How do you feel about the Militia PDF, and has it inspired any new list ideas?

[Hfran Morkai]

2 hours ago, Stitch5000 said:

I'd have jumped in there if there were rules for bretonians and the Commandos at Normandy, but those things don't actually exist during the HH period either. 

 

That's funny because I'm certain that Chimeras and quite possibly Valkyries are mentioned in that long running series of books.

 

Also, dual Lascannon Predators weren't a HH thing until 2.0, I don't recall them being mentioned in the books.

 

 

Edited April 21, 2023 by Hfran Morkai

[Gorgoff]

2 hours ago, lansalt said:

Vehicles like the Chimera or even the Taurox already existed during the GC/HH.

Serious question:

Where?

I have by no means read every HH novel but so far I haven't heared of the Taurox.

Chimeras I am uncertain. I think I read something, but I am not sure. 

1 hour ago, Hfran Morkai said:

 

That's funny because I'm certain that Chimeras and quite possibly Valkyries are mentioned in that long running series of books.

 

Although I think a Valkyre is absolutely ok because it is generic enough to represent other flyers I may add that the novels have a lot of mistakes to offer where the actual fluff is just ignored or things are not quite right.

 

1 hour ago, Hfran Morkai said:

Also, dual Lascannon Predators weren't a HH thing until 2.0, I don't recall them being mentioned in the books.

Yes but GW wants to sell us new toys. 

MK6 wasn't called "The main power armor mark of the HH" either but they changed it the moment they wanted to sell their new box. Same with other things.

Quote

Don't confuse FW gatekeeping the game for their own range of models with the actual fluff.

Let us net forget that this door swings in both directions. GW wants to sell their stuff and there change things.

Sometimes for the better, sometimes... not so much.

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, Hfran Morkai said:

 

That's funny because I'm certain that Chimeras and quite possibly Valkyries are mentioned in that long running series of books.

 

Also, dual Lascannon Predators weren't a HH thing until 2.0, I don't recall them being mentioned in the books.

 

 

 

Neither was the cargo 8, complete with shipping container upgrade lol. Or for that matter, any of the completely new things they made for heresy over the years. And yea, the chimera does get mentioned in at least one heresy novel.

 

It's kinda funny, because the militia list is very obviously now advertising the sale of certain kits. "Buy the guard box for grenadiers", "buy the new heavy emplacement", "buy the new Roughriders", "buy the necromunda kit with jetpack, because that loadout is what you're locked into", etc... And they could have plugged the chimera in, no problem. But i guess the cargo 8 is a new mold and they need a return; better to sell new 120$ models than ancient 70$ ones.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stitch5000]

1 hour ago, Hfran Morkai said:

 

... that long running series of books.

 

 

 

 

At one point in that series of books, Mortarion boomerangs a Fire Raptor out of the air with his scythe-on-a-string, various characters kill greater deamons with bolt pistols and chainswords etc etc.  Some fairly incredible stuff is described and that's cool, because it's a dramatic telling of a story with a fantastical leaning, much like how most annecdotes are subject to embellishment, exaggeration and inflation over time. 

It's amusing how people get worked up about the greater prolferation of Mk6 armour because the previous fluff says that it shouldn't be (although it doesn;t actually say that), but then it's OK to go back on what has been written about the Chimera because they want that... I don't get it?

If you want to use Chimeras, just do it. You can, you imagined it. It's your game. GW doesn't have to write you a PDF permission slip. Just don;t expect them to facilitate your every whim because YOU interpret it to be correct. 

[Galron]

9 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

It's kinda funny, because the militia list is very obviously now advertising the sale of certain kits. "Buy the guard box for grenadiers", "buy the new heavy emplacement", "buy the new Roughriders", "buy the necromunda kit with jetpack, because that loadout is what you're locked into", etc... And they could have plugged the chimera in, no problem. But i guess the cargo 8 is a new mold and they need a return; better to sell new 120$ models than ancient 70$ ones.

 

 

I picked up on that almost immediately. Its funny because either Black Briar or Outer Circle did a whole video a month or two ago on how to go about using the new cadian big box in SA with analogues to about everything and pretty much it came true completely for the militia down to the field gun batteries. 

