To Scour, or Not to Scour?

[LemartestheLost]

I know many of us are anxiously awaiting Dan Abnett’s TEATD Vol. 2 (maybe 3 as well, who the feth knows?) and that once Dan puts a bow on the Heresy, a lot of people are going to want BL to pursue a series following the events of the Scouring. I personally am not a fan of this idea, as it feels like so much of the “mystery” of that age has been explained or clarified by the Heresy series and I think the setting as a whole loses a bit of charm when it’s all spelled out. 
Not to mention the fact that I think it would be a suboptimal use of BL’s current resources. The DoF books need to be wrapped up, as well as probably 7-8 other trilogies/sequels that people are dying to read for 40k. After the editing woes and mixed reception of the Dawn of Fire series, I’m not sure I trust Kyme and Co. to start another series right after the marathon that was the Heresy just yet. The last thing I want is another Beast Arises fiasco.

 

I’d love to hear y’all’s thoughts on the matter!

Cheers,

LTL

[Scribe]

I dont think it needs to be a series by any means, but easy one off's could be done. The Cage, for example. A few books to see how Rob picks up the pieces. The eventual Codex show down.

 

There is stuff there to do, but I agree, it doesnt need to be yet another poorly controlled series.

[LemartestheLost]

1 minute ago, Scribe said:

easy one off's could be done. The Cage, for example. A few books to see how Rob picks up the pieces. The eventual Codex show down.

 

There is stuff there to do, but I agree, it doesnt need to be yet another poorly controlled series.

I would be A OK if they went this route, with 5-6 novels covering the main events of the era and leaving it at that!

[Scribe]

Just now, LemartestheLost said:

I would be A OK if they went this route, with 5-6 novels covering the main events of the era and leaving it at that!

 

Yep. I could do with a few novels here or there, but I'm certainly not interested in another series like the HH ever (quite literally ever) again. 

[Doghouse]

I feel the same way, they should leave it alone. Originally the gaps were left intentionally so that the fans could speculate and create their own lore, like you say it is removing the mystery.  A good example is the 2nd and 11th Legions, we have decades of speculation, fan theories and even people making their own armies, I very much doubt this would be the case if they had just named and shamed them before moving on.

I completely appreciate the need for exploration of the setting for some and I understand why they use the lens of the unreliable narrator but for me it makes the universe so much smaller if everything is spelt out in black and white.  I can't stand the modern progression of the lore, they need to leave somethings alone for those of us sand-boxers with imaginations.

[Roomsky]

They certainly shouldn't do it like the Heresy series, but quite selfishly, I do want to see it. Not because I care about X or Y battle, but because I really want to see the Imperium in the immediate aftermath of the Heresy. Even if they stretch that out into an overlong series, if they're actual books and not combat porn I'm super on board. Show me the remaining loyalists struggle to find an identity in the new status quo, show me the whole kerfuffle about the Index Astartes being rolled out. It's ripe for good stories and TBH I'm not super worried about ruining the mystique of it anymore - because it's already be ruined by the Heresy proper. The cat is firmly out of the bag, may as well roll with it.

 

(I'd also like to have a book with Fulgrim ganking Guilliman that isn't in a Dark Imperium novel.)

 

Structurally, I want ALL novels to get a banner showing what time and place they're in, and for multi-author series to be phased out. Give me a Scouring banner under which Abnett can write about Guillimans reforms, French can write about the Iron Cage, and someone else can write about Caliban exploding. Give me a Psychic Awakening banner for adaptions of those tales, and more Horror, and more Crime, and a Dark Millenium banner, and an Imperial History banner for a Badab War and Age of Apostasy series.

 

Is it likely? Well, obviously not, but BL continues to underestimate the appeal of their works beyond the tabletop crowd. Get ambitious with it!

[Sothalor]

It seems almost inevitable that there will be a Scouring series at some point, given the success and longevity of the Horus Heresy from a financial perspective.

 

And let's face it, it's not like there's a perceived need amongst GW management to improve the planning and coordination or anything for a long-running, multi-author series. The lesson they've taken from everything is that they can spread their arsecheeks, take steaming :cuss:-squirts on their customers, and still sell out of all available stock.

 

We have only ourselves to blame.

