What does everyone think of 10th so far?

[Blindhamster]

You misunderstand, I get lightning claws, I meant the old rules never matched the models, they should literally be powerfists with even better rules as they’re literally power fists with claws.

 

the newer primaris ones fit the rules better as they’re no longer power fist looking

[Karhedron]

I agree, back in 2nd Ed, Lightning claws were better than power fists. They had the same strength but did more wounds (D3 IIRC) and they had the "Parry" special rule which was quite tasty. For each Parry a model had, you could force the opponent to reroll one attack dice.

[Medicinal Carrots]

I'm starting to come around on combi-weapons, at least a little. Fewer things to keep track of, opportunities to build your models "wrong", and potential balance issues with costs. Doing some quick math, they're decent anti-elite infantry weapons, outperforming storm bolters against the likes of marines and terminators, but worse against horde type stuff like guard or orks (and still better than regular bolters against many targets, at least in rapid fire range). Still going to miss having more options, and dedicated anti-elite stuff will outclass them, but they aren't going to be crap. There will finally be a reason to take the special weapons in a Sternguard squad.

[Tacitus]

I'm still meh.  I'd have preferred their default gun be equivalent to the combi-weapon than the combi-weapon being equivalent to a default gun.  Of course that may not be possible outside of Sternguard given the vast pool of models that can take one. 

[Dark Shepherd]

Vindicators look like they could be a dark horse depending on points and what buff the siege shield gives

 

Toughness up and its gun will be D6 + 3 shots Blast 3+BS S14 Ap-3 d6 D blast (going by Baneblade demolisher canon preview) albeit 24' range

 

Plus a hunter killer missile

[Lemondish]

On 5/10/2023 at 9:03 AM, Captain Idaho said:

we can already see GW have made a mistake with some weapons and the game isn't even out yet

 

What makes you say this?

[Captain Idaho]

The rest of the post explains that out of context sentence, as does my part in the discussion here, as a whole. 

[Lemondish]

42 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

The rest of the post explains that out of context sentence, as does my part in the discussion here, as a whole. 

 

I wouldn't have asked if I didn't need additional clarity since it was difficult for me to follow how your initial assessment on Thunder Hammers, absent a tremendous amount of edition knowledge, could possibly have led you to this conclusion.

 

Clocked it initially as further hyperbole, so I suppose it wasn't far off.

Edited May 15, 2023 by Lemondish

[Captain Idaho]

We're not absent loads of information though. We have plenty of context in the faction focus, people have played games of 10th, the Internet has shared information etc.

 

Back when the morale rules came out for 8th and 9th, people could call it straight away what the issues were. We were told then that "we don't know all the information" but the experience of long term players can tell when something isn't working.

 

Whilst nothing is written in stone, looking at Thunder Hammers from what you've mentioned, from a competitive perspective, we can see they aren't as effective as a chainfist or power fist for something like a Captain. (I say the chainfist for the likes of the Smash Captain builds, popular but not something I did. Not that I think Smash Captains will be worth while going forward personally, but maybe)

 

I was pointed to watch Auspex Tactics to contradict this, but the maths from that very video actually backed up my conclusion.

 

Thunder Hammers appear to have a niche fighting large Elites with Invulnerable saves or use en masse by squads (which case they're going to be scary) but I would say the risk of fluffing your attacks against Terminators for a character means taking them on up close in the first place is probably a mistake.

 

Personally, I'm still using Thunder Hammers on my Captains as they're good fun if you can roll 6s (which I can't, but one day...) and I'm happy with the models, but I know they won't be the most effective builds.

[Karhedron]

A change that is unpopular with older players with existing collections is not automatically a mistake. Sternguard with Combi weapons in their existing form had been largely obsoleted by Primaris units anyway.

 

Combi-plas: Hellblasters

Combi-melta: Eradicators

Combi-flamer: Infernus squad

 

Granted there is no combi grav but Grav has not been strong throughout 9th and Devs and Centurions already fill that niche. There are a few oddball units like Space Wolf Terminators with combi weapons but I suspect those will fall victim of GW's "no models, no rules" policy in 10th edition anyway.

 

The change in combi-weapons is most annoying to those players who have converted up units to try an maximise a particular combi-weapon. Those units no longer fill their intended role. For other players it is likely to be a non-issue since if they want a squad specialising in one type of special weapon, they can simply take one of the Primaris units above (especially now Primaris can make wider use of Firstborn transports).

 

Combi weapons have been given a new niche in dishing out Mortal Wounds to infantry. Given that Terminators are likely to feature in the 10th edition meta anyway, this is not a bad role. Then there are Custodians, Deathguard, Wraithguard and other assorted tough infantry.

