What does everyone think of 10th so far?

[Bouargh]

On 4/17/2023 at 8:39 AM, Bouargh said:

Based on the few info published, which is probably incomplete and offers only a partial view, I am not convinced at all.

We all see the cosmetic/editing rearrangment of the stuff, which per se is not a bad thing, but that is not going to simplify many thing on the whole life cycle of a game.

 

 

Could be a good moment to update/revise my preliminary feelings from a month agonow that the amount of consolidated info is substancially larger.

 

I remain globally unconvinced, but more moderatly. I do not see so much changes in the basic rules so far, so I guess "moving chairs"´ feeling remain true as stated very initially by @Tacitus.

What still makes me confused are the Faction + detachment rules combinations. For me, this is a mess.

Every single faction is special. Every single detachment is special. almost every single unit is special. There is no baseline/standard archetype. This is IMHO another type of rules´ bloat but under disguise. Even if the disguise is poor.

I have been convinced through 8, 9, 10th Ed that, if an army needs buff and bonuses to be competitive (buffs and bonuses that are NOT related to a specific tactical archetype (infiltration for GSC, endless waves for Tyranids...)) they were simptomas of a weak-by-design approach. 

 

The multiplication of faith dices and other dice pools, the various deployment zone maluses without forgetting the +/- to hit or to wound or to do-whatever-thing .... introduced through these Faction+Detachment rules is for me a real game design issue.

 

Armies are all different, but it does not mean that each needs to be special, in many cases the profiles of the units and a more limited number of special rules should be enough.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Bouargh

[Tacitus]

2 hours ago, Bouargh said:

 

What sitll makes me confused are the Faction + detachment rules combinations. For me, this is a mess.

Every single faction is special. Every single detachment is special. almost every single unit is special. There is no baseline/standard archetype. This is IMHO another type of rules´ bloat but under disguise. Even if the disguise is poor.

Well I personally hate the term "bloat" because it's invariably used to describe things people don't use and don't care about usually because its not from THEIR army.   But anyone who expected "bloat" to go away was kidding themselves.   

 

The Faction/Detachment abilites have been good to Meh and there's just going to be more of them once the codices hit.  I'd be worried about a strong Faction hitting a strong Det - for example DG got a pretty nifty Faction ability, and a really lackluster Det ability.  They get a better nicer Det Ability in the codex and it could get a little wild. 

 

[Captain Idaho]

I wait with trepidation on Relic Terminators still being a thing. Got a feeling they're gonna be gone 

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

I wait with trepidation on Relic Terminators still being a thing. Got a feeling they're gonna be gone 

They're going to stay a thing, but there's going to be even less of a distinction between them - potentially even one Datasheet for all the model kits that work out the same. 

[Captain Idaho]

They already are one sheet for both types of Terminators. Or do you mean mainline Terminators?

 

Which I don't think will share a sheet. Infact we've seen the Terminators sheet and it doesn't appear to share the wargear options.

 

But I'll build 10 more Cataphractii Terminators if they're still a thing. 

[Tacitus]

I think it wouldn't shock me to see "Curent" Terminators and "Relic" Terminators drop to 1 datasheet for all.   You've only got a few option issues - TH/SS, Plasma Blaster, and Volkite Charger.

 

TH/SS isn't that hard to fudge - they start with normal gauntlets and just pick up a TH/SS (the fact that Relic Terminators can't already do so is fairly silly).  I know of no reason the "modern" terminators can't pick up a Plasma Blaster and/or Volkite Charger.  The only reason it isn't already this way is the spure I'd guess.  But as soon as you can mix and match armor types in the "All Inclusive" Terminator Squad you've already got both sprues if you're mixing and matching. 

[9x19 Parabellum]

The idea of Horus Heresy Cata Terminators being mixed in with the new Primaris terminators is so aesthetically offensive to me that I have to take a cold shower.

[Tacitus]

Its the natural progression here - 

Intro Primaris

Buff Firstborn to reduce the difference

Remove the keyword

Add Primaris Armored versions of Firstborn Squads

Intermix the squads/armors (Sternguard) and add the last buff to make them indistinguishable stat-wise.

 

Range refresh with Primaris killing off Firstborn by becoming Firstborn after a plan reset complete. 

[Khornestar]

Liking it plenty still, now that I’ve listened to all the core rules via Honest Wargamer.

 

No moving after disembarking from a transport that moved, not thrilled by that but it makes sense since they can disembark after the transport moves, and can shoot at least - and charge,  if it’s a Land Raider.

 

Infantry and beasts can move through ruins, so that’s nice.  

[Tacitus]

I'm less impressed with how limited charging out of Transports is - Most of the things you want to charge out of a Land Raider you don't want to put in a Land Raider - Terminators can teleport, Aggressor's shooting is a little too good etc. 

[The Unseen]

The land raider is going to get those terminators a LOT closer than a 9" charge away.

