To Scour, or Not to Scour?

[Felix Antipodes]

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned but has been on my mind.  Whatever they do, there must be equal focus on all of the loyalist nine legions.  If they are just going to make it an UM/BA/DA fest then just don’t bother.

[wecanhaveallthree]

Quote

Whatever they do, there must be equal focus on all of the loyalist nine legions. 

 

Yes, yes, I too am looking forward to Vulkan Lives Again, Older Earth and Deathfire Two: This Time It's Personal. 

 

There are perspectives that don't really have a place in the Scouring. The Iron Hands are, well, done. What's left of the Salamanders can reunite with Vulkan, I suppose, but Corax's lads aren't going to see their Primarch again. The Khan is dead (though he'll get better eventually, before immediately running off into the Webway). The Imperial Fists have to go die in the Cage, the Dark Angels have to go lose track of Caliban (they just put it down for a minute, they swear), and the Blood Angels will be back off to Baal to make Sanguinius a nice casket. 

 

That really does just leave... the Ultramarines. Guilliman has that enormous retribution force behind him, and we know he turns around quick-smart to go chase the Traitors back into the Eye with it (after breaking a few Legions, of course). 

 

And the Perpetuals. Of course.

 

Gosh, not much info really exists of that time right after the Emperor passed, does it, when Guilliman was Lord Commander. Like some kind of... unremembered empire.

[Nagashsnee]

Non marine wise you have plenty to focus on:

Mechanicum of course, the fall back of the Dark mech from Mars/traitor forge worlds into the eye. 

Splitting the Imperial Army into the Guard and Navy is a far grander/harder/longer task then breaking the legions.  Not as dramatic perhaps but purely as a task.

The founding od the various early imperial churches before anything close to a single dogma/structure/belief system takes over. 

The founding of the Inquisition, people talk about wanting to see things, i want to see the early Inquisition actually having to assert its authority on a Imperium that doesn't even know it exists.  Huge scope for this one, plus the early founders were suspect. 

Custodians...in...morning. Again huge scope for character work here. 

Traitor planets, not chaos planets, not evil planets, planets that sided with horus for very possible good reasons or because they were lied to/etc. Then we have neutral planets or ones that 'failed' to meet their due like Vostroya. 

 

Not to mention the large numbers of expeditionary fleets that must pop up having no idea about the heresy.  I know marines sell, but i would like a little more non marine focus if they MUST do the scouring. 

Edited May 8, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[darkhorse0607]

I don't think this would happen, but I do hope that if they decide to do another character novels series focused during the Scouring/Post Legion split that we get something focusing on the newly split chapters, not necessarily on the battle side of things but on the logistical/character building side of the story.

 

How does Pollux handle the fact that he wasn't at the Siege like most of his legion, and now is being put in charge of one of the newly formed independent chapters that is filled with veterans of the battle he wasn't a part of? Did they just fly around until finding Rynn's World to set up their monastery on, or is there another meaning behind it?

 

How does Raldoron take the Chapter which is on the brink (assumably) post-Sangiunius, and reform them into a functional fighting force again, independent from the rest of the legion's leadership. Frankly on that note, how do Azkaellon and Amit function post Siege as well?

 

Where is Marius Gage in all of this?

 

Is there bitterness from the Raven Guard about their primarch just saying bye and leaving them to fend for themselves in a world dominated by the dictates of Guilliman with no dad to protect them anymore?

 

Show me the Sisters of Silence being exiled and how that goes on

Etc.

[Moonreaper666]

10 hours ago, darkhorse0607 said:

I don't think this would happen, but I do hope that if they decide to do another character novels series focused during the Scouring/Post Legion split that we get something focusing on the newly split chapters, not necessarily on the battle side of things but on the logistical/character building side of the story.

 

How does Pollux handle the fact that he wasn't at the Siege like most of his legion, and now is being put in charge of one of the newly formed independent chapters that is filled with veterans of the battle he wasn't a part of? Did they just fly around until finding Rynn's World to set up their monastery on, or is there another meaning behind it?