 

I am not saying that everyone should be happy with the changes but that does not make them a mistake. GW have changed combi-weapons' intended role and I can see the reason for the decision based on the various specialised Primaris infantry squads that have been released.

[Captain Idaho]

Depends on your definition of mistake in this circumstance really. I'm taking GW at their word when they say they're intending to balance the game and if they put something into the Codex then they should be trying to include that unit within.

 

And Sternguard are very much a new unit that appear to be Primaris now, so poorer rules for them obsolete with Hellblasters etc being superior is very much a failure on the rules front. Same goes for Thunder Hammers - they're on the new GW release rules so if they're not effective or a subpar choice, that's a mistake.

[Karhedron]

2 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

And Sternguard are very much a new unit that appear to be Primaris now, so poorer rules for them obsolete with Hellblasters etc being superior is very much a failure on the rules front. Same goes for Thunder Hammers - they're on the new GW release rules so if they're not effective or a subpar choice, that's a mistake.

 

I would argue they are not obsolete though. Hellblasters obsolete combi-plasma certainly but not the new combi-weapons. if you are shooting at any infantry with an Invulnerable save then combi-weapons seem to have the edge. Then there is the issue of cost. Sternguard were 20ppm in 9th edition while Hellblasters are 33ppm.  Granted we don't know if the new Sternguard can be equipped with all combi-weapons (the monopose models shown so far only have 2 in a squad) but if your primary target is elite infantry then combi-weapons look to put out more wounds per point than Hellblasters.

 

Granted Hellblasters are more flexible but with most vehicles getting a toughness boost, I don't think they are going to be so effective as an anti-armour unit as they were in 8th/9th. Hellblasters are going to need 5s to wound most vehicles so plasma may lose its lustre as the all-round go-to flexible choice.

 

Again, I don't think this makes combi-weapons a mistake, they just have a different niche now.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm fairly certain we'll see people neglect combi-weapons going forward, with the current rules. 10 Chaos Terminators or Sternguard all with Combi-weapons, rapid firing (so dropping in without losses) will on averages cause 5 Mortal Wounds. Which is terrible for the points they'll likely cost, compared to Hellblasters or equal points of something else shooting at the target.

 

The fact Hellblasters are likely not going to be good against vehicles (I agree) just emphasises that the competition for Combi weapons platforms is going to be fierce.

[Karhedron]

15 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

I'm fairly certain we'll see people neglect combi-weapons going forward, with the current rules. 10 Chaos Terminators or Sternguard all with Combi-weapons, rapid firing (so dropping in without losses) will on averages cause 5 Mortal Wounds. Which is terrible for the points they'll likely cost, compared to Hellblasters or equal points of something else shooting at the target.

 

Again it all comes down to points. If combi-weapons continue to cost +5ppm then you may be right about the CSM Termies. However the stats look more like a sidegrade to the Stormbolter rather than an upgrade. If they cost the same points then you have a valid choice to make. Against an Ork horde, you are going to want the Stormbolters. Against other Terminators, the combi-weapons will be a lot better as 10 Storm Bolters will only cause 1.5 wounds to Terminators. 5 MWs looks a lot better when compared in that context.

 

As for Sternguard, those 5MWs become 11MWs if that target has been OOMed. Against Terminators, Custodes etc, that is a heck of a lot of bang for your buck (far more than Hellblasters in fact).

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah but if you use Oath of Moment in your equation, what would Hellblasters do then?

 

I do think they'll be a side grading everything bar certain weapons now. Which I'm not totally against to be honest.

[Kallas]

3 hours ago, Karhedron said:

Again, I don't think this makes combi-weapons a mistake, they just have a different niche now.

I think this is a mistake, because it fundamentally changes what those weapons are there for, and it reduces the visual differences to nothing. Why even have Melta weapons any more? Why have Flamers? Why do we still have distinct special weapons? Why don't we just have Heavy Weapon options - instead of a Heavy Bolter, an Autocannon, a Lascannon and a Missile Launcher, why not just one profile that rolls them all together?

 

It's inconsistent and not representative of what those weapons are. If it were instead special issue ammunition I could understand it as a profile, but rolling Flamers, Meltas, Plasma and Grav all in together is a mistake - visually, lorefully, and removes the purpose of having different options in the first place.

 

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

if that target has been OOMed

Any weapon can benefit from OOM. This is not unique to Combi-Weapons.

[Maritn]

I understand your preference for differentiation, but most people don't bother magnetising, and knowing you can build what looks cool without shooting yourself in the foot is a plus for me.

 

Also you're exaggerating with your comparison to heavy weapons. Combi weapons used to be bolters with a one time use only special shot, so even in the fluff they are more similar to each other than a Heavy Bolter to a Lascannon.

