HH 2.0 Blood Angels Elite Units to good for the points?

[König]

I'm still fairly new to Warhammer 30k. I play regularly with the same group of friends since 1 Year.

I play Sons of Horus, while he plays Blood Angels.

 

My question or problem is that I always feel like I'm losing and only win games through lucky dice rolls.

I feel like my units are much more expensive than his elite units in terms of points/performance.

The only thing that works somewhat well are Terminators or Justaerin.

But I can't just send Terminators onto the field, can I?

I think that would be a bit boring.

 

For example, a 10-man squad of Dawnbreakers with spears, Rent 5, and AP3 costs 275 points with a 2+ armor save.

My alternative Reaver Aggressor Squad with Lightning claws costs 475 points with only a 3+ armor save.

And the claws are only rending on a 3+ and AP3. So despite investing 200 more points, I lose the duel.

Even a 5-man squad of Justaerin costs 275 points and loses against the 10 x Dawnbreaker with the same points.

In addition, the Dawnbreakers have jump packs and can simply choose their fights.

 

Example 2: Angel Tears with assault cannons. 10 men cost 390 points.

The only thing I could shoot against them, other than a squad of 7 Justaerin, would be veterans,

but they are much more expensive to have the same firepower,

and would probably not survive the reaction when they enter close combat.

 

My problem is also that he has Jump Packs on almost all of his units and can therefore choose his fights,

while I can't get close to him. Of course, he doesn't run his Angels Tears into my Justaerin,

but rather shoots down my Marines/Dispoilers/Reavers.

 

I already load everything into Rhinos or drop them, but that doesn't help because Rhinos are often shot down,

for example, by the 40 shots from the assault cannons, or when dropping,

the interception reaction kills a large part of my army that is not Justaerin.

 

He also has a squad of Crimson Paladins with Raldoron running around where I need my Abaddon Squad.

 

We play 2.6k points, and usually it goes like this:

Raldoron Squad>Abaddon Squad with Justaerin;

Angels Tears>everything except Justaerin;

Dawnbreaker>everything except Justaerin.

 

Any ideas on what I can do as Sons of Horus against Angels Tears and Dawnbreaker with Jetpacks?

 

Thanks and regards

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by König

[bushman101]

Angel's Tears are frail. Only 1W and 3+ save. Bolter fire or any other ranged attack works fine.

Dawnbreakers are really good. 2+ save, 2 W can be rough to take out. Reach will ensure they win versus regular troops. Plasma Support squads come to mind. Or mass shooting 

[Starlight_Wolf]

I've found Blood Angels to be a difficult match up as SoH as well, not run into special units besides the jet pack Dreads (Sure someone will have the name to hand :P as I only came across them this week).

 

From what I've seen/read a Master of Signals is a good way to disrupt their deep strike capabilities, I believe there's also a Librarian discipline which creates difficult terrain to slow them down.

 

In terms of units, there are Reaver Aggressor squads (Reavers with Jet packs) which you could field, though I tend to find Blood Angels hit like a truck and off set SoH's Trait, as they get +1 wound to our - 1 Strength, so avoiding combat is a better way around it or bring something solid ( A contemptor or two, or Leviathan have been my main go to's in that respect) that he struggles to wound, to either tar pit or chew through the squad.

 

Honestly, unique units for SoH don't have the mobility to trump BA's Mobile lethality, so personally I'd look to either reduce his mobility and pour firepower into targets of opportunity or try to lure the more troublesome squads away with something fast moving (speeders or bikes)?

 

Apologies this isn't likely greatly helpful, as I'm coming off the back of a turn three near tabling (called due to time, though I had 2 recon Squads, 2 Rhinos, a Spartan and 5 man Cataphractii Squad, left in the face of his entire army minus a scout squad) I'm also trying to get my head around the match up. 

 

It may be worth sitting down with your friend and talking through lists, or even playing a mirror game (he plays your army, you play his) to get a feel for his models and help you identify some flaws or weak spots that you can take forward. Don't get me wrong being in a position of being powerless and having every play you make nullified isn't fun, as can be evidenced in your post, but if your friend is willing to do this with you hopefully you'll both get better games out of it, as it is a horrible match up to be on the wrong side of (not the worst I'm sure, but from my limited experience that's what I've seen)

[SkimaskMohawk]

Blood Angels have some very good units, and their Legion trait stacks up super nicely into SoH.