 

How does Raldoron take the Chapter which is on the brink (assumably) post-Sangiunius, and reform them into a functional fighting force again, independent from the rest of the legion's leadership. Frankly on that note, how do Azkaellon and Amit function post Siege as well?

 

Where is Marius Gage in all of this?

 

Is there bitterness from the Raven Guard about their primarch just saying bye and leaving them to fend for themselves in a world dominated by the dictates of Guilliman with no dad to protect them anymore?

 

Show me the Sisters of Silence being exiled and how that goes on

Etc.

 

Something tells me these story arcs you've listed will be combined

[Felix Antipodes]

As the two previous posts show, there are plenty of things happening which would make interesting stories within a Scouring setting.  I was not advocating for a ‘if UM get six novels then so should everyone else’ game plan, but there is more than enough to justify at least one for where each legion progresses in the aftermath.  Their story, from post HH to whatever cut off point they use could be done in one or take a trilogy (or more) but their story should be told imho.  A sandbox approach would allow for this.  Let the talent pick what they want to write and let them get at it.

[Felix Antipodes]

13 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

 

Yes, yes, I too am looking forward to Vulkan Lives Again, Older Earth and Deathfire Two: This Time It's Personal. 

 

There are perspectives that don't really have a place in the Scouring. The Iron Hands are, well, done. What's left of the Salamanders can reunite with Vulkan, I suppose, but Corax's lads aren't going to see their Primarch again. The Khan is dead (though he'll get better eventually, before immediately running off into the Webway). The Imperial Fists have to go die in the Cage, the Dark Angels have to go lose track of Caliban (they just put it down for a minute, they swear), and the Blood Angels will be back off to Baal to make Sanguinius a nice casket. 

 

That really does just leave... the Ultramarines. Guilliman has that enormous retribution force behind him, and we know he turns around quick-smart to go chase the Traitors back into the Eye with it (after breaking a few Legions, of course). 

 

And the Perpetuals. Of course.

 

Gosh, not much info really exists of that time right after the Emperor passed, does it, when Guilliman was Lord Commander. Like some kind of... unremembered empire.

 

One of the things that intrigues me WRT the Inquisition is just who gave them their charter.  No High Lord council would give them such wide-ranging powers, and I doubt that Guilliman would either.  If it was the Emperor, as seems most likely from their remit and claims, we would have seen it during the HH series.

My head canon is that they started out as Malcador’s inner circle and then bull:cuss:ted themselves into greater power once the Primarchs were out of the picture and there was no-one to authoritively dispute their claims.

[Nagashsnee]

3 hours ago, Felix Antipodes said:

 Let the talent pick what they want to write and let them get at it.

No, never again, letting them pick what they want is how entire legions got left in the dirt in the HH series while Salamanders and Raven Guard got book after poorly written book.  I dont need another series where having an actual plan, with actual goals is an afterthought.  

 

I can see the Kyme quote now 'while i am sure we will write about mars or the iron cage at some point when someone feels like it my latest book (book 3 if 6 of my salamanders scouring arc)  Fires of easy paychecks how i bought my first summer house really goes in depth and explores how the salamander legion recovered enough to not make any successors'. 

 

I understand writing is a creative process and cannot be forced but damn has BL show that the free range plan does not bloody work. 

[Felix Antipodes]

Ah, you misunderstand me my friend.  I wasn’t advocating free rein for the authors to pick and choose.  I meant that they should get on with the story(s) they are picked to write.   If they want to pick what they write about they need to say goodbye to tie-in fiction and enter the crazy ride that is original fiction publishing.

 

On a side note, I’d love a story explaining just why the Salamanders never managed to rebuild enough to produce any successors - and what they did that had the High Lords veto the use of their geneseed (or so it seems).  You can add to that a story on the fall of the Wolf Brothers.