 

I like the infantry and sentinels. The third line vehicle thing is just stupid though. Yeah you can bring a bunch of AV14 vehicles but land raiders and rhinos still cost the same but with less BS and the major penalty of dying to one hit even on a simple glance. 

[Hfran Morkai]

Care to share with me where it says that Chimeras are specifically post-Heresy? I haven't read every Guard Codex or Imperial Armour so maybe there is something there.

 

I'm not expecting GW to facilitate my every whim at all, there are canonical references to Chimeras in the Heresy, something that makes sense as opposed to your pretty poor strawman argument to discredit and mock my opinion.

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 minute ago, Hfran Morkai said:

Care to share with me where it says that Chimeras are specifically post-Heresy? I haven't read every Guard Codex or Imperial Armour so maybe there is something there.

 

I'm not expecting GW to facilitate my every whim at all, there are canonical references to Chimeras in the Heresy, something that makes sense as opposed to your pretty poor strawman argument to discredit and mock my opinion.

 

It's an imperial armour that he's quoted everytime this comes up. Whenever people lament their forgeworld artillery squads of medusa/basilisk/whirlwind got dumpstered he'll say "they weren't supposed to be in the game because the chimera didn't exist". Missing that IAs are in-universe and very biased, and that using anachronistic gear is completely handwaved by the galaxy spanning industry, all with their own variances (like Sarum helms). The forgeworld hulls are either chimeras, or they're analogous in the shape and armour proficiency. 

[SlickSamos]

14 minutes ago, Stitch5000 said:

If you want to use Chimeras, just do it.

I imagine 7th Ed rules for them are just fine 

[lansalt]

25 minutes ago, Gorgoff said:

Serious question:

Where?

I have by no means read every HH novel but so far I haven't heared of the Taurox.

Chimeras I am uncertain. I think I read something, but I am not sure. 

 

Chimeras appear in several HH books, like Descent of Angels during the GC:

Quote

Ugly grey boxes on tracks were parked there, vehicles that were called Chimeras by the Imperials. They were noisy and uncomfortable to ride in, and they churned the ground they crossed to ruined mud. There was no nobility to them, and even their very name struck a chord of unease in Zahariel after so long fearing such beasts in the dark forests of Caliban.

 

The Taurox was featured in Fury of Magnus:

Quote

When Promeus emerged from the aid station, he saw Bjarki pulling up in a boxy slab of metal mounted on quad-tracks with a fore-mounted turret fitted with some kind of gatling cannon. Widdowsyn climbed aboard to man the topside gun, as the three Salamanders circled the vehicle with disdainful eyes.
The Rune Priest dropped down from the armoured side door and battered his one remaining fist against the vehicle’s dusty, bullet-scarred plating.
‘Look at this!’ he cried. ‘The man who gave me this said it is called a Taurox.’
‘It’s the ugliest thing I’ve ever seen,’ said Promeus.

Which also mentions vehicles similar to the Cargo-8:

Quote

In the wake of the detonation, Imperial Fists under Captain Iacono redeployed to Hemispheric Nine, two thousand gold-clad warriors held in reserve to blunt any breakthrough. They disembarked from Rhinos, Tauroxes and heavy-duty cargo flatbeds, quickly forming up by squads and rushing to the walls.

 

And since we're at it, besides the Tallarn stories, books like SoT Warhawk explicitly mention Leman Russes with sponsons:

Quote

Kaska's tank was called Alka 73. It was a standard Ryza-pattern hull. Decent engine, decent cannons, no sponson gunners on this variant. Some commanders would have missed those - handy in a close fight, they said - but Kaska was glad not to have them. The innards of a Leman Russ were hot and cramped enough once the shells were loaded, before you tried to cram in two more sweaty bodies.

[Stitch5000]

1 hour ago, Hfran Morkai said:

Care to share with me where it says that Chimeras are specifically post-Heresy? I haven't read every Guard Codex or Imperial Armour so maybe there is something there.