[wecanhaveallthree]

You vill read zee Scouring, you vill buy zee the Special Edition, and you vill be happy!

 

Primarchs make money. The end of the Heresy frees up most of the Primarchs (with some slightly dead exceptions) to not only be free to bash into each other, but will absolutely have to, since they're playing galactic tag. Now it's time for the Loyalists to chase the Traitors! What fun. The Scouring is a tailor-made arena with no stakes and few interesting stories in which the Primarchs can safely flail at each other without consequence.

 

The only thing I'm interested in seeing in a Scouring book is how the Emperor-less Imperium is going to 'encourage' all those worlds that either declared for Horus or who took the opportunity to quietly stop paying their tithes to peacefully return to the fold. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the Scouring turned into a Great Crusade 2.0, now with more Chaos.

 

It's like looking into a dark mirror of the Star Wars EU. I can literally see the 'secret projects' and 'hidden threats' emerging. I can feel the Sun Crusher coming. I can feel the Vong expy.  I feel like a madman. The doom is coming! Dooooom!

 

I'm open to being pleasantly surprised, of course, but my expectations are low.

[Felix Antipodes]

It is no secret in this forum that I’ve been a Scouring booster for a long time.  Over time though (and seeing how the HH, Beast, and even more recent efforts like Dark Imperium have panned out) I’ve mellowed a bit.  I still want the Scouring covered but not as a linear series.

 

My preference would be making it a setting, with a solid spine of books by ONE author, which dealt with (or sign-posted to) the big beats of the era from the immediate aftermath of the HH to the “final” battle where someone calls job done (even though it’s not).  Then other authors cherry pick the stories they want to tell within the setting, whether it is the bolter porn battles driving the remains of the heretic forces into the Eye of Terror, the war to retake Mars and/or other Forge Worlds, the drip feed loses of the loyalist Primarchs, etc.

 

The one thing they should definitely keep vague though is the Second Founding numbers.  As @Scribe and @Doghouse have said this was initially left vague to enable us to create our own Chapters and exercise our imaginations.  There are plenty of known 2nd Founding Chapters in the fluff to play with without giving an exact number and spoiling someone’s carefully constructed home brew Chapter.

 

One of the issues this topic always throws up is ‘nothing really happened (besides the 2nd Founding)’ so it will be ‘100 books of bolter porn’.  I think there is plenty to keep it interesting; the slow transition from the Emperor’s Imperium to the IoM we see by the time of the Beast series, the rise of the Ecclesiarchy, etc, but what would other fraters like to see covered?

[Scribe]

I'd like the book where Dorn dies. Also has Corax departed already into the Webway? Then I would like to see how the Blood Angels account for their new issue following the Heresy and if we dont get it in the SoT, I want to hear it from the Emperors lips, that he tried to cheat the gods, and lost. :D

[Roomsky]

3 hours ago, Sothalor said:

It seems almost inevitable that there will be a Scouring series at some point, given the success and longevity of the Horus Heresy from a financial perspective.

 

And let's face it, it's not like there's a perceived need amongst GW management to improve the planning and coordination or anything for a long-running, multi-author series. The lesson they've taken from everything is that they can spread their arsecheeks, take steaming :cuss:-squirts on their customers, and still sell out of all available stock.

 

We have only ourselves to blame.

 

Well, we do seem to be safe from onslaught of e-shorts and audio-shorts from that one period. It's a small victory, but I'll take it.

[b1soul]

Treat 30K from late Unification Wars to Scouring as a sandbox setting

 

It's easier for disinterested people not to buy or read novels in that sandbox...and keep whatever mystery they want in their heads

 

It's harder for interested people to write their own novels 

[Nagashsnee]

Badad, reigh of blood, nova terra interregnum, age of apostasy, moirae schism. So many juice periods to explore and those are just he big ones.   The scouring is a very weird choice to go to, it has no central plot, its actors are scattered and mostly self contained and much of it was copied over to 40k anyhow. 

 

Oh look G man is on terra setting things in order and having dealings with the various branches of the imperium. He need to rally the scattered Imperial forces and strike out to re take grou...yawn.  Like dont jump on me i know they are differences but for me the been there done that feel is there. Likewise with more and more primarchs centering the 40k setting around themselves there is again overlap.  

