Blurring between Firstborn and Primaris incoming with 10th?

[WARMASTER_]

26 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Had Sigismund been alive in the Era Indomitus he would have beaten Calgar as the first existing marine to cross the Rubicon primaris.

Or…. Regarded Cawl as a Heretic for tampering with the Emperor’s divine work? Could go either way really 

[Crimson Longinus]

13 minutes ago, Marshal Valkenhayn said:

 

I don't like the beaky helmets. Fight me old timer.

 

 

 

Primaris with a beakie, truly the best of both worlds.

 

 

[Orange Knight]

4 minutes ago, DesuVult said:

Your posts assert you feel firstborn is an insult.  You call it a snide title and say it has intentional meaning, then make references to Jesus and inheritance where "firstborn" is important.  You just stated that you can sense smugness and superiority behind it.  The way you brought that up, dodged a series of responses on the topic, and then shortly after brought it back up makes it appear to me that it is a sore spot to you and even potentially targetted given your previous statement that is is "clever."

 

I explained why the term "Firstborn" is packed with meaning and historical reference.

 

As someone with a key interest in history, theology, politics (things which are a key part of the 40k setting) it is impossible for me not to notice these things.

[Lord_Ikka]

10 minutes ago, Marshal Valkenhayn said:

Tried to write 'I'm sorry' in the above post, and for some reason this new forum hides the edit button from me. The sorry is missing and I can't put it in there.

Edit should be in the upper right of the post, when you hit the three dots. Its also where the Report and Share functions are. 

[Blindhamster]

51 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

It really does though in real world terms as I’ve said before there’s a clear design distinction between the two lines and GW arbitrarily saying Primaris can wear the armour doesn't negate that fact 

 

I actually agree with you, having the “Primaris” x “Firstborn” divide was silly from the start, GW should have just called them the evolution of the model range rather than hammering home in the lore these are a new breed super duper Space Marines that are way bigger, stronger, faster with extra super special organs etc but unfortunately they did. It was clearly a tricky decision on their part and they tried to appease the most amount of people by upsetting the least amount possible… but here we are 5/6 years later and there’s definitely a clear distinction both in the model range design and lore that can’t be waved away by saying Primaris can now wear “x” armour and a Keyword change 

 

So while you can say they’re just Terminators, they’re also still a “FB” kit in the fact they they share no meaningful design ethos of the Primaris range and can used through the entire history of 40K lore from the Siege onwards something that can’t be said for a “Primaris” kit which a only valid for use since the opening of the Rift 

 

 

for me, there’s a few notable links to the primaris designs on the new terminators too, enough that they look good beside the intercessors models at least, and those details were different on previous iterations of them too. 
 

so nope, they’re just terminators as far as I (and GW) are concerned. They’ve been brought inline with modern marine design ideas, per their own article, they didn’t just say modern marine scale either.

 

that said, I think I’m probably done with this topic now (as are you I suspect! :)) appreciate the continued constructive discussion we had though!

[DesuVult]

2 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

I explained why the term "Firstborn" is packed with meaning and historical reference.

 

As someone with a key interest in history, theology, politics (things which are a key part of the 40k setting) it is impossible for me not to notice these things.

I feel the term carries much less weight than you ascribe to it.  The term primaris carries a lot of meaning if we use real world references but most of it is non-sensical or irrelevant.  Primaris comes from primus meaning 1 but there isn't just 1 primaris.  Primaris is the name of an investment company but I don't think primaris marines are noted for their stock portfolio.  It is a violinist title but I have yet to read of a primaris marine in a string quartet.

 

I am seeing people calling the new double gun redemptor the mortis redemptor.  There is no three layers deep advanced reason for why.  It's because the mortis dreadnought was the double gun casterferrum so even if GW doesn't call it that if I say "mortis redemptor" you can probably assume what I am referring to.

[Brother Captain Arkley]

11 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 

 

 

Primaris with a beakie, truly the best of both worlds.

 

 

 

Great minds.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Only speaking for myself, but as a Primaris-only guy, I've never had an issue with any "superiority" conveyed by the use of the "Firstborn" title. As has been stated previously, the "Primaris" term could be taken that way as well.

 

My only real issue with the term is that it isn't one that makes sense in-setting and is now losing its utility in the model range as well.

 

In-setting: Would anyone actually strip Dante or Calgar of the "Firstborn" honorific after they successfully crossed the Rubicon? Doubtful. Thus it becomes a descriptor not of the Marine's physical form but of the history of the person in the armor and is useless as a division between Primaris and "other."