[EverythingIsGreat]

The Scouring of the Traitor Legions is one part of the post-Heresy universe. In terms of in-universe importance, it is a lesser venture imo. More important are 1. The rebuilding of the Imperium in some fashion, and 2. Keeping xenos from taking advantage of the IoM's weakened state.

 

Objectively, the Primarch Project as a linchpin of Empire-building was a failure. There is no attribute or trait that can be used to predict why Primarch A turned traitor and Primarch B did not. The Primarchs exhibited certain propensities that apparently fit their genetic profile as designed (in order to successfully fulfill their eventual assigned roles during the first phase of Empire-building, the Great Crusade). However there is no in-universe indication that the predesigned profiles (which seem to have been 100%-successfully applied in action by all 18 known Primarchs) or the environment they found themselves post-scattering (which they all completely mastered largely because of their superior genetics) was a factor in determining who turned Traitor.

 

The bottom line for the post-Heresy Imperium is that Primarchs cannot really be trusted. Perhaps nobody else is, but nobody else is such a powerful being. The Space Marines can be trusted even less, and though not as powerful there's many more of them. Just like the Roman Senate or the Roman Emperors that always found something for their Legions to do as far away from Rome as possible, the new Imperial power structure would consider the Scouring and the Xenos repulsions as more than necessary. They are also an opportunity to remove certain inherently unpredictable elements from the serious business of trying to hold things together and rebuilding in some fashion.

 

As it often happens after a conflict, especially an internecine one, the rational thing for the winning side would be to expand enormously the size, resources, and scope of the intelligence services. To be on the same page as the lore characteristics of IoM, the harder it is to keep things together, so grows the power, functions and tentacles of the secret police. The thing to remember here is that intelligence services have their own hierarchy and structure which is closer to the civilian power structures and the web of civic society in general. They are normally not part of the military apparatus, which part the post-Heresy Imperium would like to keep subservient or at least at arm's length. The Emperor being incommunicado amplifies that need. Of course the most effective secret police is the one that nobody (with very few exceptions) knows with certainty that it exists. Similarly with the knowledge of what such purported force actually does, and how. Misinformation is worse than ignorance. Ignorance will perhaps make you fall into a trap, but misinformation will lead you to it.

 

So, the Inquisition.

[Sothalor]

One thing I would like to see in a Scouring series is a representation of the Astartes' star in decline.

 

So, if we bracket the timeline broadly like Great Crusade -> Horus Heresy -> 41st Millennium, the image and cultural conception of the Space Marines undergoes a sort of cyclical and circular transformation. If we work backwards, we have the sort of end state of the Angels of Death, monastic-knight-super soldier icon of the decayed Imperium. They have a sort of dysfunctional partnership with the Imperium - vital to its wars, but the Chapters tend to be culturally distinct and it's basically policy that Astartes do not hold political power.

 

That of course arises out of the crucible of the Heresy, where the traitor Legions and their Primarchs are the tip of the spear tearing the galaxy asunder.

 

And that flows from the Astartes of the Great Crusade, where the Legions are seen as the saviors of humanity, the representatives of the Emperor's will and the forefront of a great reunification.

 

Essentially we have the Astartes's star in ascendency, the catastrophe, and the long-tail transformation.

 

I want to see the aftermath, The image of the Astartes at its nadir, as the Imperium rebuilds itself from the flames and casts an angry, accusatory eye at the transhuman warriors it deems responsible for its trauma. The stripping of political favor, the limitations of power, the breaking of the Legions - I'd like to see an Imperium where trust and confidence in the Space Marines is at its lowest point, where they're not lionized but rather vilified, and some exploration of how we begin to move towards the cultural zeitgeist surrounding Space Marines in 40k.

 

Were the Astartes ever at serious risk of complete disbandment, and given reprieve because they were too useful (and maybe necessary) as weapons? How much tension was there between the nascent High Lords of Terra and the Primarchs? Are there schisms in the early Imperial Church over the theological role and position of the Space Marines? How does the Imperium begin to erase its own memory and history of the Traitor Primarchs and Legions?