 

If they want more 30k they should give us more 30k. The number of factions/legions who got treated badly by the HH numbered series has not changed, there is HUGE scope to go back and add things in to fix much of their mistakes.  Its like with the end of the siege we will have the ending spoiled, nothing will change.  With the 30k game coming out with new black books they is plenty of scope to fix old mistakes, tie in to product placement and give the people what they want.  A kelbor hall dark mechanicum book that sets up a new mini or two for 30k/40k chaos/other while also showing us the birth of the Dark Mech and the chief architect for the Mechanicum having a civil war would certainly tickle my pickle.    Maybe the Iron Hands can finally get a book showing them as a legion with a primarch and set up a new character or two for the game.  :cuss: epic 30k is coming out do something there, a IG solar auxilia / imperial militia book would sell just as well as any 40k IG book. 

 

 

[apologist]

As with anything, it's more down to the execution than anything else. A book set in the Great Scouring could be wonderful, providing insight on the nascent Imperium, setting the foundations for the gradual decline into superstition and ignorance, and exploring the complex politics of humanity without the Emperor. It's a staging ground both for well-established events such as the death of Konrad Curze, the Iron Cage, setting up the Legion Wars, and the loss of Caliban. 

 

It's also ground zero for a lot of Imperial factions beyond the Astartes. We could see the foundation of the Imperial Guard, the creation of the High Lords, and doubtless dozens of other fascinating top-level stories – not least how Space Marines are treated after the events of the Great Heresy.

 

At its best, a book, trilogy or series could be a fantastic insight into the early Imperium. How does it differ from the 'modern' setting, or from the Golden Era preceding the Heresy?

 

At its worst, it could gloss over all of these and be fairly mundane and straightforward.

 

+++

 

The biggest argument against it is 'opportunity cost'. Would I rather have book(s) on the Scouring, or the Macharian Crusade, or the Badab War, or the Nova Terra Interregnum, or the alien resurgence of the Time of Rebirth, or the War of the False Primarch..? There lies a question.

 

To be honest, the background is so full of rich opportunities, I'd rather just see lots of books on individual, smaller events. Not least, I'd prefer to see a little more effort devoted to xenos. The few eldar, ork, necron etc. books I've read have been really enjoyable. It'd be lovely to see a Gaunt's Ghost-quality series about two non-human factions going at it.

[theSpirea]

I personally don't have a preference for what BL is going to tackle after the HH. I'd rather read a good book about an event I don't care much about than a bad about an event I'm interested in.

What I don't want, is another poorly planned, multi-author series with no clear goal. If anything, I prefer the sandbox approach. Give me a trilogy by one author that sets the scene. Not a product placement like Indomitus or Dark Imperium, but something closer to Watchers of Throne. And then let individual authors have fun with it. 

[darkhorse0607]

I'd be down for it for threeish reasons.

 

1) I want to see the cleanup. Will most people find this extremely boring (at least the mainline "I want bolters go boom" folks)? Yes. I still want to see it though. Give me a book that starts with the Ultramarines coming in system for the Siege, realizing how absolutely f'd everything is, gearing up and preparing for the fighting and carries through to post-siege operations. I don't even care if there's not a single fight scene in the entire book. Unpopular opinion for here, but I love Unremembered Empire because it's focused on something other than the fighting (yes there are many issues with the book, I'm not denying that), but it shows how life is when it's not on the battlefield and I would like that for at least one or two books post-Siege as everyone starts to shift. Other books hitting the key points would be fine as well, but I don't need another 50+ book series. Make it good, hit the high points, move on.

 

2) The other reason is that I don't know that I would be terribly excited for the alternate options. Yes, I would like a Badab series, I'm still waiting for the thread where I can TED talk my plan for a trilogy based on the founding of the Grey Knights, and I would like to see The Reign of Blood/Vandires self-promotion amongst other moments in the lore. That being said, I honestly don't think we would get them, at least not anytime soon. I could easily see another series like the DoF that meanders around the new setting so GW can keep the hype up around new releases than going back and filling in the other events pre-40k, especially due to 30k (game) not being synced up well with 30k (BL) which limits how many models could be sold for those events. For example, Badab could do really well sales-wise if MKV power armor was out, or even slated to be out soon. They could tie it in with a novel series where everyone recreates those chapters for painting/gaming which would do well for sales. Until 30k (game) is caught up or at least has more options out so people could buy/GW can hype up releases to sync with BL, I don't think it is very lucrative for GW to pursue over something current-timeline.

