial Palace.  We saw the strength of this throughout the SoT series - it was a hard counter to the demonic incursions, Angron in particular struggled to breach it.

 

It’s a difficult concept for us to quantify compared to a big, flaming sword.  Heroes in 40K don’t really wield defensive weapons - they are all about cool swords or guns.  It’s going to need more work from BL to actually show its capabilities, not just tell.

 

[Karhedron]

4 hours ago, Ubiquitous1984 said:

  Hide contents

Not just anti-warp properties - it was said in the novel to be akin to the Emperor’s warp aegis around the Imperial Palace.  We saw the strength of this throughout the SoT series - it was a hard counter to the demonic incursions, Angron in particular struggled to breach it.

 

It’s a difficult concept for us to quantify compared to a big, flaming sword.  Heroes in 40K don’t really wield defensive weapons - they are all about cool swords or guns.  It’s going to need more work from BL to actually show its capabilities, not just tell.

 

I think it doesn't help that the rules for the Shield in 9th edition are a bit underwhelming, it is not even as good as a Stormshield.

[ArielRSA]

Enjoyed this. Fine read. I feel that it had the weird rushed ending a lot of BL books have

Edited April 23, 2023 by ArielRSA

[kamedake88]

I love this f'ing book. No real review from me because my opinion is biased to the extreme. As an aside my first army was Dark Angels and Angels of Darkness got me into the lore side of the setting. The book reads more like an extended recollection of events rather than a narrative novel and I am fine with it. Give me more. This book could have been six hundred thousand words more and I wouldn't be bored in the least. 

Edited April 24, 2023 by kamedake88