What does everyone think of 10th so far?

[Karhedron]

32 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

I'd say we're seeing combi weapons definitely being this depressing profile. I mean, if they had to make it a combined profile, why not a more effective one? I just think it's trash and also fairly generic, especially as plasma, Flamers and meltas still exist.

 

My guess is that this is because the combi-weapon is now going to be a side-grade to the Stormbolter so the model will just have 1 price. The Relic Shield is also a bit weak-sauce, just providing +1W (although that will help against both 2D and 3D attacks). My guess is you can choose any one of the 3 options without it affecting the points cost of the model.

 

I would also apply the same logic to the melee weapons. There is no clear winner among them with the TH being nerfed, the CF now being specialised for AT work etc. My guess is that units with a lot of options will have those options tuned to be roughly equal in value.

[Captain Idaho]

I do agree GW are looking to make as many options sidegrades as possible. Makes sense from a balance perspective, as otherwise the best option does always get taken.

 

Still, healthy points costs do help with that too. I think the expensive Thunder Hammer on independent characters thing worked well - 30pts for a weapon was massive but folk still took it.

 

Nevermind eh.

[Blindhamster]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

I'd say we're seeing combi weapons definitely being this depressing profile. I mean, if they had to make it a combined profile, why not a more effective one? I just think it's trash and also fairly generic, especially as plasma, Flamers and meltas still exist.

 

I actually suspect the Codex will reintroduce them as more established weapons since there's been a negative reaction. Hopefully anyway.

 

****

 

Thunder Hammers... I think they just don't look so hot. Relying on 6s for Devasating wounds means every round you'd be lucky to get it through once, what with hitting on a 3 and only 5 attacks.

 

Comparatively, the Chain Fist would help more against vehicles (including Dreads) and provide the same results otherwise most of the time.

 

Power Fists look good. Hitting on a 2+ at S8 is effective. If you want to fight things T5, T6 and T7 this is the weapon for you. That includes Terminators. 

 

The Relic Blade is pretty good. An extra attack, still decent Strength vs infantry and D2, though might struggle against enemy Elites.

 

Twin Lightning Claws... pretty good. Functionally 2 attacks extra and twin linked makes them actually good blenders against infantry.

 

Combi weapons don't seem "bad" per-se. They're 1 shot, 2 shots at half range, wounding infantry on at least 4s (so toughness 5+ infantry get wounded more easily), 6s to wound cause mortal wounds. Hitting on 4s with just 1 shot, 2 at most is kinda bad though. I do think you're right that this will be a temporary thing as the feedback on them has generally been consistently negative.

 

Thunder hammers look fine, they're going to be free and are clearly a side-grade for a fist, 1 less to hit, for the chance to cause 2 mortal wounds. They're clearly not aimed at hitting vehicles anymore, but something I've noticed is that infantry in general are just not good at fighting vehicles now, even a lascannon is only strength 9, the melta rifles are also only strength 9.

 

chain fists are (probably) a rare infantry based anti vehicle weapon, and it's cool that thats a thing.

 

power fists look good

 

relic blades look good (imo, if BA get a bonus to wound or a bonus to strength, I'd go with the blade over the fist, for the extra attack).

 

twin claws look goood for blenders, as you say!

 

 

[BluejayJunior]

50 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

 

Combi weapons don't seem "bad" per-se. They're 1 shot, 2 shots at half range, wounding infantry on at least 4s (so toughness 5+ infantry get wounded more easily), 6s to wound cause mortal wounds. Hitting on 4s with just 1 shot, 2 at most is kinda bad though. I do think you're right that this will be a temporary thing as the feedback on them has generally been consistently negative.

It's actually MWs on a 4+ vs Infantry. Devastating Wounds triggers on a Critical Wound. Anti-Infantry 4+ turns wound rolls of 4+ into Critical Wounds. 

I actually like the weapon profile (other than hitting on 4s). I'm a little sad combi-weapons are combined, but the profile isn't bad. 

 

I don't see the angst about Thunder Hammers. The decrease in damage hurts a little, but isn't the end of the world. And you're not supposed to look at Devastating Wounds as the thing that Thunder Hammers do. They are a bonus to the weapon, not it's job. Thunder Hammers are not MW generators that only work on 6+. They're a solid weapon that, as a bonus, will occasionally do automatic damage in the form of Mortal Wounds. 

[Captain Idaho]

If the job of a Thunder Hammer is to provide raw damage, S8 and 2 Damage, then its job is outperformed by power fists, which hit much superior. That's the problem with them - they aren't reliably going to cause the bonus ability to kick in and hit worse than alternatives. Or in the case of Chainfists, just aren't going to cause near as much damage against vehicles including Dreadnoughts and Knights.