 

3)I'll throw this in as an edit, because it's much more of a "me" afterthought, forewarning it's going to sound cheesy and overdramatic. One last reason I'd be ok with a Scouring series is that I'm not sure I'm ready to move on yet. For better or worse, the Heresy and it's characters have been a significant part of my life, through all the problems, career changes, life changes, mental health struggles and everything else. I don't know that on a personal level I'm ready to let them go or move on yet

 

Sorry if that just sounds like rambling. I haven't had my caffeine yet.

Edited May 4, 2023 by darkhorse0607

[DukeLeto69]

Not read whole thread yet but I would prefer different era settings rather than series. As per above, banners on the book saying what era/setting the story takes place in.

 

So if one of the authors fancies writing a scouring novel or even a mini series, great as you have a setting for it.

 

Similarly Age of Apostasy. Or Badab War or War of the False Primarch or The Abyssal Crusade etc etc

 

 

[Moonreaper666]

On 5/3/2023 at 2:19 PM, Doghouse said:

I feel the same way, they should leave it alone. Originally the gaps were left intentionally so that the fans could speculate and create their own lore, like you say it is removing the mystery.  A good example is the 2nd and 11th Legions, we have decades of speculation, fan theories and even people making their own armies, I very much doubt this would be the case if they had just named and shamed them before moving on.

I completely appreciate the need for exploration of the setting for some and I understand why they use the lens of the unreliable narrator but for me it makes the universe so much smaller if everything is spelt out in black and white.  I can't stand the modern progression of the lore, they need to leave somethings alone for those of us sand-boxers with imaginations.

 

Chamber at the End of Memory, a Heresy Short Story, gave all the important answers

 

Explains why the Soul Drinkers don't have Dorn's geneseed

[RikuEru]

23 hours ago, b1soul said:

Treat 30K from late Unification Wars to Scouring as a sandbox setting

 

It's easier for disinterested people not to buy or read novels in that sandbox...and keep whatever mystery they want in their heads

 

It's harder for interested people to write their own novels 

 

 

I think this would be the way to go about it. And we can only hope that BL and the authors also are a bit tired of a HUGE intercomnected series yet. (Also we did see how well it played out even with the greatest coordination efforts between the authors ever... Tho I would say they shouldcontinue to work close together and in constant contact with each other, maybe with less of a pressing release schedule like the SoT books, the various authors can actually help each other to improve and -not- re-treat the same story beats twice)

 

"Just" Scouring Era books would be quite limited, but books that can span over the whole 30k Era (for whatever topic) could give us a bit more context or (new) characters views on the change over time.

 

Also - as much as I love the Primarchs - we should move away from them a bit and tell the stories of their Second-in-Commands and other exceptional Legionnaires and Humans (of all various organisations, new or old) that picked up the pieces after the Siege.

 

Don't -directly- show us Perturabo or Dorn brooding/raging over the Iron Cage issue. Show us the perspective of their men and what it does to them.

Don't show us Guilliman writing the literal Codex, show us the supporters and critics among the various Legion officers debating this and the various Orgs of the Imperium politicking (like in Wraight's Watchers of the Throne/Inquisition books) to gain favors with potential Second Founding Chapter Masters or trying to influence where Chapters could be settled, for their own benefits and such.

 

DON'T give us big Primarch Smackdowns 2: Heretical Boogaloo.

DON'T show us Dorn's last stand in explicit detail...

DON'T show us Russ talking to his Terminator Elite how they need to find the tree of life...

DON'T show us Jaghatai riding into a Comorragh sunset...

(Or similiarly what the various Chaos Primarchs did for millenia, while seemingly chilling in the Eye of Terror.)

...or anything like that. Sure, seed some mysteries or show us the after effects of the Primarchs "leaving" and how their various Sons cope with that, both on the loyalist and traitor sides. 

 

Surely GW can not help themselves and -will- use this to leave the door open for basically every loyalist to return in the future or also hint at the yet-unreleased Traitor Primarchs.