 

Model range: There WAS a clear divide between "Firstborn" and "Primaris" ranges due to the scale differences. Now that Primaris-scale versions of Firstborn designs are being released and we are specifically being told that they can be either... well, again it becomes a useless term. Firstborn Terminators who wouldn't touch the Rubicon with a ten-foot lance and Primaris Terminators who've been on Team Cawl since day one have the exact same stats. You can't look at the model and say it cannot be a Primaris nor that it cannot be a Firstborn, which you COULD do with every Marine model (bar the Black Templars Castellan) up until now.

 

Going forward, use of the term "Firstborn" will just require further explanation. Do you mean "original scale?" Because even before now, your entire Primaris army could be ascended Firstborn and now they apparently don't even need to cross the Rubicon to magically have the same size and stats. And the new Terminator models, while they can officially be non-Primaris, are very obviously NOT "original scale." So calling them "new Firstborn models" Is REALLY a tortured conflation of the lore and the model range(s).

[WrathOfTheLion]

Most of the community cares mainly about model scale and how they look, as simple as that. Were they to make new MK VII dudes in the newer scale, people would buy it just as they would the next MK X squad and are going to buy the new Terminators.

 

So from GWs side, after kind of setting the new story and the new range a bit, blurring them makes a lot of sense to open back up some creative freedom, instead of pigeon holing themselves back into a corner which they escaped from in the first place.

[Orange Knight]

1 hour ago, Lord Nord said:

In-setting: Would anyone actually strip Dante or Calgar of the "Firstborn" honorific after they successfully crossed the Rubicon? Doubtful. Thus it becomes a descriptor not of the Marine's physical form but of the history of the person in the armor and is useless as a division between Primaris and "other."

 

A very interesting point I hadn't fully considered.

 

Azrael, Ragnar, Dante, Calgar, Mephiston, Shrike, Ventris, etc - the most famous and venerable Astartes alive are now Primaris.

 

So a Firstborn is what? A marine with less genetic enhancements and smaller guns?

[Bryan Blaire]

I’ve always felt like the term “Firstborn” did smack some of “try-hard-ness” - like a claim of “It doesn’t matter that you are stronger, faster, tougher - I’m the first born son of the line, so you will never be better than me” of an older brother surpassed in playing a sport or something.  I get that many don’t feel that way, that it’s simply a statement of order of creation for them - the “Firstborn” standard Astartes pattern was literally that - the first Astartes pattern birthed into mass production by the Emperor.  That said, being the first pattern created by the Emperor doesn’t automatically make it superior to a second pattern created from the work of the Emperor, which does display actual inherent “upgrades”.

 

I’ve always felt like the term “Primaris” was a reference to the Primarch genetic material utilized to advance the Marine template closer to that of the actual Primarch - the Magnificat itself is half of the “Primarch” organ that Cawl could reproduce is the original text from back in 8th:

Quote

“Magnificat (The Amplifier): A small, thumbnail-sized lobe that is inserted into the brain’s core. The magnificat secretes hormones that increase the body’s growth functions whilst also intensifying its advanced systems, especially those of the biscopea and the ossmodula. In truth, the magnificat is but half of the true, dual-valve immortis gland (the so called God-Maker) that the Emperor created for his Primarchs. However, Archmagos Cawl could only find materials and genetic blueprints to build the dextrophic lobe (the right half), while plans for the sintarius (the left half) that would complete the original super-organ had been wholly eradicated. Whether this was done by the Emperor’s own hand or by some nefarious source, Cawl could not tell.“

I can also see the argument that the term “Primaris” includes the root of “Prime” and use of it somehow artificially places the 2nd iteration of Marine template above that of the classic Astartes pattern.  We know from GW’s own lore that simply being Primaris doesn’t make that Marine inherently superior to all classic Astartes, there is at least one written example of it where a veteran Astartes schooled a Primaris - but this example is definitely from the view of a veteran vs. a relatively raw Marine, and would clearly also happen in that way between two classic Astartes pattern Marines.

 

Quite frankly, the use of the divide by people is petty over all, and smacks of a “My daddy can beat up your daddy” type elementary school arguments.  It’s better to just ignore the petty folks that like to speak condescendingly of their preferred type and simply keep your head up and move on - those folks will continue to post things condescendingly, but you don’t have to respond to them.

