Changeling Changeling is VERY OP in Lore and easily can win EVERYTHING for Chaos!

[Moonreaper666]

The Changeling is quite frankly one of the most OP being in Warhammer. In fact, it is so overpowered it can easily win the Warhammer setting during the War in Heaven

 

If the Chaos Gods wanted to give Horus a cakewalk victory then all the Changeling had to do is kill and impersonate Zagreus Kane PRIOR to the Schism of Mars!!!

 

-'Kane' then personally goes to Koriel Zeth to kill her and take over her city. Same thing with Maximal. Kelbor-Hal gets the Akashic Reader so now he can MASS-PRODUCE twisted versions of the most powerful DAOT Warmachines immediately!!!

 

-Schism of Mars is a one-sided slaughter as the vast majority of workers and soldiers on Mars are now part of the Dark Mechanicum

 

-More Forgeworlds join Kelbor's traitors. The remaining Loyalist Forgeworlds now fight each other to appoint a new leader!

 

-Legio Tempestus, Knight House Taranis and many other Loyalist Titans/Knights are not as loyal as they are in Canon. The Dark Mechanicum now has many more Titans and Knights

 

-Sigismund and Fafnir Rahn die on Mars, even if they had brought several times as many troops as they did in Canon (This means Khârn doesn't die and he gets to kill Thane and the IF Libraruans in First Wall then kill Amit and Zephon in Warhawk THEN kill Raldoron and Amon Tauromachian in Echoes AND THEN kill Azkaerllon, Ollianius Pius, Khalid and a few Custodes in The End and The Death Vol 1 before finally dying!!!)

 

-Ashen Claws are 'convinced' by 'Corax' to attack the White Scars in the Chondax system, killing 10k of Khan's sons in the process. They then attack the Wolves alongside the Alpha Legion. Ashen Claws are wiped out but they kill 20k of Russ's sons at Alaxxes Nebula.

 

-'Sangiunius' orders the Blood Angels on Baal to attack the Shattered Legions, killing Shadrak Meduson and a few thousand SL Marines. Unable to tell truth from lie after the Changeling is exposed, hundreds of Blood Angels become Chaos-worshipping Blackshields. Corax is forced to take them out, losing a few hundred of his Marines in the process

 

-Changeling then kills and impersonates countless Astarte and Imperial Army leaders so they and the soldiers under their command defect to Horus, at the worst moments for the Imperium

 

-Archamus and Camba Diaz both die in Solar War along with 99.9% of the Loyalist ships, including the Phalanx. Corswain doesn't stand a chance (but he never makes it to Terra in the first place)

 

-Horus reaches Terra much earlier in the war and with SEVERAL TIMES MORE forces in his Armada!!!

 

Other ways Changeling can really do some damage:

 

-Impersonate a missing Loyalist Primarch to deceive countless Imperials into worshipping Hurne (Chaos) and brutally rip apart the Imperium through civil war!

 

-Impersonate Macharius after the real one dies. The Macharian Heresy causes much more damage to the Imperium, especially to Space Marines and Knights. Sabbat Worlds Crusade doesn't happen. Traitors occupy most of Segmentum Pacificus before the 13th Black Crusade

Edited April 11, 2023 by Moonreaper666

[Kastor Krieg]

9 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

In fact, it is so overpowered it can easily win the 

It's so OP that we cannot even know what he could easily win. He successfully impersonated and killed the rest of this sentence!

[MegaVolt87]

This comes apart for one simple reason- the chaos gods often snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Especially Tzeench, they make schemes and plans that thwart even their successful ones. The great game always continues, no one really "won" the HH, considering the after effects of it moving into 40k era. 

[Grotsmasha]

"Just because you can, does not mean you should".

 

I'm not saying if all of those were to happen, the future you want for 40k, with Chaos being the all powerful, unassailable, dominant faction, wouldn't happen. I'm saying if GW did it, they would destroy the "teetering on a knife edge" setting they have so carefully curated over the last 40yrs.

The fan base would revolt, GW would retcon even faster than they did with the world-wide Black Crusade campaign that went Chaos' way.