 

I'm not expecting GW to facilitate my every whim at all, there are canonical references to Chimeras in the Heresy, something that makes sense as opposed to your pretty poor strawman argument to discredit and mock my opinion.

You don't have to shout "StRaWmAn" because I made a comparison, dude. 

As I've mentioned, if you want to use Chimera models, go ahead... The Chimera has been described as being the net result of combining a LOT of different designs of APC throughout a lengthy period of time, throughout the galaxy (I'm paraphrasing here)  so it is feasible that something analogous to the model you have would be in use.

It's just that GW/FW aren't going to expressly include it in a list. Even less so when the list is for Imperialis Militia, a non-standardised MILITIA force, as opposed to a regimented and formalised army. 

Now that things like the Cargo-8 exist as models, it;s cool that they are acknowledged directly as it's actually a model of some kind of repurposed industrial vehicle. That's the kind of thing that people get absolutely stoked over if you prefix it with "Rogue Trader era" ... That said, if you want to just use Chimeras instead of Cargo-8s because you want your force to look a little more militarised, why not? Chimeras and Rhinos aren;t a massive amount different and the list facilitates the use of Rhinos is some cases. There's a heap of super permissive things you can dude to use pretty much whatever model you want. 

Edited April 21, 2023 by Stitch5000

[NemoVonUtopia]

Could Chimeras or Tauroxes be used as Cargo-8 with the armoured container rule? The weapons would not be too accurate though.

[Ripper.McGuirl]

7 hours ago, Stitch5000 said:

I'd have jumped in there if there were rules for bretonians and the Commandos at Normandy, but those things don't actually exist during the HH period either. 

You could pretty easily make a Brettonian army, actually haha

[Ripper.McGuirl]

1 hour ago, NemoVonUtopia said:

Could Chimeras or Tauroxes be used as Cargo-8 with the armoured container rule? The weapons would not be too accurate though.

I’d say it was fine, personally. I think the cargo 8s are bigger, but who cares?

[Petitioner's City]

4 hours ago, Stitch5000 said:

If you want to use Chimeras, just do it. You can, you imagined it. It's your game. GW doesn't have to write you a PDF permission slip. 

 

This!

 

People really forget how free the game can be when you are just aiming at having fun :) heck even FW mention this!

 

 

 

 

And soon I'm sure Panoptica, ME, or the author of the wonderful late first edition "purple army book" will provide us with some chimeras aimed at standard narrative, campaign and matched play, anyway :)

Edited April 21, 2023 by Petitioner's City

[SlickSamos]

For pick up store games the open play thing doesn't always work and some folks only have time to do an event once a year due to work, so can't even do pick up games etc...  So I don't think saying just play X completely solves it.  As such Forge World / Games Workshop should be called out that is a bit that they didn't include those rules.

[Gorgoff]

6 hours ago, lansalt said:

 

Chimeras appear in several HH books, like Descent of Angels

Thanks! Those are from the books I never read. 

Funny. Seems to be the only place the authors can finally sneak in their own real opinion about those hideous models. 

5 hours ago, Stitch5000 said:

" ... That said, if you want to just use Chimeras instead of Cargo-8s because you want your force to look a little more militarised, why not? Chimeras and Rhinos aren;t a massive amount different and the list facilitates the use of Rhinos is some cases. There's a heap of super permissive things you can dude to use pretty much whatever model you want. 

That is indeed good idea 

5 hours ago, NemoVonUtopia said:

Could Chimeras or Tauroxes be used as Cargo-8 with the armoured container rule? The weapons would not be too accurate though.

Switching the weapon on Chimeras is pretty easy though. It is a good fit actually. Even the number of models which fits in is the same. 

3 hours ago, Ripper.McGuirl said:

You could pretty easily make a Brettonian army, actually haha

Haha yes. There was a drawing in a past 40k rulebook which showed some kind of Knight on a horse with an imperial eagle on his helmet and some technical gibbons on the aide of his head which reminded me instantly of space Bretonnians.

3 hours ago, Ripper.McGuirl said:

I’d say it was fine, personally. I think the cargo 8s are bigger, but who cares?

Precisely. 