 

Personally, I like the scale of the Primaris models, but not really the basic and plain look of them - hence my mixed Space Wolves force using light conversion work in many cases to get them more in line with my personal view.  Conversely, I detest 95% of the lore around the Primaris Marines and think that GW royal  in how they introduced them in an effort to please as many people as possible, instead of simply organically allowing the scale change to happen.  I don’t like the new squad types they are forced into either.  I’m still in my personal mode of trying to do some heavier conversions to make standard Marine squad types out of Primaris bodies, but I have a ton of projects I do, so we’ll see if that ever really moves forward.

 

In the end, I will be overjoyed if the keyword “Primaris” simply ceases to exist and all Marines are put on the same playing field, and the only distinction you’ve got is how your squads work and what they are armed with. 

Edited April 6, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[phandaal]

On 4/5/2023 at 1:44 AM, b1soul said:

I still believe the introduction of the Primaris concept has a lot of storytelling potential, so was never opposed to the idea of a new generation of moderately improved SM...and some intergenerational learning and friction. Maybe it could've been introduced with less emphasis on Cawl, but the Primaris/Firstborn relationship is worth exploring further, I think.

 

This is subjective preference, but I never saw any value in "Space Marine Space Marines." We already had Custodes and Grey Knights as superior versions of the average Space Marine. The storytelling around Primaris has generally reflected this lack of value by retelling the same existential crisis story over and over and over again, interspersed with gratuitous mentions of Primaris running a little bit faster or breaking things a little bit easier.

 

23 hours ago, apologist said:

I guess it's the curse of being the most visible and popular line, that the Space Marines redesign had to be handled with kid gloves.

 

It was the curse of being GW's main cash cow. They had to sell a new Space Marine army to people who already owned Space Marine armies. Then it turned into some kind of weird tribal thing when people decided original Marines were for your lame old dad and new Marines were for the cool kids.

 

As for why GW decided to tell the story the way they did, that probably has more to do with whatever brain bug or Good Idea Fairy got them to do End Times. Sometimes people just get on a tear with bad ideas.

 

The whole thing has turned out to be pretty stupid overall, so if GW wants to blur the lines and finally put it to bed then more power to them.

[apologist]

1 hour ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

Most of the community cares mainly about model scale and how they look, as simple as that. Were they to make new MK VII dudes in the newer scale, people would buy it just as they would the next MK X squad and are going to buy the new Terminators.

 

So from GWs side, after kind of setting the new story and the new range a bit, blurring them makes a lot of sense to open back up some creative freedom, instead of pigeon holing themselves back into a corner which they escaped from in the first place.

 

Couldn't agree more. It's worth noting that GW themselves don't have a term in their marketing copy for non-Primaris Marines – what we're calling 'firstborn' in this discussion. They're simply 'Space Marines', and I suspect that's an intentional omission/elision to avoid implicitly giving the impression that the older ones aren't as good as Primaris.

 

The in-game lore has also been at pains to – rather tortuously – say that Primaris are bigger and faster and better and closer to the Emperor's ideal... but that the veteran Space Marines are staunchly indefatigable and experienced and equal in every way to the phenomenally powerful but inexperienced Primaris. In other words, having their cake and eating it.

 

+++

+Lore and Commerce+

 

From a lore perspective, I think the conception and introduction of the Primaris was flawed – but not fatally; and I recognise it's purely personal preference. I find the continual one-upmanship of the various types of Space Marines (Grey Knights, Deathwatch, and sort-of-Custodes) tiresome, and prefer the more nuanced 'better at this but worse at this' feel of different Chapters. I am, however, more than willing to hold my hands up and say that your mileage may vary – and while I have some reservations, there's still a lot of stuff that I do like about the Primaris marines.

 

Having said that, from a commercial perspective, I think something like the Primaris was inevitable. For years leading up to the Era Indomitus, we'd had very minor updates and resculpts of all the old models, and the only new stuff – Centurions, for example – felt forced and awkward. Some new design space needed to be carved out.

 

Commercially, I don't think it would have been enough for (say) the new marines to have simply been explained as a new mark of armour. That's great for existing fans like me, but it doesn't grab GW's main target market. The introduction of the Primaris marines showed a lot of marketing nous, by simultaneously selling to the existing fan base (cool new models with better proportions!), and giving a really easy way in for new fans (these are all you need to know about to get started!). 

 

In an alternative world where the Era Indomitus still happened, but we just got Space Marines in Mark IX armour to fight off the new galaxy-wide Chaos/Necron threat, I think GW would have ended up in a slightly awkward backward-looking phase, where they were simply going through the motions with new iterations of existing marine designs. The Primaris Marines were a good sticking plaster to rip off and give a sense of momentum to their production again.