[Karhedron]

There are plenty of good units to put in Land Raiders. Bladeguard Veterans, Assault Intercessors, Flamestorm Aggressors, Wulfen. Even Terminators are good because without a reroll, they only have a 28% chance of pulling off a charge out of Deep Strike.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm pretty sure Assault Terminators are going to be fearsome too.

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

I'm pretty sure Assault Terminators are going to be fearsome too.

 

I think the Captain would be a good choice for leading assault Termies as the reroll to charge would be very useful. 

[Tacitus]

4 hours ago, Karhedron said:

There are plenty of good units to put in Land Raiders. Bladeguard Veterans, Assault Intercessors, Flamestorm Aggressors, Wulfen. Even Terminators are good because without a reroll, they only have a 28% chance of pulling off a charge out of Deep Strike.

BGV and Assault Intercessors are better in an Impulsor - it's likely to retain the X++ even if it doesn't have the Assault Ramp - Flamestorm Aggressors were never my cup of tea and are likely to be even less so while they're Twin Linked.  Terminators make the Land Raider target #1 - Maybe Telion makes it work, but that's a lot of eggs in the basket when you can Rock-Hardplace with a Teleport Strike.   And we're still probably looking at Transports that will have limited "roads" to travel on.  I'm not sure yet what it looks like, but I still think we're - especially Ultras - doing the Moving Castle thing around Papa or Grandpappy Smurf as a centerpiece - the question is going to be what the surrounding pieces were - Last edition I layered Aggressors, BGV, Chief Apothecary, (Chapter) Ancient, Tiggy, and a DIY Primaris MOS. Tiggy made stuff hard to hit, The Apothecary brought it back, the Aggressors Dakka'ed the chaff, and punched the tanks, while the BGV Ginsu'ed the MEQs and a unit of (some sort of) Intercessor Sticky Capped.   I'm hoping the Impulsors and Repulsors regain FLY - I like the idea of Impulsors dropping Units-Formerly-Known-As-Troops to mid/far field objectives - though I think the big winner is Drop Pods. 

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Tacitus said:

BGV and Assault Intercessors are better in an Impulsor - it's likely to retain the X++ even if it doesn't have the Assault Ramp

 

 

I would much rather have the melee units in a Land Raider so that I can Move(LR) + Disembark + Charge. That gives the unit inside an extra 4" threat range compared to getting out of an Impulsor before it moves. I am hoping the Impulsor gains the rule for shooting from the firing deck, that would make it handy for shoot-n-scoot units like Hellblasters.

 

[Tacitus]

I suspect Hellblasters will be replacing Sternguard in the Drop Pod Bombs.   I would much rather melee units in a Land Raider too - what I'm saying though is that I don't think it's going to work yet.   As far as I've seen - they haven't fixed movement for non-flying vehicles, Land Raiders will still be pretty expensive in a 2K list, putting a bunch of expensive troops in them will make them even more priority targets, They still don't have an invuln - the Toughness boost PROBABLY did remove a lot of the median Heavies from the threat pool, but Pulse Cannons, Rail Guns, Linked Prism Cannons, Lascannon, Baneblades, High Intensity Las Impulsors, and so on and so on.   Not all factions are going to start out with these big boys on top of vehicles they'd take anyway (either because they already were taking Imperial Knights as their faction, or because IG Super Heavy Tanks are the face of their Franchise (I.e. the big boy rifle is mounted on a vehicle that is so intrinsic to their faction to begin with).   

 

One of the points I'm making here is that there's a difference between "Transporting is Better" and "Transporting is Good"  They've made the initial steps to get "Transporting Is Better" - Its going to have to shake out and follow up for an edition or two to get "Transporting is Good" - Let alone for a specific transport like Land Raiders or Repulsors - if Repulsors get bigger transport capacity, Assault Ramps, and some limited version of ignores/moves-over-terrain-like-flight/infantry the Repulsor would possibly-to-likely be a good transport. 

 

Remember when Fortifications were first coming out?  And someone did a news article using the pre-placed tournament terrain packages for a recent event to show how often you could and couldn't place the new Space Marine Bunker let alone how many legal places there were?   Now think about how big the bunker is, how big the Land Raider is, and that the Land Raider needs a "road" from where it can be placed in your DZ through your DZ, to no-man's land in order to drop toops - and that road needs to be basically large enough to place a Bunker all the way through. 

[Karhedron]

4 hours ago, Tacitus said:

if Repulsors get bigger transport capacity, Assault Ramps, and some limited version of ignores/moves-over-terrain-like-flight/infantry the Repulsor would possibly-to-likely be a good transport. 

 

Repulsors are going up to 12 Transport Capacity so you get half your wish. They don't get Assault Ramps but they do get a special rule allowing nearby infantry to leap back inside if they get charged. They are more defensive than Land Raiders. No word on ignoring terrain.

