Blurring between Firstborn and Primaris incoming with 10th?

[b1soul]

 

Title of the video is a bit midleading/click-baity

 

...but sounds like they could all be using the same scale models in the future, and as Firstborn and Primaris continue to integrate in the fluff timeline, some Firstborn could operate as intercessors etc. and some Primaris could operate as terminators etc. So an exchange of gear/tactics between the two generations...along with SM models on the tabletop now reflecting how Firstborn and Primaris don't look much different (in fluff, there's a somewhat noticeable height difference but nothing like the massive difference between heroic scale vs. true scale).

 

Looking forward, this would help with phasing out Firstborn (almost) entirely if Primaris can now do everything Firstborn can do. They would in effect be interchangeable except giving Primaris slightly stronger stats/rules.

Edited April 5, 2023 by b1soul

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Valrak's only been saying this for months.

[Stupidity]

Good

Also, just as expected

[sitnam]

It won’t be a bad thing, I just hope some semblance of MKVII plate sticks around. It’s such a classic look for marines, I’d hate to see it go completely.

[Urauloth]

Primaris are still going to be distinct in the lore, what with being taller and having the Belisarian furnace etc. They seem to be losing their specialness a bit even there, though - I notice there are chaos corrupted Primaris in Arks of Omen: Angron, which is something they held off pulling the trigger on for a long time. (Saying that, they might not be - they're certainly corrupted Ultramarines in Mk X armour, which means if they aren't Primaris, then they're issuing Mk X to firstborn now, which is further evidence of the lines blurring)

 

As for firstborn armour styles, I doubt they'll disappear completely. We'll probably see new-scale Mk VIII eventually for the Heresy, if nothing else.

[darkangels91]

Just give us upgrade kits. MkVII and MKVIII torso frames and helmet frames. And let us kitbash them onto Primaris bodies. 

[darkangels91]

2 hours ago, b1soul said:

 

Title of the video is a bit midleading/click-baity

 

...but sounds like they could all be using the same scale models in the future, and as Firstborn and Primaris continue to integrate in the fluff timeline, some Firstborn could operate as intercessors etc. and some Primaris could operate as terminators etc. So an exchange of gear/tactics between the two generations...along with SM models on the tabletop now reflecting how Firstborn and Primaris don't look much different (in fluff, there's a somewhat noticeable height difference but nothing like the massive difference between heroic scale vs. true scale).

 

Looking forward, this would help with phasing out Firstborn (almost) entirely if Primaris can now do everything Firstborn can do. They would in effect be interchangeable except giving Primaris slightly stronger stats/rules.

In fluff and lore pre dating Primaris, firstborn space marines were average height x but dating all the way back to the heresy, just like primarchs, the height of marines ranges quite a bit. Some were barely taller or equal to tall humans, while some were monstrously tall. Look up Ranulf the Wolf Guard Terminator, so large he required custom terminator armor that dwarfed others. 
 

Now along comes Primaris, they are average height x but it only is logical that there are Primaris that are also larger and smaller than their average brothers. So you’re also going to have firstborn space marines that are above average that are equal to or greater than in height than their below average Primaris brothers. 
 

So the reality of the situation is just that when GW wrote up the rules for Primaris they just did a piss poor job of integration and using common sense of sharing of wargear and battle tactics. Cuz let’s be honest who’s tactics are you going to use, the new kid on the block that got a data Jack plugged into him and learned his tactics from papa cawl or from the warlords who have been fighting across the galaxy for the last 10k years and drill and train every fething day they aren’t at war? 

[Arkangilos]

29 minutes ago, darkangels91 said:

Some were barely taller or equal to tall humans

Wasn’t this incredibly rare? I’ve maybe only ever heard of it once. And that’s if I actually did hear of it.

[Scribe]

Good, sooner this unfortunate offshoot of the lore is forgotten, the better.

[WARMASTER_]

3 hours ago, darkangels91 said:

In fluff and lore pre dating Primaris, firstborn space marines were average height x but dating all the way back to the heresy, just like primarchs, the height of marines ranges quite a bit. Some were barely taller or equal to tall humans, while some were monstrously tall. Look up Ranulf the Wolf Guard Terminator, so large he required custom terminator armor that dwarfed others. 
 