For me it is a stand in for a lot of models. And tbh the Militia is an army for customisation anyway. I recommend doing it 

[Hfran Morkai]

There are definitely ways to do it.

 

However it's how *I* feel about the Militia list, Leman Russ, Baneblades, fine but Chimeras apparently not (doesn’t really support the less standardised idea).

 

And yes, hopefully most people I'd play against would be happy to play with me using Chimeras but some wouldn't and I don't think it'd necessarily be welcome at official GW events. With the RRP of a Chimera being £35 (what I used to pay for a Land Raider) it's not cheap to then have someone refuse to let you play it.

 

Ideal world GW would have released a more open set of rules like the vehicle design rules of old (pretty sure some of the fan projects did this) where they give examples for vehicle size etc and let your imagination run wild. Alas they didn't.

 

I'll possibly still look at a small force but we'll see. I do like the idea I've seen of bikers as cavalry.

[Doghouse]

It does say in the foreword that the rules are open to change so if enough people make their feelings known to GW it's possible the PDF could get FAQ'd to include them.

[SkimaskMohawk]

13 minutes ago, Doghouse said:

It does say in the foreword that the rules are open to change so if enough people make their feelings known to GW it's possible the PDF could get FAQ'd to include them.

 

That's an optimistic take to say the least lol. 30k notoriously lacked any real FAQ support for it's last few years, and that's unfortunately bled into this edition. 

[Harrowmaster]

Here's how it impacts my militia army: 

• I'm no longer running warrior elite and survivors of a dark age, I'm running legacy of the great crusade and armoury of old night. I can compensate for the LD drop with discipline masters  but I need the BS 4 and the improved weapons. 
• My command cadre was equipped with heavy stubbers (modelled as hot shot volley guns), this unit will need to be entirely re-built. 
• My ogryns (represented by ambots) will be left on the shelf as they can't take power weapons anymore (barring the one on the boss but I only have 4 minis rn). 
• The carnodon I put a lot of work into is no longer playable. 
• The loss of russ squadrons is not a big deal as the battle cannon changes mean I'll only use the annihilator anyway. 

The inclusion of field guns in elites is nice as it allows me to stack some extra firepower into the army and I'm glad multiple levy and infantry squads can be taken in the same slot now. Addition of cavalry was much needed and was probably my biggest issue with the 1.0 list. 

 

Transport options are marginally better with cargo 8s I guess which is nice, I would have liked to see at least grenadiers and command cadres get the option for a dedicated transport (even if it was just the cargo 8). 

All in all the list is a lot better than what I was expecting and I can work with it, the real bummer is the carnodon but I'm sure I can work something out with my group (should I ever get to play anytime soon). 

 

It's fantastic if you're going in without an existing army but slightly awkward with an existing force. 

[Doghouse]

3 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

That's an optimistic take to say the least lol. 30k notoriously lacked any real FAQ support for it's last few years, and that's unfortunately bled into this edition. 

 

When I started doing modern Heresy it wasn't even a thing with just a handful of us kit bashing stuff out of existing 40k models and hunting through what little material we had, yet here we are years later with a full game system with dedicated rules and plastic kits. If people start making it known on the likes of Facebook Chimeras would be appreciated they might add them or they might just be saving them for a dedicated Imperial Army book.

 

I was looking at doing some of these as allies but might have to do a dedicated army. I have a lot of bit's like Death Korps and sentinels I could now put to use.

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, Doghouse said:

When I started doing modern Heresy it wasn't even a thing with just a handful of us kit bashing stuff out of existing 40k models and hunting through what little material we had, yet here we are years later with a full game system with dedicated rules and plastic kits.

 

Sure? Theres more than there used to be, back when there was nothing at all. 

 

But, the modern GW approach is to make new rules to sell new models. The chimera didn't get a new model, so it didn't have a chance to make it into the militia list; the rough riders, emplacements, and guard infantry did and are in 1:1. If it wasn't a legacy unit (and iirc, it wasnt), it needs a new model release. 

 

You add that principle on top of their FAQ support where the contemptor is still walking around without any bulky in the face of bulky 2 militia levies and you might just be waiting another 15 years.