 

Quote

The Repulsor lets endangered Space Marines dive inside when an enemy charge draws near!

 

[Tacitus]

Meh.  I sort of like that they have different abilities especially now that they can carry the same stuff but still meh.  I suppose there's still a chance for the return of Open Topped for the Impulsor.  And fixing the "roads" issue.  - That and first turn alpha is probably the biggest issue facing transports/tanks right now.   Yeah, I know they upped the Toughness, but they also make upped a lot of the tank killing weapons so sure the Devastator Squad with four lascannon might not be popping your Land Raider turn 1 by themselves, but there's going to be a lot of the other guy's vehicles with a rail gun etc ready to do it.  To my mind those two go hand in hand.  Because you have at best 2-3 ways out of your deployment zone with the Transport, its easy for the anti-tank to pick their field of fire. 

[Arkangilos]

I’m liking what I’m seeing for the most part. The issues I have is the same issue I have with the 8+ rule set in general but it isn’t a game breaker for me.

[Tacitus]

I just did some back-of-the-napkin MathHammer on Man Portable Anti-tank (think 4 Devs with Lascannon) - and while they did more than chip the paint on a Monolith, it wasn't much more.  I'm guessing Take All Comer lists will not generally be all Infantry unless the Anti-tank plan is melee. I'm also not convinced Main Battle Tank type models will be the solution/problem for all factions.  Ground tanks may have movement issues - but the Deep Striking Monolith feels like a good bet, as do the flying tanks of the Tau and Eldar - though Lances (probably due to their Man Portable presence on Weapon Platforms) don't look any better than lascannon. 

 

Depending on Points a smaller footprint big gun tank (Rhino Chassis) like the Vindicator might have legs.  The Ballistus Dread might be dead in the water. depending on points - if you can get the same output from a Dev Squad for cheaper for instance.  I'm not sure the Invader ATV is a good choice with Multimeltas wounding on 5's for D6+2 damage at half range vs D6+1 at any range for the Lascannon more likely to wound on 4's vs the medium tanks/vehicles.  The Stormraven Gunship may have a spot.   The Terminus Ultra is in Legends.  It may be a good year for Forgeworld, and the Astreas, the Falchion or Fellblade. Maybe Twin LC Razorbacks if they get the Godhammer treatment and stay cheap.   Getting bigger than a Lascannon may be difficult for SM. 

[9x19 Parabellum]

I was more-or-less cautiously optimistic, up until the Thousand Sons and Grey Knight reveals.

 

Twist of Fate looks broken as all hell to me, and Grey Knights bamfing all over the battlefield just strikes me as annoying and odd.

[Karhedron]

17 hours ago, Tacitus said:

 Getting bigger than a Lascannon may be difficult for SM. 

 

Yes, there do not look like too many options at the moment apart from the Vindicator. The Repuksor Executioner and Gladiator Lancer both have bigger guns but we don't know the price-point yet. I am think that this might be why Marines get Oath Of Moment as a faction ability. They will probably rely on man-portable weapons and rerolls to take down big targets a lot of the time.

[Kilamandaros]

On 5/30/2023 at 5:54 AM, Tacitus said:

I just did some back-of-the-napkin MathHammer on Man Portable Anti-tank (think 4 Devs with Lascannon) - and while they did more than chip the paint on a Monolith, it wasn't much more.  I'm guessing Take All Comer lists will not generally be all Infantry unless the Anti-tank plan is melee. I'm also not convinced Main Battle Tank type models will be the solution/problem for all factions.  Ground tanks may have movement issues - but the Deep Striking Monolith feels like a good bet, as do the flying tanks of the Tau and Eldar - though Lances (probably due to their Man Portable presence on Weapon Platforms) don't look any better than lascannon. 

 

Depending on Points a smaller footprint big gun tank (Rhino Chassis) like the Vindicator might have legs.  The Ballistus Dread might be dead in the water. depending on points - if you can get the same output from a Dev Squad for cheaper for instance.  I'm not sure the Invader ATV is a good choice with Multimeltas wounding on 5's for D6+2 damage at half range vs D6+1 at any range for the Lascannon more likely to wound on 4's vs the medium tanks/vehicles.  The Stormraven Gunship may have a spot.   The Terminus Ultra is in Legends.  It may be a good year for Forgeworld, and the Astreas, the Falchion or Fellblade. Maybe Twin LC Razorbacks if they get the Godhammer treatment and stay cheap.   Getting bigger than a Lascannon may be difficult for SM. 

 

Especially now FW is all gone to legends! Will probably just have to pay out for that laser destroyer on the executioner.

[Helias_Tancred]

I'm still happy for 10th and look forward to playing it. I have yet to disagree with any rules leaks including what they sent to Legends the other day.

 

Still optimistic. 

even though I'm losing a couple models/units for my BA and DA.