 

The Scouring should be a period of intense transformation and upheaval for the nascent Imperium if we think about it; many of the institutions, worldviews, and cultural outlooks of the "modern" Imperium come out of this time - arguably even moreso than the Heresy. It's where the Imperium applies the lessons and traumas of the Heresy and sets itself on its long trajectory.

[EverythingIsGreat]

The Scouring as an era is certainly important in the lore. The scouring of traitors (essentially a glorified mopping operation) less so. However game-scenario-wise the reverse is true. So it is possible that what we get story-wise is mostly the military aspects with broad strokes on the rest.

 

My own in-universe idea is that the Ecclesiarchy was an Inquisition creation that took a life of its own. Or maybe that would be one of the versions of the truth that the Inquisition puts out. Real-world bonus: if anything could be a ploy/misdirection there is no such thing as lore retcons. 

 

Narratively though this may be unattractive.

[Felix Antipodes]

Due to the gaming that eventually underlies the lore, I have no doubt that any series will concentrate on the battles of the era.  I am just hopeful that the sort of background story we both want to see comes through in the cracks.

[b1soul]

The Scouring era is full of potential for novels focusing more on politicking and less on battles. Restructuring of the Imperium and related intrigue as the main course with a few Scouring battles as seasoning. 

[TrevorLoLz]

I agree with Sothalor and b1soul that there is huge potential for deep, though provoking stories about the political and military restructuring of the Imperium, the change in relationship with the Astartes and the end of the "Primarch Era".

 

I do not think we will get that however, unfortunately, for commercial reasons.  Without trying to sound too depressing, we will get largely Space Marines Battle but set in 31K and some references to the greater political backdrop.

 

In relation to the 30K Legiones Astartes changing from a more secular organisation (with some exceptions like the Wolves) to the monastic warrior-monks of the Adeptus Astartes today, I guess this is probably a result of being effectively exiled from the Imperium's greater affairs.  While they are still supplied by the Imperium to an extent, they are forced to be largely self-sufficient, have official political power stripped from them, the Legions are reduced to mere 1,000 men Chapters and told to manage their own affairs.  This comes about, from my understanding, of this delicate balance of "we need you to defend us, vs. we do not trust you and do not want you".  This attitude softens as the centuries grind on and those who immediately remember the Heresy die off, but the effect is the same.  Isolation breeds extremism.

[EverythingIsGreat]

Good day,

 

In another post above, I stated why I thought the Inquisition would be the one institution central to the rebuilding (the scouring being a part of the rebuilding). Real-world indications: the appearance of short stories about the nascent Inquisition in M31, related WD features, progressing to audio dramas and full novels, an Inquisition Codex with rules and lists (or maybe both 31K and 41K Inquisition codices ), and of course the related minis.

 

Let's not forget that AK who seems to have survived the whole era seems believable. Maybe his/her remembrances on this have been recorded and are available with the proper clearance 

Edited May 20, 2023 by EverythingIsGreat
typo

[Moonreaper666]

12 hours ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

Good day,

 

In another post above, I stated why I thought the Inquisition would be the one institution central to the rebuilding (the scouring being a part of the rebuilding). Real-world indications: the appearance of short stories about the nascent Inquisition in M31, related WD features, progressing to audio dramas and full novels, an Inquisition Codex with rules and lists (or maybe both 31K and 41K Inquisition codices ), and of course the related minis.

 

Let's not forget that AK who seems to have survived the whole era seems believable. Maybe his/her remembrances on this have been recorded and are available with the proper clearance 

 

If Moriana doesn't join Chaos in TEATD Vol 2 then her corruption would happen during the Scouring

[Mazer Rackham]

On 5/9/2023 at 3:33 AM, Felix Antipodes said:

My head canon is that they started out as Malcador’s inner circle and then bull:cuss:ted themselves into greater power once the Primarchs were out of the picture and there was no-one to authoritively dispute their claims.

