BA and Tenth Edition - Facts Discussion

[Jolemai]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/06/09/download-free-space-marines-index-cards-and-defend-the-imperium-from-annihilation/

 

Good idea about the Marines basics here. Inferno pistol nerf though...

[Loishy]

I don't know what to think about it. 

I like : 
- The overall rework of all the weapon profilse.

- No 3+ invu 

- intercessor with only one type of gun 

- The Tactical squad that will only be by 10. I know it's more restrictive but I can't wait to find a new way to play them. 

- Reiver squad has some interesting new rules with precision rule on weapons and Battle-shock test in fight phase.

- Outrider squad with 2-5 outriders ! 

I don't like : 
- Primaris and no primaris caracter have the same stats, they could be one profile 

- Why the Techmarine primaris is the only primaris caracter with +1W, why ? 

- they dare not merge some primaris and non primaris profil like the sternguard. The assault squad and assault intercessor have almost the same profil, I don't really see why keeping both. 

- no firthborn apothecary, only in the command squad 

- Wargeer of the vanguard veterans. They only have Heirlooms weapon, why do we not have the choice between power weapon and chainsword as almost any other unit ? 
- no logic in the abilities. assault squad with jump pack don't have the same rules than the foot squad BUT the two vanguard veterans squad have the same rules. 
- The relic terminator couldn't take Combi-bolter+lightning claw anymore. It's a shame, it was one of their specificity 

 

 

 

[Pathstrider]

Interesting that Shrike can only join non primaries jump marines. I’m guessing that Dante will be the same + sanguinary guard.

 

Also would be a bit annoying if Mephiston can’t join bladeguards (don’t think primaries librarians or Tigiurus can).

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

RAS w/ JP seems like a no brainer for auto take now. Anyone else think so?

[Arkangilos]

1 hour ago, Loishy said:

- Why the Techmarine primaris is the only primaris caracter with +1W, why ? 

He’s got bionics, most likely.

 

1 hour ago, Loishy said:

- they dare not merge some primaris and non primaris profil like the sternguard. The assault squad and assault intercessor have almost the same profil, I don't really see why keeping both. 

Weapon options.

 

1 hour ago, Loishy said:

- no firthborn apothecary, only in the command squad 

Traditionally the Codex Marines only got apothecaries in command squads. It used to be a BA thing that they were special characters. As for Primaris, the Primaris don’t have command squads so they don’t have that option.

 

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

44 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

He’s got bionics, most likely.

 

Weapon options.

 

Traditionally the Codex Marines only got apothecaries in command squads. It used to be a BA thing that they were special characters. As for Primaris, the Primaris don’t have command squads so they don’t have that option.

 

 

I mean they could have made a primaris command squad.

all of the components already existed.

champion? Check

standard bearer? Check

apothecary? Check.

just add to two veteran intercessors and boom command squad.

[Arkangilos]

25 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I mean they could have made a primaris command squad.

all of the components already existed.

champion? Check

standard bearer? Check

apothecary? Check.

just add to two veteran intercessors and boom command squad.

No argument from me there!

[Paladin777]

I'm glad to see that many of my fears were allayed by this, though I'm really hoping that the BA index has librarians and lieutenants with Jump packs. 
 

relic terminators not having single lightning claws again sucks, but I am happy that they actually got a data sheet.

 

the RAC actually looks decent too! It's better than the regular assault cannon against anything with better than 5+ armor, and it's only a negligible amount behind it against that. 
 

Now consider that even gaunts have 5+ armor now...

Edited June 10, 2023 by Paladin777

[Loishy]

9 hours ago, Pathstrider said:

Interesting that Shrike can only join non primaries jump marines. I’m guessing that Dante will be the same + sanguinary guard.

 

If Shrike can join non primaries marines, I really don't understand why they didn't only one profils for all the characters with primaris and firstborn datasheet. 

 

8 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

He’s got bionics, most likely.

 

 

But firstborn Techmarine too, right ? 

 

8 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

Weapon options.