 

I'm alright with big anti-tank guns needing to be used by armies to take down vehicles, but we can already see GW have made a mistake with some weapons and the game isn't even out yet. With the stats and weapons we have already, it's fairly good indicator when something just isn't so useful.

[Blindhamster]

56 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

If the job of a Thunder Hammer is to provide raw damage, S8 and 2 Damage, then its job is outperformed by power fists, which hit much superior. That's the problem with them - they aren't reliably going to cause the bonus ability to kick in and hit worse than alternatives. Or in the case of Chainfists, just aren't going to cause near as much damage against vehicles including Dreadnoughts and Knights.

 

I'm alright with big anti-tank guns needing to be used by armies to take down vehicles, but we can already see GW have made a mistake with some weapons and the game isn't even out yet. With the stats and weapons we have already, it's fairly good indicator when something just isn't so useful.

Think you need to look at the math auspex tactics has done, the thunder hammer looks absolutely fine based on that.

[Captain Idaho]

Even if I accept that it's possible to even do 2.4 damage on something, using Auspex Tactics own data it is clear the Thunder Hammer is out performed by power fists by a decent margin against the majority of targets and only marginly does any better against Terminators than the power fist.

[ZeroWolf]

Regarding the combi weapons and the codex. While I hypothesised myself that these stats were just for the index, if their different in the codex it isn't because of the reaction as its quite likely that the Space Marine Codex is either already at the printers, or is sitting in boxes patiently waiting. 

[Kilamandaros]

Will be a tough sell to ever use TH termies over regular now, might shoot themselves in the foot when it comes to remaking the assault termie box...

[Blindhamster]

23 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Even if I accept that it's possible to even do 2.4 damage on something, using Auspex Tactics own data it is clear the Thunder Hammer is out performed by power fists by a decent margin against the majority of targets and only marginly does any better against Terminators than the power fist.

the differences are so minimal though, that they all perform pretty similarly. if you round the numbers:

vs Termegaunts - the fist does 5 wounds to the hammers 4

vs intercessors - the fist does 5 wounds to the hammers 4

vs terminators - the fist and hammer both do 2

vs rhinos - the first and hamer both do 2

vs land raiders the fist does 1 and the hammer does 2

 

So, the hammer is slightly better at hurting vehicles after all! :D

Overall, seems pretty balanced between them though. It's only really vs gaunts that the hammer is better (as 5 wounds to intercessors and 4 wounds to intercessors means 2 dead intercessors regardless). The relic blade is the weapon that suffers most, which is a shame if they are all the same cost.

6 minutes ago, Kilamandaros said:

Will be a tough sell to ever use TH termies over regular now, might shoot themselves in the foot when it comes to remaking the assault termie box...

Depends on what the shields are like I guess, and what their special unit rule does.

[BluejayJunior]

Does the math take into account the weapon rules? If it doesn't, the Devastating Wounds could change that against 1W models. Especially when taken in quantity. Every 6 to wound against 1W models changes it from killing 1 model to killing 2. 

[spessmarine]

Given how a bunch of 10th is undoing chunks of 8th/9th, who knows, maybe combi-gun selection will be back in 12th

[Tacitus]

Combi Weapons are meh

 

Twin Linking the Lightning Claws is even worse.

 

The Relic Shield change is the worst of all.

[spessmarine]

Given this is somewhat the general space marines in 10th thread, I guess this thread works.

 

I wonder how HH stuff that crosses over will work, I haven't seen any HH stuff in the edition articles as far as I recall.

Before what was plastic was included in the codex and what was resin stayed in Imperial Armour, with so many new plastics what will happen? Will the Imperial Armour stuff now include resin and plastic? Will HH plastic be in the Index: Space Marines?

 

I know they mentioned something about Imperial Armour index cards shortly after 10th launch, but not much about where plastic HH stuff will land.

 

 

1 hour ago, Tacitus said:

Combi Weapons are meh

 

Twin Linking the Lightning Claws is even worse.

 

The Relic Shield change is the worst of all.

Twin-Linked claws is basically the claws as usual.
The bigger crime is the ever-changing nature of Twin-Linked. Now Twin-Linked is the old Shred?

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by spessmarine

[Sir Clausel]

Maybe single lightning claws will get "shred" which is reroll 1s to wound? Keeps the theme and GW seems to like the lightning claws to be taken as a pair. Lets be real... Lightning claws are the coolest as a pair :)

[Karhedron]

4 hours ago, Tacitus said:

The Relic Shield change is the worst of all.

 

I think this is because it needs to provide about the same level of value as the Stormbolter and Combi weapon. It is no longer an upgrade, it is a sidegrade. My hunch is that the Captain will be the same points cost regardless of loadout so the different options have been tweaked to be roughly equivalent overall. There is no point in providing a 4++ as the Terminator armour now provides that by default. +1 to the save would still be nice but might actually be too good in the era of reduced AP. +1W is a simple mechanic and it means it will take an extra failed save against 1D, 2D and 3D weapons to kill him,

[Tokugawa]

Single claw is just power weapon, S5 ap-2 dmg1. 