Now along comes Primaris, they are average height x but it only is logical that there are Primaris that are also larger and smaller than their average brothers. So you’re also going to have firstborn space marines that are above average that are equal to or greater than in height than their below average Primaris brothers. 
 

So the reality of the situation is just that when GW wrote up the rules for Primaris they just did a piss poor job of integration and using common sense of sharing of wargear and battle tactics. Cuz let’s be honest who’s tactics are you going to use, the new kid on the block that got a data Jack plugged into him and learned his tactics from papa cawl or from the warlords who have been fighting across the galaxy for the last 10k years and drill and train every fething day they aren’t at war? 

I think the statement on some Marines being barely taller than humans can kind of a misleading as which humans? Because Marines are typically depicted as around 7 feet+ but there’s most definitely a proportion of the human population alive now that are already around that height [Strongmen + NBA players most visibly] It’s their sheer size and bulk which is truly extraordinary from baseline humans not really height 

 

That said…

 

The issue is as you rightly say is that GW had a very hard decision to make regarding integration within the lore,On one hand they’ve made much taller, better proportioned SM models with Primaris [Great News] on the other hand they’re now going to outrage most of the existing SM player base as they make 30ish years of design and quite a new range of SM models almost obsolete from a vastly different scale and aesthetic [Booo] so they made the call of two distinct factions of SM’s within the setting [With some VERY shaky lore on size and genesis] to hopefully annoy the least amount of people and because of that they’ve now been in a tricky spot lore wise for about 6 years!
 

The main issue being now is Primaris have ONLY been depicted as towering over their FB brethren so suddenly having them share armour and equipment is jarring statement to me 

Edited April 5, 2023 by WARMASTER_
Spelling

[b1soul]

I don't think Primaris are going away in the lore...it's more like Firstborn will move to Primaris scale on the tabletop and the two groups will start sharing gear on the tabletop and in the lore.

 

The Firstborn scale upgrade is just a tabletop visual correction to align with existing lore: on average, Primaris are moderately taller but nothing like this (where the Firstborn is totally dwarfed)...

 

And the sharing of gear could just be explained in-lore as Cawl and Guilliman initially deploying Primaris only as the new types: aggressor, reiver, inceptor etc., but as they were integrated with Firstborn chapters, there was a melding of gear and tactics. This would also make sense with the new, shortened timeline of current 40K being like 12 to 20 years after Primaris first show up. It's believable that this "blurring" took about that time to reach critical mass. It would be weird if this blurring only became more widespread after 112 years plus (the old timeline).

[TrawlingCleaner]

=][= I've moved this to the Adeptus Astartes subforum as it's a better fit here =][=

[Karhedron]

If it means I can load my Hellblasters into a Rhino, it's all good. 

[b1soul]

"Primaris all operating as new unit types and Firstborn all operating as traditional unit types" always seemed very arbitrary.

 

This should just means everyone gets to enjoy true scale and players can do on the tabletop whatever they want narratively...

 

1. Primaris who were trained as traditional unit types: check

2. Primaris who are sticking with their new roles: check

3. Firstborn who adopted the new roles for whatever reason: check

4. Firstborn who stayed traditionalist: check

5. Mixture of the above: please do

 

I still believe the introduction of the Primaris concept has a lot of storytelling potential, so was never opposed to the idea of a new generation of moderately improved SM...and some intergenerational learning and friction. Maybe it could've been introduced with less emphasis on Cawl, but the Primaris/Firstborn relationship is worth exploring further, I think.

[Kallas]

31 minutes ago, b1soul said:

The Firstborn scale upgrade is just a tabletop visual correction to align with existing lore: on average, Primaris are moderately taller but nothing like this (where the Firstborn is totally dwarfed)...

If we get an actual Firstborn kit (eg, Tactical Squad) with proper proportions, then the lines begin to blur massively, because the problem with Firstborn models is that they are not realistic proportions.

 

They have overly large heads, small/no abdomen, and relatively large arms. This is just because that's what GW could do over the last 30 years, but the modeling techniques (ie, digital sculpting) lets them actually make correctly scaled anatomy. So give us some proper refreshed Firstborn and suddenly the divide will melt away as likely the biggest division between Firstborn and Primaris models will be essentially gone (ie, Primaris models being much larger).