[Doghouse]

1 hour ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Sure? Theres more than there used to be, back when there was nothing at all. 

 

But, the modern GW approach is to make new rules to sell new models. The chimera didn't get a new model, so it didn't have a chance to make it into the militia list; the rough riders, emplacements, and guard infantry did and are in 1:1. If it wasn't a legacy unit (and iirc, it wasnt), it needs a new model release. 

 

You add that principle on top of their FAQ support where the contemptor is still walking around without any bulky in the face of bulky 2 militia levies and you might just be waiting another 15 years.

 

My point is we didn't write it off, we kept doing what we were doing regardless of GW support and kept badgering them which is why it's not just nothing at all anymore thanks to people inside Forgeworld like Will Hayes and Mark Bedford who were of the same mindset getting the ball rolling after the Badab series. 

 

Maybe it could be as simple as they didn't intend the Chimera to be available to militia? It could that there are only a few options that have ten man squads and everything else focuses on physically larger or numerous units so beyond Survivors of the Dark Age there isn't a need.  

 

I understand where you are coming from saying they are only making rules for new models because I am cynical of modern GW as well but objectively that has always been the case since they started Warhammer back in 1983. But in this instance they also included stuff we might already own, the Russ and Ogryns are older kits and the likes of the guard models for example have been available for decades in one form or another. Yes you could buy the new stuff but that is the reason we get editions of games of all of the main systems, you could carry on using your last edition army or buy the brand new sparkly hotness but the push is always going to be to get us to buy more stuff. 

 

I personally don't think the intention of this PDF is to purely sell models in this instance as I don't think there are enough Heresy militia players for this to appeal to, to me I think it's one of least cynical releases I have seen from GW in ages and it's free. The options this list provide have gone down really well with the majority of people I have spoken to but again that is just my personal experience. To me it feels more like the days of the old Citadel Journals.

 

[lansalt]

I think the point of the Militia rules is to allow players to do anything they want, except a conventional 40k-style IG army similar to the Imperial Army as it appears in the novels.

They really want 30k and 40k armies to not just play different, but also to not look the same at all. It's to me a very clear design principle they also apply to Mechanicum/AdMech and the rest of the factions, including marines.

 

[OttoVonAwesome]

I feel like the list really failed to take advantage of the current ranges of miniatures. Not just chimera's and Tuaroxes and Leman Russes with sponsons but the Ogryn's are sad. Can't make proper Bullgryns or H-Grade Servitor Ogryn's despite them being mentioned right there on the side bar fluff. They give you the ability to make a whole Ogryn army but without any of the variety of the Ogryn kits thus making the endeavor pointless due to the high cost in points of them and lack of any real punch. 

 

Other necromunda kits could have had better representation as well, Stub cannons, man portable heavy weapons, special weapon squads without those options can only use like 7 guys from each kit even less from some of them.

 

And then theres stuff like Beasthandlers, hilarious unit would be super fun but why in the 9 hells is it 50 points for 3 guys with no beasts then 8 points per guy again before the cost of the beast and they have basic stats and just pistols and they want you to pay like 2 points for a lasgun brining them to the cost of tactical marine all before buying the accompanying beast. 30 points for a naked Ogryn? Really? They'll stack up well against terminators for sure right? Recon squads brilliant. 50 points for 5 dudes with shotguns and then 5 points per extra guy? Oh wait I can upgrade them to snipers for only 10 points thats not too bad oh wait it's only 5 guys and getting the other 5 lascarbines costs another 10. I don't get it.

 

At least the cavalry is cheap and decent but for some strange reason there's no taser lance and you can only have 1 melta lance but you can make something from the Cult Jackals kit so that's pretty cool. 9-10 points per model for a little shooty outrider unit with a special isn't too bad.

 

I feel like GW doesn't want the list to stand alone and had no real interest in making it despite it's potential to drive sales of older kits or else it just would have had more to it. Could have been alot more fun but as is I'm only ever gonna field any of these units as Allies to one of the main lists and many of the units in it not at all (R.I.P. Ogryns and anything third line so all of thier transports).

Edited April 22, 2023 by OttoVonAwesome