 

Yea ok, but without those options we have nearly identical squads. Juste the special rules change and heavy bolt pistol. They might make the heavy bolt pistol a squad weapon option that wouldn't allow you to take other options. Or juste say it's a different model of bolt pistol, and encourage converting your assault intercessor for the other options. 
Rather keep two nearly identical squads in a codex with too many datasheet. 

 

8 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

Traditionally the Codex Marines only got apothecaries in command squads. It used to be a BA thing that they were special characters. As for Primaris, the Primaris don’t have command squads so they don’t have that option.

 

 I remember marines could take apothecary alone and it was novice in the command squad at 4th or 5th or earlier. Then it was only in command squad and with the 8th we could again take them separately. I'm wrong ? 

 

7 hours ago, Paladin777 said:

I'm glad to see that many of my fears were allayed by this, though I'm really hoping that the BA index has librarians and lieutenants with Jump packs. 

 

The Librarian with Jump pack is on the index, but not with the other charaters. Pages 59 and 60 in the pdf.

[Arkangilos]

Just to clarify, I'm just offering why I think they made those calls or offering a potential justification, not agreeing with them.

 

46 minutes ago, Loishy said:

 I remember marines could take apothecary alone and it was novice in the command squad at 4th or 5th or earlier. Then it was only in command squad and with the 8th we could again take them separately. I'm wrong ?

I don't have the previous editions in front of me, so I could be wrong, but I remember Apothecaries being command squad only in standard codex in 3rd and 4th edition. For the BA the Sanguinary Priests were IC, and I thought (I could be wrong) that they were unique in that regard. Maybe the SW version back then as well. Take this all with a grain of salt, but I thought it wasn't until like 7th or 8th that standard Codex apothecaries became IC. Again though, I'm working off memory right now. I've only ever personally owned the BA stuff from 2nd to 7th, and didn't get the standard Codex until 9th. My dad has all the standard marine stuff from 1st to 8th. 

 

56 minutes ago, Loishy said:

 

But firstborn Techmarine too, right ? 

Good point, I missed that! Well, he has older, outdated bionics :p

 

 

[Blindhamster]

I think our detachment strats and relics will need to be exceptional to not just be taking gladius, honestly the enhancements in gladius are just really good and synergise so well with it - honour the chapter would be able to give us our old +1 to wound back on a key unit, the ability to advance and charge with lots of units from assault doctrine, even advancing and shooting with devastator plays nicely into the BA rapid movement approach.

 

That said, I suspect our benefits will be far less synergistic and less good. +1A and +1S on charges and not when being charged means we have to play very very aggressively to get any benefit at all from our tactic, and it has basically no use on large parts of our army (all vehicles, bar dreads, shooty units with no real melee potential - because we're never going to be the ones charging with those types of units).

 

Whats other peoples feelings so far?

How many of you will use the sons of sanguinius detachment regardless of its actually good or not?

Anyone have some good ideas for it based on what we know of the core marine units at least?

[Pathstrider]

I pretty much agree - there are too many other ways of getting the same thing as our detachment (or old red thirst!) on the units that really need it.

 

I think it's a results of (1) space marines have so many units and GW wanting to give them all different stuff means almost all abilities are covered somewhere and (2) the detachment being where they have chosen to fit divergent chapter rules in

[Karhedron]

I think RT will only be worth taking if you are building a heavily melee-centric list. If you have lots Jump units and a smattering of LTs on your footsloggers for fall back and charge again. 

[Blindhamster]

good point on Lieutenants - a key unit for us going forward I guess?

we'll basically always want to try and get the thirst bonus, so if we get charged, we want to fallback so we can charge in our turn essentially

Edited June 10, 2023 by Blindhamster

[Paladin777]

Honestly Jump Librarians look exceptionally tasty if running Vanguard Vets. Getting ap-2 vs -1 is a big deal.

 

5 attacks per model at S6 (7 on Librarian) with lethal hits and AP-2 seems like a pretty decent amount of choppa for 10th.

 

The storm shields make them decently durable against weapons usually used for clearing marines, even if it doesn't confer a 2+ save anymore. 