 

But the reason why BA have such good units is because their whole Legion bonus requires them to charge, and their rite gets ruined by a master of signal. And raldoran is basically just a beat stick. 

 

Dawnbreakers are intensely cheap for their gear. But those 10 spear guys average 4 wounds into fist cataphractii (which only kills one if you allocate the first wound to the seargent and then transition off); the cataphractii kill 2 back with fists. The breakers will win over time, but they worth a good 50 points more; equivalent points have them lose each round. Their biggest weakness is how vulnerable they are to shooting and pinning. Las is already the most popular heavy weapon, and both it and the MM cut through their armour and cause instant death.

 

Angel tears actually...aren't that good. They're annoying for sure, but they share "glass cannon marine problem" with every 1w 3+ armour elite unit. Their output is high, but every casualty bleeds a bunch of points. Anything that puts a lot of saves into them kills them just as easy as any normal Marines. 

 

A big issue new players have, and it seems that you've fallen into, is wanting to play with the special units regardless if theyre actually good or not.

• Reavers are basically slightly buffed base Veterans (and pay accordingly), but pay a lot more for all their special weapons; people don't really use veterans, and reavers are arguably worse due to their expensive melee and less ranged options.
• Justaerin are basically a slightly buffed command squad, but pay a solid 80 points more for a unit of 5. You get an extra attack per model and...that's pretty much it. Stubborn and higher leadership is trumped by the banner; furious charge is moot in most cases as you want fists or hammers on the unit. Banestrikes are a nice bonus, but invite reactions (and want you to take a big, super expensive unit). Note how equivalent points of justaerin lose a duel to dawnbreakers, but equivalent normal cataphractii...don't.

Both the units are honestly a bit of a trap. You can get a much better return by running equivalent loadouts from vanilla vets and cataphractii. Or by shooting the blood Angels with good guns on good units. Scorpii, sniper recons, HSS, javelins, support squads, vets with snipers, contemptors with gravis melta, box dreads with double las. All these solve the problem of footslog Marines wanting to charge.

[Fallen11]

Say to you friend to bring Angel + 40 dawnbreakers and some other stuff that can drop pod(dreadnought/javelins/assault marines...) and use his ROW Day of the revelation. Basically come down with everything(there is even that nice congo line expoit if you don't land exactly where you want), pin some stuff in the process(bonus points if there is night fight), charge and more or less wipe oposition. Also, you might take callidus assasin, so that if there is some unit with good overwatch, assasin can go first, they can't react to him, and then rest of your guys can safely come and wreck faces in cc.
Ofcourse give dawnbreakers meltabombs so they can wreck dreadnoughts and vehicles :)

[Xenith]

I'll contrast you with a newer BA player at my club that thinks BA are useless, they don't have a strong trait and their units are weak because I keep killing them, or he keeps sending them against the wrong targets and they have no impact, or he overestimates their abilities and they deepstrike near me to get intercepted off the table, or he isn't using cover effectively. 

 

You can buy the most expensive golf club in the world, but it'll still be bad when you try to play cricket with it.

 

I think that's what you're doing here - comparing SoH units 1:1 with BA units. Yes, the BA ones might be better in melee...but that's the Blood Angels thing. They're meant to be that way. Sending in expensive claws against 2+ save models. Remember the 2+ save is very strong in HH so you need dedicated tools to crack it. 

 

Dont think of it as rock v rock, but as rock paper scissors. Yes, that 390pt Angels Tears unit will chew most things up...but they lose to a 120pt Scorpius. They lose to a 105pt telepathy librarian that turns off their reaction fire and pins them whan they try to shoot you. They lose to 10 a 300pt lascannon HSS unit with augury. 

 

Sending your generalist legion units in to fight melee specialists doesn't work. Soften them up a bit first. 

 

Conversely, I play Alpha Legion, and frequently see other AL players stealing SoH units like Justaerin and Chieftans as they're better than the AL specific units. 

Edited April 21, 2023 by Xenith

[König]

Thanks for the tips.

I will make my army more versatile by including some veterans and a melter support squad.

In general, I will also add more shooting to the mix.

I'll also try out vets with sniper rifles.

I'll report back here on what worked and what didn't.

Just as a heads up, if anyone has any further suggestions for improvement, here's my current army that I'm struggling with.