They retconned/ignored that result so quick and locked us at "1 minute to midnight* for decades, and didn't bring it up again until Gathering Storm

Edited April 12, 2023 by Grotsmasha

[Xenith]

As we've seen, if any god becomes pre-eminent, then the others gang up to take them down, as we've seen with the magic staff of Tzeentch. If it looked like Tzeentch was about to single handedly win the heresy by themselves, the other gods would do everything they could to thwart these plans. 

[The Neverborn]

On 4/10/2023 at 6:55 AM, Moonreaper666 said:

The Changeling is quite frankly one of the most OP being in Warhammer. In fact, it is so overpowered it can easily win the Warhammer setting during the War in Heaven

 

The history around here is a little murkey. But wouldn't the war in Heaven be before the Chaos gods fully awakened in their current 40k from. And very much before they interacted with the material world?

 

[Lord_Ikka]

1 hour ago, The Neverborn said:

The history around here is a little murkey. But wouldn't the war in Heaven be before the Chaos gods fully awakened in their current 40k from. And very much before they interacted with the material world?

The War in Heaven is between the Old Ones and the Necrontyr/C'tan- we know the Old Ones used the Warp and possibly created the Webway, showing that they knew of the Gods and the threat they represented. Whether the three Gods of the time were very active, or that their daemons interacted much with the material world is unknown, as is much of the history of that time. Most of what we "know" of the War in Heaven is couched in mythical stories/highly interpretive legends from the Aeldari, who have never been known for saying anything plainly. The Necrons have been keeping pretty silent , those that even have the memories of those ancient days uncorrupted. Most likely we will never get a really good accounting of the War, simply because most of those that still remember it aren't going to tell humanity and those stories that humanity does know aren't the best translated. 

[Moonreaper666]

1 hour ago, Lord_Ikka said:

The War in Heaven is between the Old Ones and the Necrontyr/C'tan- we know the Old Ones used the Warp and possibly created the Webway, showing that they knew of the Gods and the threat they represented. Whether the three Gods of the time were very active, or that their daemons interacted much with the material world is unknown, as is much of the history of that time. Most of what we "know" of the War in Heaven is couched in mythical stories/highly interpretive legends from the Aeldari, who have never been known for saying anything plainly. The Necrons have been keeping pretty silent , those that even have the memories of those ancient days uncorrupted. Most likely we will never get a really good accounting of the War, simply because most of those that still remember it aren't going to tell humanity and those stories that humanity does know aren't the best translated. 

 

Ynnari Wildheart does retcon the War in Heaven to have Chaos be heavily involved

[Urauloth]

Speaking of history: There was a significant inconsistency regarding chaos god/mortal interactions in the lore for a while, because Be'Lakor was clearly stated to be the first daemon prince, and he was raised up by all four gods (meaning his apotheosis has to have occurred after the fall of the Eldar) but Doombreed is also a daemon prince and is said to have been raised up from Old Earth tens of thousands of years before that when there were only three gods. I'm not sure if this has been addressed in the most recent daemon codex, though? Either Be'Lakor is a baby compared to Doombreed or one of the Ruinous Powers must have missed out on his coronation.

[Lord_Ikka]

12 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

Ynnari Wildheart does retcon the War in Heaven to have Chaos be heavily involved

No one said that Chaos wasn't involved in the War in Heaven. Their involvement was not the main focus of the War though, it was between the Old Ones and their proxies (Aeldari/Krork/others) and the Necrontyr/C'tan. Also, the tales that the Aeldari tell in the Rise of Ynnari- Wild Rider novel state that the Aeldari were the ones that won the War after the Necrontyr became the Necrons, which is directed countered by all Necron lore that the Necrons won the War, then fought the C'tan and the Silent King commanded the Necrons to sleep. So the lore/tales are convoluted, to say the least. But we know that while Chaos may be involved in the War in Heaven, it wasn't as the main focus or a main combatant. 