 

the loss of granularity kinda sucks, but honestly I'm not too bothered.

 

This all being said, Gladius has a lot of synergy with BA play style for one turn per game, and/or requiring CP, which is a much more limited resource. I'm withholding my judgment about the BA detachment until it actually comes out!

Edited June 10, 2023 by Paladin777

[Karhedron]

The other unit that looks really tasty for Marines in general are BGVs with a Judiciar. First Strike is a big deal in 10th and  looks quite rare. A unit with First Strike that HIs into a charging enemy will Strike before the chargers unit.

 

RAW, HI also triggers Red Thirst since the wording for HI states that the unit counts as charging but doesn't receive the normal Strike First bonus. This implies that other charge bonuses still apply. 

[Arkangilos]

7 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

How many of you will use the sons of sanguinius detachment regardless of its actually good or not?

Anyone have some good ideas for it based on what we know of the core marine units at least?

I’m a role player so I would use Sons of Sanguinius whether it’s worse or better.

[Pathstrider]

3 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

I’m a role player so I would use Sons of Sanguinius whether it’s worse or better.

I'm in between - I'll play the thing that best simulates how I think Blood Angels should play (with is subjective to me, admittedly).

 

What I'm holding out for eventually is if they are doing a full scale codex they have the opportunity to wholesale change things - e.g. there is no reason a Blood Angel Captains needs to get the same rules as generic marines. 

 

At that point there's a opportunity to create a cohesive army with a more solid theme - I hope they take it, I've not felt that way since 5th ed.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Pathstrider

[Paladin777]

@PathstriderAre you thinking similar to how the god-specific chaos legions like Death Guard and Thousand Sons are very different in their makeup?

[Pathstrider]

@Paladin777 Maybe not that far, as I doubt they’d make enough kits (and I think fluff wise they missed the boat there in 8th by re-establishing contact with Imperium Nihilus so soon).

 

But basically yes. DG and TS, by not sharing most units with CSM,can have everything balanced to work towards a cohesive theme - although it doesn’t always work depending on rules quality, they play differently to CSM.

 

I don’t think many units will change (especially as they’d need to incorporate future primaries releases) but given there’s a wide divergence in SM character abilities already, you could easily have more.

 

And it doesn’t take a lot - arguably in 5th it took only two things made Blood Angels play completely differently to SM, sanguinary priests and assault squad troops.

 

edit: and descent of angels! How could I forget!

Edited June 10, 2023 by Pathstrider

[Paladin777]

They were also kinda broken in 5th, if I remember correctly. 

 

Deep striking land raiders and all that. 
 

however, with the detachment and FOC's all being a thing of the past, there's nothing stopping you from running an entire list of jump pack infantry.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Paladin777

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Our detachment rule only kicks in when we charge, but at least it puts our powerfists into S9 reliably wounding most transports and what not, plus on RAS the PF is BS3+, and that’s after all of the MWs, they might be a deceptively good anti-vehicle/monster unit. A bit of a glass hammer, but I think they’ll end up the back bone of BA detachments during the index time frame.

 

combined with a jump chappy they’re actually going to be fairly killy, MWs for days, sgt wounding T10 on 4+ T5 on 2+

Edited June 12, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Paladin777]

Honestly, it makes Lightning claws even more dangerous than fists against T10/11. 
 

fun fact: with the red thirst a charging captain with a power fist will inflict 2.22 w against a T10/11 vehicle with a 3+ save, whereas a captain with a pair of lightning claws will inflict 2.47! The less 'base attacks' a model has, the further ahead the claws get too! 
 

lightning claw terminators are gonna be pretty ubiquitous! 

 

Now that I'm thinking about it, I might just rework my Relic Terminators that are equipped with LC/CB to have pair LC's instead of calling the LC a fancy PF... I wait until I see points coats first though!

Edited June 12, 2023 by Paladin777

[Blindhamster]

Today is the day brothers

[Karhedron]

3 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

Today is the day brothers

 

For the Emperor, Sanguinius and a fresh pot of meganta ink wash!