But give us vague, unclear mysteries with open questions we can ponder...

 

Scenes from the perspective of a Primarch or direct dialogue involving them should be few and far in between. And only used for good effect, so it becomes something "special" again.

...also lessens the chance of them botching character voice or development.

[Lord Marshal]

Primarchs aplenty, copious amounts of Loyalists beating up Traitors, a direct continuation from their best selling series... I think it's nearly impossible The Scouring series doesn't happen. I wouldn't be shocked if we didn't start hearing about it only a few months (or less) after The End and The Death II.

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Lord Marshal

[Matcap86]

As other Fraters have pointed out, I'd prefer the scouring as a setting where authors get to ploink little pieces of the narrative down. Instead of another rickety editorialized series where 30 authors are being herded like cats in a general direction.

 

Stuff like the Valdor book which shows the Imperium pre great crusade but does offer some nice character and world building stuff yet remains pretty self contained. 

Edited May 7, 2023 by matcap86

[WARMASTER_]

Just to jump in on the OP question…

 

I’d like to see at least some books on the Scouring as long as it’s the same cast of authors that have been on the siege + Guymer but -Gav! But as other have said more as a setting than a timeline [Much like 40k fiction was for 30+ years] 

 

There’s some key events I’d love to see! Iron Cage, The breaking of the legions [Forming of the Chapters] The doom of Caliban, Forming of the Inquisition, Tempering of the Iron Hands etc 

 

If they’re done well by the right authors it has the chance to be something really cool! My fear is we’d get the beast arises again 

[Alpharius902]

Books I'd like to see in a Scouring setting, given that it's more or less inevitable given both the popularity of the BL series as well as GW needing more campaign material for the tabletop

• Caliban's Fall
• The campaign against Perturabo's Iron Empire, leading up to the Iron Cage
• Vulkan's hunt for Fabius
• The political maneuverings of the High Lords vs the Primarchs
• The beginnings of the Ecclesiarchy
• The Ashen Claws versus the Night Lords
• The beginnings of the various differences and splits across the Legions (ideally, the Second Founding would be a good starting hook, with everything else being a look back on what led up to it)
• The actual buildup to and casting of the Rubric
• The War for Skalathrax
• The dissolution of the Traitors as they each head for their own corners of the Eye and the galaxy at large
• The Reconquest of Mars

Everyone would ideally get a chance to pick off their own corner of the setting to mess with (for instance, ADB getting to detail stuff about Sevatar's story, while Farrer might choose to detail stuff about the faith in greater detail.) Preferably, I'd advise them to just break away from a general "Heresy" tagline and go for an "Age of Wonder" setting, stretching from the Crusade to the breaking of the Legions and allowing authors to tell whatever stories they want to across over two centuries worth of narrative playground

[Arkangilos]

Yeah, I just want it as an episodic setting, not as a serialized series. 
 

Show me the BA recovering from the death of Sanguinius, the split of the legions and how it effected them. (But not name all the successors! Leave that vague!)

 

And as others say, various battles.

[Sothalor]

Assuming they'll put out a Scouring series at some point, I'd like to see it take more cues from the Horus Heresy Character and Primarch series a la Valdor, Luther, and Sigismund, as well as of course the eponymous Primarch novels.

 

That is, rather than one nominally connected and sequential series, I think the Scouring could work better as individual, stand-alone novels covering iconic events and characters, instead of a single large overarching narrative. Frankly, that didn't work with the Heresy. It just got to be too much, too unfocused. But something like a combination of the Primarchs series with the old Space Marine Battles (at least, the good ones from each line) - each novel on a key event, each with a focused, limited perspective of its participants, used to showcase the ongoing changes within a hurt, vengeful Imperium that can never go back to before - I think there's potential there.

 

Consciously delinking the novels also provides logistical and organizational benefits. It reduces the burden on the authors and editorial team of keeping track of multi-novel and multi-author spanning storylines, character arcs, chronology, and so on (not that the Heresy is a paradigm of those qualities). It theoretically should reduce issues of "we have to put out a novel covering X before we can do Y." It helps address series-fright of "but I don't want to read 50+ books" and buy-in cost. Just read the events you find interesting.