 

I won't be surprised if GW says lightning claws must be taken in pairs, since all the current plastic kits including claw bits in pairs.

[Tokugawa]

2 hours ago, spessmarine said:

Given this is somewhat the general space marines in 10th thread, I guess this thread works.

 

I wonder how HH stuff that crosses over will work, I haven't seen any HH stuff in the edition articles as far as I recall.

Before what was plastic was included in the codex and what was resin stayed in Imperial Armour, with so many new plastics what will happen? Will the Imperial Armour stuff now include resin and plastic? Will HH plastic be in the Index: Space Marines?

 

 

 

Imo, HH plastics with same unit already exists in 40k would work as "skin". If you love the model, just buy it and play. No reason to make "Deimos rhino" and "Rhino" two different unit entries in 10th 40k, that would be opposition to "simple and streamline". 

 

HH products which didn't exist in 40k before would be given 40k rules to be played legally. The power of their rules would be controlled to ensure them won't become competitive staples.

[Tacitus]

3 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

I think this is because it needs to provide about the same level of value as the Stormbolter and Combi weapon. It is no longer an upgrade, it is a sidegrade. My hunch is that the Captain will be the same points cost regardless of loadout so the different options have been tweaked to be roughly equivalent overall. There is no point in providing a 4++ as the Terminator armour now provides that by default. +1 to the save would still be nice but might actually be too good in the era of reduced AP. +1W is a simple mechanic and it means it will take an extra failed save against 1D, 2D and 3D weapons to kill him,

It never was an "upgrade" it was a substitution for Captain(s) taking Stormshields that already had a 4++ from their Iron Halo so a Storm Shield did nothing for them, while the Relic Shield added the save vs Mortals. 

3 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

Single claw is just power weapon, S5 ap-2 dmg1. 

 

I won't be surprised if GW says lightning claws must be taken in pairs, since all the current plastic kits including claw bits in pairs.

All the kits (AFAIK) provide pairs but don't/haven't required Pairs, so all the people who built a captain with a plasman pistol and a single claw - or Primaris Shrike - among others would be somewhat stuck. 

[Kallas]

4 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

I won't be surprised if GW says lightning claws must be taken in pairs, since all the current plastic kits including claw bits in pairs.

It's not exactly the standard Lightning Claw user, but the Devastator Sergeant gets only one Lightning Claw in the box. It's not technically universal, and as @Tacitus says, it's not been the requirement for years: forcing it now would be awkward for probably quite a lot of people.

[Karhedron]

Given the popularity of LC/SS VanVets for most of 9th edition, I can see forced pairing making a lot of people unhappy.

[Blindhamster]

Lightning claws never made sense to me, they’re power fists with added claws that really seem like they should be a straight upgrade. The modern primaris ones actual fix this by replacing the power fist element with a more normal gauntlet.

 

anyway, as it is, making them just be power weapons is fine, power weapons don’t suck, and if they cost no points, it’s a non issue

[spessmarine]

18 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

Imo, HH plastics with same unit already exists in 40k would work as "skin". If you love the model, just buy it and play. No reason to make "Deimos rhino" and "Rhino" two different unit entries in 10th 40k, that would be opposition to "simple and streamline". 

 

HH products which didn't exist in 40k before would be given 40k rules to be played legally. The power of their rules would be controlled to ensure them won't become competitive staples.

 

Oh absolutely, Deimos is just a Rhino but a nicer kit as far as I am concerned. But that really isn't an issue I believe. 

[Maritn]

After a long break, coming back to 8th edition and seeing that combi weapons suddenly were better versions of meltas etc instead of bolters with a once per game super shot I was quite surprised. I'm ok with them going back to being bolters, just a bit better. Wounding all infantry on 4+ with a critical sounds right to me. They represent what these weapons used to be, but removed the additional admin.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Maritn
Spelling

[Tacitus]

20 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

Lightning claws never made sense to me, they’re power fists with added claws that really seem like they should be a straight upgrade. The modern primaris ones actual fix this by replacing the power fist element with a more normal gauntlet.

 

anyway, as it is, making them just be power weapons is fine, power weapons don’t suck, and if they cost no points, it’s a non issue

They make more sense when you buy the newest issue of Wolverine and the X-Men from the same place you buy your models. 

 

And yes, taking one LC - meh on the rules.  Taking two - which almost always means giving up a pistol/shooting should have a significant boost over Gun + Power Weapon - Assault/DW Terminators giving up the TH/SS or SB/PF for 2LC should get a major ginsu vibe from it - same with Vanguard Vets.