 

We know that GW are deliberately, actively blurring the lines with Terminators being almost perfectly faithful to the current Indomitus design, but scaled properly and able to be fielded as either kind.

[Kallas]

12 minutes ago, b1soul said:

I still believe the introduction of the Primaris concept has a lot of storytelling potential, so was never opposed to the idea of a new generation of moderately improved SM...and some intergenerational learning and friction. Maybe it could've been introduced with less emphasis on Cawl, but the Primaris/Firstborn relationship is worth exploring further, I think.

If they'd done it well, yes, but they did it badly with things like "97% of Chapters" accepting them without issue, then all of the detractors submitting without fussing 5 minutes later.

 

A proper internal schism between loyalist Imperials could have actually been interesting, but the setting was made just that bit smaller by homogenizing the acceptance in the lore. 

 

Also yes, Cawl needed (and still needs) to be involved way less. They make it sound like he made every piece of gear, and it just comes off Mary Sueish in a 5th Ed Matt Wardian way. He's the best, so he's involved in literally everything! 

 

Anyway. With GW actively seeking to reduce the divide, maybe we'll see less Cawl Flanderisation (eg, not everything is Cawl-pattern This, or Belisarius-pattern That; like how all Blood Angels equipment was Blood Bolts, and Blood Claws and... Yeah.)

[WARMASTER_]

1 hour ago, Kallas said:

If we get an actual Firstborn kit (eg, Tactical Squad) with proper proportions, then the lines begin to blur massively, because the problem with Firstborn models is that they are not realistic proportions.

 

They have overly large heads, small/no abdomen, and relatively large arms. This is just because that's what GW could do over the last 30 years, but the modeling techniques (ie, digital sculpting) lets them actually make correctly scaled anatomy. So give us some proper refreshed Firstborn and suddenly the divide will melt away as likely the biggest division between Firstborn and Primaris models will be essentially gone (ie, Primaris models being much larger).

 

We know that GW are deliberately, actively blurring the lines with Terminators being almost perfectly faithful to the current Indomitus design, but scaled properly and able to be fielded as either kind.

The issue is there is we already have correctly [better] proportioned FB with the new CSM sculpts and they’re still quite a bit smaller than the Primaris range 

 

I’d be overjoyed if they remake the FB MKVII range as I massively prefer them

but I’d imagine they’d stick to the current SM heroes + CSM rather than being Primaris scale and even though they look great compared to the older FB sculpts wouldn’t easily explain away this idea of sharing armour as there’s clearly still a size difference in the models and lore

 

Lore “tinkering” would definitely have to be done…. again 

[Kallas]

1 hour ago, WARMASTER_ said:

Lore “tinkering” would definitely have to be done…. again 

I don't think anyone has ever accused GW of writing the best lore 

 

If they are looking at reducing the divide (that they created in the first place just to sell more models) then it's probably going to be one of four things:

1. All Firstborn become Primaris 

2. Primaris are retconned into being less larger (that doesn't sound right, but that's the best way I can find to write it)

3. MkX gear gets a bit retconned to being more malleable and able to be scaled more than older Marks of power armour 

4. They just ignore the size inconsistency and plough on!

 

Since it's GW, it could be any of them, or another one that I didn't think of.

 

[Orange Knight]

4 hours ago, Kallas said:

If they'd done it well, yes, but they did it badly with things like "97% of Chapters" accepting them without issue, then all of the detractors submitting without fussing 5 minutes later.

 

 

They did it very well in actual Black Library novels over the last 6 years. Lots of drama, introspection, etc

 

They have actually put the issue to bed in the most recent lore (and I would have done this differently) - any Marine can simply cross the Rubicon, and the method is now a lot safer and improving with each attempt. All the legendary heroes have crossed and their chapters and successors will follow the example.

 

In the lore, it makes literally no sense for an Astartes not to get the upgrades. They become stronger and more durable, and now Primaris can wear the most venerable armour available to Marines - the iconic Terminator suits.

 

The blurring of the distinction isn't backtracking on Primaris, it's simply moving the classic Marines on. Some mental gymnastics will be required to justify the continual existence of the old line within the lore itself. As I said, GW have been pretty final with this in respect to the lore, but it remains to be seen how this will be reflected on the tabletop in the future. 