 

++ Crusade Force Organisation Chart (LA -  XVI: Sons of Horus) [2,600Pts] ++

+ Expanded Army Lists +

Expanded Army List Profiles:: Exemplary Units On, Legacy Units On

+ Allegiance: +

  XVI: Sons of Horus

Allegiance: Traitor

+ Rite of War: +

Rite of War: The Long March (SoH)

 

+ HQ: [1,015Pts] +

Centurion [105Pts]: Librarian [45Pts], Psychic Discipline: Telepathy
. Librarian [60Pts]: Artificer Armour, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Refractor Field
. . Bolt Pistol
. . Force Weapon: Force Staff

 

Centurion, Cataphractii  [135Pts]: (Chaplain) Master craft one weapon to represent a Crozius Arcanum, Chaplain [35Pts], Chosen by Dark Gods (Traitor only), Warlord
. Chaplain [15Pts]: Banestrike Combi-Bolter, Cataphractii Terminator Armour, Legiones Astartes (X), Thunder Hammer [15Pts]

 

Ezekyle Abaddon [775Pts]: Cataphractii Terminator Armour, Combi-Bolter, Cthonic power claw, Grenade Harness, Master of the Legion, Paragon Blade
. Justaerin Terminator Squad [525Pts]
. . Justaerin [65Pts]: Banestrike Combi-Bolter, Thunder Hammer [15Pts]
. . Justaerin [65Pts]: Banestrike Combi-Bolter, Thunder Hammer [15Pts]
. . Justaerin [65Pts]: Banestrike Combi-Bolter, Thunder Hammer [15Pts]
. . Justaerin [50Pts]: Banestrike Combi-Bolter, Carsoran Power Axe
. . Justaerin [50Pts]: Banestrike Combi-Bolter, Carsoran Power Axe
. . Justaerin [50Pts]: Banestrike Combi-Bolter, Carsoran Power Axe
. . Justaerin w/Heavy Weapon (1 in 5) [75Pts]: Carsoran Power Axe, Multi-Melta [25Pts]
. . Justaerin w/Legion Standard [80Pts]: Thunder Hammer [15Pts]

 

+ Elites: [500Pts] +

Apothecarion Detachment [90Pts]: Legiones Astartes (X)
. Apothecary [45Pts]: Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Narthecium, Power Armour
. . Chainsword: Chainsword
. Apothecary [45Pts]: Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Narthecium, Power Armour
. . Chainsword: Chainsword

 

Contemptor Dreadnought Talon [410Pts]
. Contemptor Dreadnought [195Pts]: Atomantic Deflector, Combi-Bolter, Gravis Lascannon [20Pts], Gravis Power Fist  with in-built ranged weapon
. Contemptor Dreadnought [215Pts]: Atomantic Deflector, Gravis Lascannon [20Pts], Gravis Lascannon [20Pts]

 

+ Troops: [330Pts] +

Despoiler Squad [175Pts]: Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Power Armour
.   Legion Despoiler Sergeant [22Pts]: Heavy Chainsword [2Pts], Plasma Pistol [10Pts], Power Armour
. 8x  Despoilers (collective) [96Pts]: 8x Bolt Pistol, 8x Heavy Chainsword [16Pts]
. Despoiler w/ Options [22Pts]: Bolt Pistol, Heavy Chainsword [2Pts], Legion Vexilla [10Pts]
. Rhino Transport [35Pts]: Smoke Launchers, Twin-linked Bolter

 

Tactical Squad [155Pts]: Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Power Armour
.  Legion Tactical Sergeant [10Pts]: Bolt Pistol, Bolter, Power Armour
. . Power Weapon [10Pts]: Carsoran Power Axe
. 7x  Legionaries (collective) [70Pts]: 7x Bolt Pistol, 7x Bolter
. Legionary w/ Options: [20Pts]: Bolt Pistol, Bolter, Legion Vexilla [10Pts]
. Legionary w/ Options: [10Pts]: Bolt Pistol, Bolter
. Rhino Transport [35Pts]: Smoke Launchers, Twin-linked Bolter

 

+ Heavy Support: [755Pts] +

Land Raider Spartan [445Pts]
. Land Raider Spartan [445Pts]: 2x Lascannon Array, Flare Shield [50Pts], Hull (Front) Mounted Twin-linked Lascannon [25Pts], Legiones Astartes (X), Multi-Melta [20Pts], Smoke Launchers

 

Leviathan Dreadnought Talon [310Pts]
. Leviathan [310Pts]: Atomantic Deflector, Cyclonic Melta Lance [20Pts], Leviathan Siege Claw, Phosphex Discharger [20Pts]
. . 2x Heavy Flamers: 2x Heavy Flamer

++ Total: [2,600Pts] ++

 

 

[Razorblade]

Blood Angel's Elite Unitsare not that good honestly. 