 

There's an old bit of lore in the Inquisitor RPG which is basically just that. Four of them get together, discuss how the Golden Throne works, that the big E is still alive, and then they split off, organising their factions to shift into a secret war between radicals and puritans. It is set directly after the Emperor's Ascension, so would be likely that they would be be in positions to control and command resources, manpower, alliances, etc.

 

In this way, they manoeuvred into position as invaluable and indispensable, fighting against 'deep-rooted' heresy, 'lingering recidivism' the boogeyman under the bloody stairs, you need us, see?

 

My tuppence.

[Felix Antipodes]

Thanks for that.  I missed the Inquisitor game when it came out, so any lore from that is most welcome. 

[EverythingIsGreat]

On 5/8/2023 at 10:33 PM, Felix Antipodes said:

 

One of the things that intrigues me WRT the Inquisition is just who gave them their charter.  No High Lord council would give them such wide-ranging powers, and I doubt that Guilliman would either.  If it was the Emperor, as seems most likely from their remit and claims, we would have seen it during the HH series.

My head canon is that they started out as Malcador’s inner circle and then bull:cuss:ted themselves into greater power once the Primarchs were out of the picture and there was no-one to authoritively dispute their claims.

 

Good day,

 

Felix's post is getting traction... 

It is a good one, as it touches on areas that haven't received much attention. First the role of intelligence during the GC. It is inconceivable that any military campaign of conquest would proceed without civilian (first) and military (later) intelligence operations. A galaxy spanning operation like the GC would require vast numbers of intel operatives, psyker-scryers, informants, data collection/analysis etc.. And time. Quite a bit of it. Obviously, this may have been a low priority target for GW as it does not easily translate to minis and game scenarios, but still. What little lore exists centers on the rogue traders who were also sort of acting as an unofficial intelligence service. But this is not very coherent, And some rogue traders per the lore were forced to accept their charter and move out into the provinces or get slapped by the Emperor. So perhaps not all of them were in a hurry to help his little crusade along.

 

Of course there are ways this can be "fixed". Maybe such organizations were put in place while the Unification Wars were still happening, or before. Maybe the Sigillites had structures in place for millenia. Maybe the "Chosen" have been around for much, much longer. This is uncharted territory in the lore that up to now GW was treating as in a need-to-know basis, and we apparently did not need to know.

 

Same goes imo regarding the founding of the Inquisition and related formations. The lore is lacking in detail, but they may be forthcoming. So maybe the Inquisition did have an undisputed Emperor-signed charter. Maybe it did not, though it is hard to see how they could pull such a feat with several loyal Primarchs on Terra (and seething mad to boot). Notwithstanding all the institutions of M30 Imperium being non-functional, extremely hobbled or untrustworthy. The lore hints that Valdor, his Custodians severely mauled ultimately because of the unreliable Primarchs and their Astartes, would support any structure that would stand above them by order of the Emperor, whether such order valid or falsified. It is also likely per the lore that the AdMech would accept the counterbalance of the Inquisition, who would (should?) naturally be involved in the retaking of Mars by the loyalists.

 

If the Inquisition's original remit was to cleanse the Imperium of Chaotic influence, and practically every institution of the old Imperium (including the Primarchs) had been tainted by it and had to be scoured clean, I don't see how they could not be at the new regime's apex. Or rather not the apex but completely outside it, as a hierarchy-controlling element. 

 

Well, GW will have to show their hand eventually.

[Felix Antipodes]

From what little we do know, the Rogue Traders seem to have been established during the push to control the solar system (Void Kings sort of hints at this) so they may have been established as the forward intel you suggest is needed.  While there are several groups running around during the HH doing this sort of work, none are identified as a proto-Inquisition.  They may already exist but as a shadowy underground type of organisation but we have yet to be shown this if true.