[Kallas]

38 minutes ago, Maritn said:

Also you're exaggerating with your comparison to heavy weapons.

Yes, it's exaggeration for effect. It is the logical conclusion of the point, however - if one weapon is great in one Edition then obsolete in the next, is that not the same as Combis? It literally is the same situation: some things improve or weaken in rules, but there's no real call to consolidate heavy weapons together just to avoid someone modelling their toy soldiers differently and feeling bad.

[The Neverborn]

I don't know if this counts as "10th".  But...

 

I prefer the old style design of the standard Space Marine "first born" Power Armour to the Primaris models. Glad I sold off my Dark Angels when I did.

 

I'm Probably going to try and pick some up cheap minis off ebay eventually and start a 30k Army.

 

I know depending on when and who some of the kits aren't "correct" for that period, in terms of the Mark of Power Armour. But i'm not purist enough to care about that.

 

I won't say I'd never start another 40k Marines army now, but it's  extremely unlikely 

[Medicinal Carrots]

On the subject of captain melee weapons, I think the only one that doesn't have a place is the sword (assuming they all cost the same). It is never the best option, and aside from T9, it is always beaten by the power fist. The power fist is the clear jack of all trades winner. The chainfist is one of the best infantry portable anti-vehicle options we've seen so far. The claws are best against 1W infantry. And the hammer is the monster killer, being best against T8+ non-vehicles with a 2+ and/or 4++ save. Ideal choice is going to depend on how the meta shakes out, but I think it's too early to dismiss any of them wholesale.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Medicinal Carrots

[Tacitus]

On 5/14/2023 at 2:30 PM, Dark Shepherd said:

Vindicators look like they could be a dark horse depending on points and what buff the siege shield gives

 

Toughness up and its gun will be D6 + 3 shots Blast 3+BS S14 Ap-3 d6 D blast (going by Baneblade demolisher canon preview) albeit 24' range

 

Plus a hunter killer missile

What makes you say that?  I haven't seen a Vindicator leak?

[Tacitus]

18 hours ago, Karhedron said:

A change that is unpopular with older players with existing collections is not automatically a mistake. Sternguard with Combi weapons in their existing form had been largely obsoleted by Primaris units anyway.

 

Combi-plas: Hellblasters

Combi-melta: Eradicators

Combi-flamer: Infernus squad

 

Granted there is no combi grav but Grav has not been strong throughout 9th and Devs and Centurions already fill that niche. There are a few oddball units like Space Wolf Terminators with combi weapons but I suspect those will fall victim of GW's "no models, no rules" policy in 10th edition anyway.

 

The change in combi-weapons is most annoying to those players who have converted up units to try an maximise a particular combi-weapon. Those units no longer fill their intended role. For other players it is likely to be a non-issue since if they want a squad specialising in one type of special weapon, they can simply take one of the Primaris units above (especially now Primaris can make wider use of Firstborn transports).

 

Combi weapons have been given a new niche in dishing out Mortal Wounds to infantry. Given that Terminators are likely to feature in the 10th edition meta anyway, this is not a bad role. Then there are Custodians, Deathguard, Wraithguard and other assorted tough infantry.

 

I am not saying that everyone should be happy with the changes but that does not make them a mistake. GW have changed combi-weapons' intended role and I can see the reason for the decision based on the various specialised Primaris infantry squads that have been released.

On the flip side, you no longer need combi-weapon sternguard for the bombs.  5-10 Hellblasters will fit in a Drop Pod now so you still have your Drop Pod Bomb, just not using Sternguard anymore. 

[Karhedron]

3 hours ago, Tacitus said:

What makes you say that?  I haven't seen a Vindicator leak?

 

True but we have seen the Demolisher Cannon stats on the Leman Russ leak.

 

 

Short ranged but definitely a good option against most targets. That is an average of 8 Wounds on a T12 Repulsor. If Vindicators remain close to their 8th edition costs, they look to be a pretty effective option.

[Tacitus]

11 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

True but we have seen the Demolisher Cannon stats on the Leman Russ leak.

 

 

Short ranged but definitely a good option against most targets. That is an average of 8 Wounds on a T12 Repulsor. If Vindicators remain close to their 8th edition costs, they look to be a pretty effective option.

They're not necessarily going to be the same - keep that in mind.

 

The knee jerk reaction is to say even if they're cheap they might not be worth the Heavy slot, but there aren't any Heavy Slots anymore.   But its still a vehicle that doesn't fly.  I'd wait to see what the rules are for that before I go out and buy a bunch. 

[Captain Idaho]

Likely to be the same though. So far GW has been fairly consistent.