 

7 hours ago, Urauloth said:

Speaking of history: There was a significant inconsistency regarding chaos god/mortal interactions in the lore for a while, because Be'Lakor was clearly stated to be the first daemon prince, and he was raised up by all four gods (meaning his apotheosis has to have occurred after the fall of the Eldar) but Doombreed is also a daemon prince and is said to have been raised up from Old Earth tens of thousands of years before that when there were only three gods. I'm not sure if this has been addressed in the most recent daemon codex, though? Either Be'Lakor is a baby compared to Doombreed or one of the Ruinous Powers must have missed out on his coronation.

Doombreed is a Khorne Daemon Prince and one of Khorne's first known servants (raised up from a mortal around M1 or M2). Whether this means known as in named or known as in seen physically isn't clear. Be'Lakor is the first Daemon Prince of Chaos, the first mortal raised, so he was raised before Doombreed- there is no indication of which God (of the three at the time) raised him, or whether it was an effort by all three; most of Be'Lakor's history is murky and unclear. He was clearly raised before Slaanesh was birthed, beyond that we don't know.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Lord_Ikka

[Moonreaper666]

7 hours ago, Urauloth said:

Speaking of history: There was a significant inconsistency regarding chaos god/mortal interactions in the lore for a while, because Be'Lakor was clearly stated to be the first daemon prince, and he was raised up by all four gods (meaning his apotheosis has to have occurred after the fall of the Eldar) but Doombreed is also a daemon prince and is said to have been raised up from Old Earth tens of thousands of years before that when there were only three gods. I'm not sure if this has been addressed in the most recent daemon codex, though? Either Be'Lakor is a baby compared to Doombreed or one of the Ruinous Powers must have missed out on his coronation.

 

That depends on whether Slaanesh was 'born' or 'awoken' during the Fall. Or Slaanesh somehow exist prior to the War in Heaven or time really doesn't matter

 

I hope Be'lakor was an old, dying Necrontyr who sold out his kind right before the War in Heaven. That explains how he became the First Daemon Prince and First Undivided DP and have his Lore line up with Fantasy

 

The Changeling can perfectly disguise and impersonate almost anyone. Necron Overlords and Eldar Exarchs suddenly find their troops fight their kin following 'their' commands

 

The Changeling is also a very powerful Sorcerer and knows the personal secrets of most people (the Dark Angels found this out the hard way)

 

The Changeling can impersonate the Silent King then reawaken and corrupt the Necrons!!!

 

The Changeling can impersonate Amar Astarte!

[Lord_Ikka]

6 minutes ago, Moonreaper666 said:

That depends on whether Slaanesh was 'born' or 'awoken' during the Fall. Or Slaanesh somehow exist prior to the War in Heaven or time really doesn't matter

It's pretty clear in the lore that Slaanesh was born by the Fall of the Aeldari. When it is outright stated that Slaanesh was created by the Fall in GW codices/main rulebooks, we have to take that as a fact (as much as 40k has facts). 

 

The Changeling can indeed take the form of many, if not all, characters in the setting, but why would it? The Changeling does what it does for jokes and mayhem- it doesn't have plans or paths to follow, those are set by Tzeentch itself. 

[Moonreaper666]

11 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

It's pretty clear in the lore that Slaanesh was born by the Fall of the Aeldari. When it is outright stated that Slaanesh was created by the Fall in GW codices/main rulebooks, we have to take that as a fact (as much as 40k has facts). 

 

The Changeling can indeed take the form of many, if not all, characters in the setting, but why would it? The Changeling does what it does for jokes and mayhem- it doesn't have plans or paths to follow, those are set by Tzeentch itself. 

 

Fantasy proves the Chaos Gods want to win 40k

 

Tzeentch and the other Chaos Gods do want Horus and later Abaddon to succeed in destroying the Imperium

 

Had Changeling killed and impersonated Zagreus Kane right before the Schism, Horus would have easily won the Heresy

 

Spoiler

Unless the Chaos Gods are testing them to see if they can become the Dark King, the 5th Chaos God

 

[Grotsmasha]

It was my understanding (I faintly recall reading it in an official publication many, MANY years ago, and no, there's not way I'd be able to dig up a citation), that due to the timey-wimey nature of the Warp, once Slaanesh was born, it was as if they always had existed.