What we do know is that they existed openly by the time of the War of the Beast.  The Ordos would come after that.

I’m also not sure that Valdor, suspicious of any authority other than the Emperor himself, would continence something like the Inquisition - unless he knew that they did operate under His authority.  Even then he wouldn’t like them .  Not sure that the Admech would be keen on them either.

[DukeLeto69]

I get the advance intel before invasion type thing but wonder if that is too much of a 20th/21st century view on things?

 

I always got the impression it was a bit more like Columbus et al and the Conquistadors heading West over the horizon and seeing what they discovered/needed to fight/conquer. Maybe that is analogous to the Rogue Traders rather than the Crusade Expeditionary Fleets (although “expedition” implies venturing into the unknown!)

[EverythingIsGreat]

Felix:

I do not suggest anyone would be keen on the Inquisition, or should be. What's to like about a secret police? If they are liked they are not doing their job. They would be accepted and tolerated, as a guard against repeating mistakes of the past. It is stated that Valdor/Custodes considered the Primarch Project and the Astartes an error. Per the lore, outside of Fo's final sanction there is little they can do by themselves to check their influence in the "New" Imperium.The Inquisition would be a useful ally, regardless of trust. As for the AdMech, the higher echelons would be aware of the force's existence, and of course select Adepts did work with the Inquisition, GK etc. The lore would be a bit off if there was no involvement of the fledgling Inquisition in the retaking of Mars whether that involvement was sanctioned or unsanctioned by the FabGen. Mars is the 2nd most important planet in the entire Imperium as far as Terra is concerned. It would make lore-sense to show the Inquisition attempting to burrow deep in there.

 

Duke:

AFAIK, starting with the first recorded campaigns in history there was always scouting in advance. This was taking many forms. Information from traders and merchants, sending scouts to meld with the locals under some disguise or other, spying, hostage-taking, fomenting instability, bribing/blackmailing, getting the lay of the land etc. Nobody wants to waste precious resources by starting a campaign blind and learning on the job. There are indications in the lore, including the HH canon, that these were not exactly random expeditions. It is stated that there was surviving (fragmentary or more complete) information about sectors of interest, which received priority mapping and attention by expedition HQs.

 

I guess my point is that there are many different ways for GW to present this in a believable fashion.

[darkhorse0607]

6 hours ago, DukeLeto69 said:

I get the advance intel before invasion type thing but wonder if that is too much of a 20th/21st century view on things?

 

I always got the impression it was a bit more like Columbus et al and the Conquistadors heading West over the horizon and seeing what they discovered/needed to fight/conquer. Maybe that is analogous to the Rogue Traders rather than the Crusade Expeditionary Fleets (although “expedition” implies venturing into the unknown!)

 

I don't think so, the fact that there were two (three if you count the White Scars) "scouting" legions (Alpha Legion makes extensive use of it's information networks as per the Alpharius books, Raven Guard for the traditional infiltration and scouting, White Scars for outriders), shows that there was at least consideration for those factors by the Emperor/War Council when the Great Crusade started.

 

The fact that the BL never showed us any of this is another story. I feel like the closest we got was the Alpharius novel and mentions of it with the White Scars stuff, but it would've been interesting to see the Raven Guard out doing what they do as pathfinders of the Crusade rather than focusing almost solely on them post-Istvaan. I feel like the bones were there to show us the strategic use of the legions, but then that got dropped so authors could just tell the stories they wanted instead.

[Felix Antipodes]

@EverythingIsGreat All good points.  I’m not saying the Inquisition couldn’t have taken part in these events, they probably did if they existed that early in the Scouring, just that these events don’t match the role(s) that they were doing in their earliest appearance we have seen so far.

As for being feared by all, I’m sure they were.  However, that doesn’t mean that those at the apex of power wouldn’t have put in place checks and balances to protect them from their own creation - if they had indeed been a planned creation.

It will be interesting to see the direction BL goes if/when they ever explore the early origins of our Inquisitional lords and masters.