Your Abaddon-squad should absolutely demolish anything it touches given that neither Dawnbreakers nor Paladins have Weaponry that can reliably hurt them. 

The same goes for Dreadnoughts.

As for your list, I think there is little wrong with it but here are some possible improvements: 

1. Heavy Chainswords on Despoilers, Plasma Pistols in general and Carsorans on anything but Terminators are a bad deal. Consider replacing those with artificer on the troop Sergeants. 

2. I would never run a Contemptor without the meleeweapon, you just give up too much.

3. Your list may struggle against units like HSS and Angel's Tears that have strong shooting reactions, as you have little masses anti-Infantry shooting and a lot of juicy targets. 

Consider a Scorpius or a Volkite HSS to deal with those kinds of targets 

[Marshal Mittens]

Shoot his good stuff to death? 

 

Lascannons + Aug scanners, Plasma guns for up close, even multi-meltas against infantry. 

 

Contemptor Dreadnaughts will also eat his units, if they have a fist. 

 

Blood Angels thing is being really good at melee and having jump packs. 

 

They are a legion who REALLY wants to charge you and melee fight you. That's their thing. 

 

If you wanna melee fight Legions like Blood Angels or World Eaters, you're gonna have a pretty rough time.

 

But you can use a lot of tools to shoot up his fancy units before they can close to attack you, making the fight a lot easier when it comes to melee. 

[Xenith]

Looks good! I think the justaerin unit will kill most stuff and doesn't need the chaplain rerolls, maybe the chappy could be in power armour and go with the despoliers? 

 

If you're willing to put the Levi in reserves or get it a pod, or drop it entirely, you might as well take the Long March Rite which has minimal/no downsides and gives everything better movement.

 

Personally, I try to spend as little on HQ's as possible, but that's with Alpha legion where melee is to be avoided, I'd try and get another Line unit in there, maybe the above mentioned recon squad. 135 pts is decent, and could be gained with chopping a few things from your list. 

[Mandragola]

On 4/27/2023 at 9:06 AM, Marshal Mittens said:

Shoot his good stuff to death? 

This, exactly. Shoot him, and do it from far away.

 

I see you're planning a melta support squad. Unfortunately those are one of the worse value units in heresy, costing more than a squad armed with lascannons. They also have to go close to the blood angels to shoot them and this is terrible. Worst case is that the BAs will just jump into melee with them or shoot you with assault cannons from outside your range to return fire.

 

Basically the good counters to this kind of list are contemptor dreads punching them and lascannons. Instant kill those dawnbreakers from the other side of the table, not up close where they can use reactions to move around and stuff.

 

A key part of playing against assault armies is to accept that some of them will reach you. Make sure you're the one deciding which units he charges. You want those dawnbreakers to hit cheap stuff like tactical marines (so long as you don't lose all your Line) and then you want to slaughter them in your next shooting phase.

 

Also don't use rhinos to defend against this stuff. They're useless as protection and just bleed kill points in games where that matters. 

 

It's true that 30k units aren't balanced, unfortunately. Some of the ones that come with jump packs baked in seem very cheap. But there's very little that can't be dealt with using lascannons and contemptor fists.

[SkimaskMohawk]

11 minutes ago, Mandragola said:

They're useless as protection and just bleed kill points in games where that matters. 

 

That's basically every mission in the book lol. Though Last Man Standing does reward MSU, despite being a kill-count style objective.

[Xenith]

1 hour ago, Mandragola said:

But there's very little that can't be dealt with using lascannons and contemptor fists.

 

True, unfortunately!

 

I have a 10 man melta squad built, however they're cripplingly expensive, and more expensive than 10x melta seekers who have about the same life expectancy, however the seekers get infiltrate and scout to get them into position, while you need something to transport the melta tacs.