 

The keyword is definitely going away, and some beloved vehicles will get a new lease of life.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Orange Knight

[ZeroWolf]

With regards to the older Marks on the tabletop, I can see GW extending HH to a sort of 40k historical, so they can sell sets relating to all pre-rift conflicts.

 

Though I can definitely see the Black Library calling a book "the last firstborn" if they ever did make all marines in lore primaris.

[SickSix]

I still can't believe people really believe GWs long term plan is to keep making Firstborn model line alongside Primaris. It's crazy. Primaris can now be our beloved Indominus Terminators.  So once Primaris get proper jump pack choppy slashy boys there is really nothing stopping them from discontinuing First Born. I expect a refreshed or Cawlized Land Raidrer kit in the next 12 months. Then really what role do you still need firstborn for? Not much.

[DesuVult]

52 minutes ago, SickSix said:

I still can't believe people really believe GWs long term plan is to keep making Firstborn model line alongside Primaris. It's crazy. Primaris can now be our beloved Indominus Terminators.  So once Primaris get proper jump pack choppy slashy boys there is really nothing stopping them from discontinuing First Born. I expect a refreshed or Cawlized Land Raidrer kit in the next 12 months. Then really what role do you still need firstborn for? Not much.

People have been saying there is nothing stopping firstborn from being removed for over year now.  GW explicitly called out terminators as firstborn or primaris.  People who worked at GW have said GW never saw there being a big difference between firstborn and primaris.

Edited April 5, 2023 by DesuVult

[Orange Knight]

2 minutes ago, DesuVult said:

People have been saying there is nothing stopping firstborn from being removed for over years now.  GW explicitly called out terminators as firstborn or primaris.  People who worked at GW have said GW never saw there being a big difference between firstborn and primaris.

 

They did indeed. And you know what will happen?

 

People who still hate Primaris will buy them.

 

And there isn't really a big difference between them - Both are genetically engineered super soldiers in power armour, who ride around in blocky vehicles.

[apologist]

GW made a rod for their own backs by having an in-universe reason for the difference in scale/proportions between older and newer models. The last time they did this with marines was unheralded – we just started getting more mark VII models than mark VI. That was a long time ago, but similar changes in designs language for other ranges (like the orks or Dark Eldar, for example) all went unheralded in the lore.

 

I guess it's the curse of being the most visible and popular line, that the Space Marines redesign had to be handled with kid gloves.

 

Either way, I hope that the distinction is made less of in the coming edition – if only to stop feeding the circular arguments that pop up.

[WARMASTER_]

8 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

They did it very well in actual Black Library novels over the last 6 years. Lots of drama, introspection, etc

 

They have actually put the issue to bed in the most recent lore (and I would have done this differently) - any Marine can simply cross the Rubicon, and the method is now a lot safer and improving with each attempt. All the legendary heroes have crossed and their chapters and successors will follow the example.

 

In the lore, it makes literally no sense for an Astartes not to get the upgrades. They become stronger and more durable, and now Primaris can wear the most venerable armour available to Marines - the iconic Terminator suits.

 

The blurring of the distinction isn't backtracking on Primaris, it's simply moving the classic Marines on. Some mental gymnastics will be required to justify the continual existence of the old line within the lore itself. As I said, GW have been pretty final with this in respect to the lore, but it remains to be seen how this will be reflected on the tabletop in the future. 

 

The keyword is definitely going away, and some beloved vehicles will get a new lease of life.

Having read the majority of the BL books in the last 5+ years I’d say the lore has been muddled at best since the Primaris inception as an overarching theme. The individual Marine level character development and conflict has mostly been done great by the better authors 

 

Ive seen you say this been but it really hasn’t been put to bed, Azrael died crossing the Rubicon and had to spend months recovering [Like all Marines] as of the most recent lore released by GW I know GH stated in one book they’re getting better and it will be safe for all soon but it seems like another backtrack from GW

 

If we also ignore the fact of lack of apothecaries to preform surgeries, constant deployment of Marines, not having the time to have serval hundred + Marines own of action for months to recover post surgery and available resources to now equip said marines in new MKX power armour then yes I see no reason why every Marine wouldn’t just cross the rubicon 

 

Unless GW move the timeline forward a meaningful amount the you’ll need a lot of lore changes to say all marines are Primaris now 

 

That said it’s good Keyword is going as everyone should just get to play with the toys they want