[Lord_Ikka]

6 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

Fantasy proves the Chaos Gods want to win 40k

Old lore that had Fantasy and 40k settings as possibly connected is no longer canon after 40k 5th ed (regardless of feelings about Ward's tenure, the lore did get cleared up slightly). There may be characters/ideas that are in/transcend both games, but you can't take what is done in one setting and apply it to the other with any sort of authority.

 

No one has said that Chaos doesn't want to "win", but saying that the Changeling is some sort of super-daemon that can basically do whatever it wants is also incorrecet in lore. It is a major daemon, but has it's own constraints and one of those is that it is a destruction-inducing prankster, not a master planner seeking to manipulate everything.

[The Neverborn]

Something I've noted several times, when you are reading 40k lore, you need to bear in mind the "Grimdark" tone. While the threats seem overwhelming the status quo need to remain. So the none one is going to be "winning 40k".

 

I would assert there to be logical limitations to what the changeling can impersonate, despite the language used in it's description. Other than tzeentch, I'd expect it would have a hard time impersonating, or even coming into contact with psychic nulls, when in large number tyranids are present they create shadow in the warp which can cause deamons to flicker in and out of reality, dampen psychic powers etc., C'tan also spring to mind there's probably a few more. In the rules i believe it was restricted to "infantry".

 

Lastly it is still a deamon, so that comes with all the limitations of being a daemon.

 

In regards to the the other point raised about the Slaanesh Be'lakor the plot hole filler to me is "the warp did it" logic doesn't really apply there. Meaning something could "exist" before it's "created". The true mind boggling power an something so omnipotent it's not bound by paradoxes or logic.  

[Moonreaper666]

On 4/14/2023 at 3:54 PM, The Neverborn said:

Something I've noted several times, when you are reading 40k lore, you need to bear in mind the "Grimdark" tone. While the threats seem overwhelming the status quo need to remain. So the none one is going to be "winning 40k".

 

I would assert there to be logical limitations to what the changeling can impersonate, despite the language used in it's description. Other than tzeentch, I'd expect it would have a hard time impersonating, or even coming into contact with psychic nulls, when in large number tyranids are present they create shadow in the warp which can cause deamons to flicker in and out of reality, dampen psychic powers etc., C'tan also spring to mind there's probably a few more. In the rules i believe it was restricted to "infantry".

 

Lastly it is still a deamon, so that comes with all the limitations of being a daemon.

 

In regards to the the other point raised about the Slaanesh Be'lakor the plot hole filler to me is "the warp did it" logic doesn't really apply there. Meaning something could "exist" before it's "created". The true mind boggling power an something so omnipotent it's not bound by paradoxes or logic.  

 

Changeling imitated Macharius and a Dark Angel perfectly. The latter in front of Grey Knights

 

Ka'Bandha curbstomped Leviathan. And he's a weakling compared to Skarbrand, An'ngrath, Doombreed or Angron

[The Neverborn]

Macharius, is a "infantry", being human, not a physic null, defiantly not a C'tan. You do see well versed on Changeling  narrative. I'd be interested if you can find any lore about it impersonating anything completely "non-infantry" sized. Bonus points if you get anything warlord titan sized or larger or a C'tan.

 

I wasn't aware about any invasion defining battles between Ka'Bandha and Leviathan. Where would one find this material?

Edited April 18, 2023 by The Neverborn

[Moonreaper666]

2 hours ago, The Neverborn said:

Macharius, is a "infantry", being human, not a physic null, defiantly not a C'tan. You do see well versed on Changeling  narrative. I'd be interested if you can find any lore about it impersonating anything completely "non-infantry" sized. Bonus points if you get anything warlord titan sized or larger or a C'tan.

 

I wasn't aware about any invasion defining battles between Ka'Bandha and Leviathan. Where would one find this material?

 

Ka'Bandha fought Tyranids at Baal during the Sons of Sanginius's Last Stand

 

The Changeling once impersonated a Greater Daemon. He has inflitrated the Realms of Khorne, Nurgle and Slaanesh

 

The Changeling does know all the secrets of the Dark Angels and other individuals

 

The Changeling doesn't need to disguise as a C'tan or Titan. He just needs to kill and impersonate enemy leaders so he can corrupt their armies to Chaos