 

+++

+ Age of Sigmar and the Era Indomitus +

 

More broadly, while I love the 40k universe as-was and vastly prefer a setting-driven to story-driven game, it had settled into a curiously comfortable feeling, with the Imperium supposedly at breaking point but practically the only dominant faction. The 'twin Empires' concept (liberally borrowed from the later Roman empire) is a wonderfully rich and evocative pot of potential stories and conflicts, so if they were going to move things on, I'm pleased with what they did.

 

Opening the Eye of Terror to split the Imperium in half is, if nothing else, a good way to better explain how X faction on one side of the galaxy gets to fight Y faction on the other. Critically, it wasn't as extreme as Age of Sigmar – I think GW rather burned their fingers there, and wanted a more nuanced update. 

 

For better or for worse, then, 40k has ended up in a sort of halfway house, as GW have done their best to please existing hobbyists (by not invalidating or talking down their existing armies); bring new hobbyists in; and breathe some creative space into the grim darkness of the far future. If nothing else, it's clear the design team are enjoying themselves. I don't always like every model or concept they make, but I can't deny the quality and imagination that goes into the releases.

 

+++

+ Looking forward +
The downside of this halfway house approach is that we've ended up with an awkward relationship between the older Space Marine sculpts and the newer ones Primaris; a relationship which has been (unfortunately) entrenched in the lore but left unresolved.

 

Certainly there doesn't seem to be much of an in-house distinction between the older and newer designs of Space Marines. Jes Goodwin mentioned in an interview early on after the introduction of the Primaris that the lore came after the models, and they'd basically just been enjoying creating in a space that wasn't so restrictive: the Primaris concept came later. He also mentioned that they'd been left intentionally clean and largely backwards compatible to make for easy kitbashing with older bits.

 

Now that the Primaris sculpts are established, it's my hope that GW start to elide the differences, both in lore – by making less of the distinction, and treating them all simply as 'Space Marines' or 'Astartes' rather than drawing needless line between them – and in terms of the models, by bringing in some of the famous modularity of Power Armour and distinctly adding Mark VII (VI, V etc) elements to new Space Marine kits.

 

+++

[Marshal Reinhard]

15 minutes ago, apologist said:

but that the veteran Space Marines are staunchly indefatigable and experienced and equal in every way to the phenomenally powerful but inexperienced Primaris. In other words, having their cake and eating it.

Makes me wonder what of ascended primaris marines, who are both phenomenally powerful but are also staunchly indefatigable and experienced.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Marshal Reinhard

[SickSix]

Okay skipping over a lot of the last two pages and getting back to my discussion with @WARMASTER_

 

Forget the terminator suits of armor. I will die on the hill that GW is and will stop actively supporting Mk1 Marines in favor of Cawl Marines. Not only are they doing gradually with the models, but the recent Novels have all but put the nail in the coffin. So to continue to argue that Mk1 marines are going to coexist with Cawl marines forever as separate model kits is just silly. 

 

Of Course GW will keep Legends around for a long time, maybe even forever (paper is cheap compared to plastic production). They may even quietly phase out the "Primaris" keyword. But in the future, all (40k) marines will be Cawl marines; sold by GW and written about in the lore. That's just an inevitability. 

 

What I actually foresee (if they're smart) is FW taking up 'The Scouring' as a historical setting after the Heresy is concluded and supporting die hard Mk1 Marine enjoyers after 40k has completely moved on from supporting them. So basically in years we may see FW supporting 30-40k and GW actively moving forward with 41+k. 

 

 

[DesuVult]

The novels seem to have had both kinds of marines.  The last time I saw that claim and went through the New section on Blacklibrary and pointed out that it was a pretty even split.  Looking now at the BL new section I think there are 3 marine books, 2 are a bunch of stories together and the 3rd is Cato's book.  (Not counting HH books of course.)

Edited April 6, 2023 by DesuVult

[WARMASTER_]

The issue is @SickSix by saying “Forget the Terminators” you’re just wilfully ignoring the most definitive piece of evidence that GW won’t stop producing a FB kit for 40k as it’ll be in the range for 15+ years [unless the mould breaks] so until then you’ll have to just “Die on that hill” Because GW will be making and supporting a FB unit for a good long while

 

[Ive gone extensively into what I mean by FB in this thread so I won’t reiterate the point ad nauseam]

[Blindhamster]

But you’re also wilfully ignoring the fact it isn’t a firstborn kit (it isn’t a primaris kit either) it’s a terminator kit that can be used by both, with design influences from both ranges and the scale currently only seen for primaris.

at best, it’s definitive proof that terminators are too important to drop (because of course they are even if I have generally not liked a lot of the models over the years (but do like these)).

 

 

 

 

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

18 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

The issue is @SickSix by saying “Forget the Terminators” you’re just wilfully ignoring the most definitive piece of evidence that GW won’t stop producing a FB kit for 40k as it’ll be in the range for 15+ years [unless the mould breaks] so until then you’ll have to just “Die on that hill” Because GW will be making and supporting a FB unit for a good long while

 

[Ive gone extensively into what I mean by FB in this thread so I won’t reiterate the point ad nauseam]

 

And here's that tortured conflation of lore and model range that I was talking about.

 

Unfortunately, this isn't a Chinese take-out place where you get to choose one from Column A and one from Column B and ignore everything else that disproves your position.

[Orange Knight]

33 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

The issue is @SickSix by saying “Forget the Terminators” you’re just wilfully ignoring the most definitive piece of evidence that GW won’t stop producing a FB kit for 40k as it’ll be in the range for 15+ years [unless the mould breaks] so until then you’ll have to just “Die on that hill” Because GW will be making and supporting a FB unit for a good long while

 

[Ive gone extensively into what I mean by FB in this thread so I won’t reiterate the point ad nauseam]

 

But Primaris can use the Terminator armour now, and the models are made to scale with them.

 

To me It's definitive evidence that the classis Marines are being phased out. 

 

Outside of a subjective disdain for the Primaris, or a desire to play a narrative game in the past, what reason is there for them not to be Primaris? @Lord Nord kind of made me have a revelation today with his observation that the "Firstborn" are now the Primaris anyway lol.

 

Edit: made the post more clear

Edited April 6, 2023 by Orange Knight

[WARMASTER_]

15 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

But you’re also wilfully ignoring the fact it isn’t a firstborn kit (it isn’t a primaris kit either) it’s a terminator kit that can be used by both, with design influences from both ranges and the scale currently only seen for primaris.

at best, it’s definitive proof that terminators are too important to drop (because of course they are even if I have generally not liked a lot of the models over the years (but do like these)).

 

 

 

 

I think it’s clear we’ve both just reached very different conclusions on was constitutes a “FB” kit or doesn’t in your case… as we’ve also been back and forth a lot over the issue I agree with your last post that I’m happy to leave it there as we’re definitely at an impasse, your also arguing a very different point to @SickSix 

 

29 minutes ago, Lord Nord said:

 

And here's that tortured conflation of lore and model range that I was talking about.

 

What conflation would that be exactly?

[Blindhamster]

My point at least is inline with the thread title and the majority of evidence seen. But yeah sorry, couldn’t help but step back in…

[Brother Captain Arkley]

If I get a rescaled Tactical, Assault and Devastator  I would be very happy.

[WARMASTER_]

22 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

But Primaris can use the Terminator armour now, and the models are made to scale with them.

 

To me It's definitive evidence that the classis Marines are being phased out. 

 

Outside of a subjective disdain for the Primaris, or a desire to play a narrative game in the past, what reason is there for them not to be Primaris? @Lord Nord kind of made me have a revelation today with his observation that the "Firstborn" are now the Primaris anyway lol.

 

Edit: made the post more clear

Where as scale has no relevance to the debate, Yes in lore the Primaris can now wear Indomitus armour absolutely I’m not arguing that point even though as you’ll know if you read or engaged with my other reply’s to yourself 

 

As I’ve said many times now my distinction isn’t based on the new [Contrived] lore that Primaris can now wear Indomitus armour nor is it that they’re scaled to be similar proportionally to Primaris as it’s really not relevant to the discussion 

 

My distinction has been from the start that this kit is a faithful remake of classic Firstborn Indomitus terminators without “Primaris” design elements 

 

I can use these Terminators in the Heresy [Without the Crux] or at any point after that in 40k’s 10k history which is something that can’t be said for a Primaris Kit and can only be said for a FB kit 

 

At this point we seem to be arguing over semantics so I’ll leave this discussion here :) I’ve said my peace 

[WARMASTER_]

20 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

My point at least is inline with the thread title and the majority of evidence seen. But yeah sorry, couldn’t help but step back in…

I’m not saying it’s not and I feel we had a constructive discussion that unfortunately [let’s face it probably inevitably] ended at an impasse 

 

We’ve all been there man lol