10th ed Faction Focus - Necrons

[NTaW]

 

Maybe you all can let me know if I have this new rule straight in my head. Lets say I have a unit of 5 Lychguard, 2 wounds each, and 2 have been removed from play. I roll my D3 for Reanimation Protocols and get 3 successes. I allocate them as follows:

The first success returns a model to the unit with 1 wound.
The second success regains a wound to that model.

The third success returns another model to the unit.

 

I'm not sure how morale losses play into this, or how morale works at all at this point really, but if RP can bring any losses back like this won't RP be more reliable for bringing back multiple-wound models than the current incarnation of rule?

[Tyriks]

11 minutes ago, NTaW said:

 

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Maybe you all can let me know if I have this new rule straight in my head. Lets say I have a unit of 5 Lychguard, 2 wounds each, and 2 have been removed from play. I roll my D3 for Reanimation Protocols and get 3 successes. I allocate them as follows:

The first success returns a model to the unit with 1 wound.
The second success regains a wound to that model.

The third success returns another model to the unit.

 

I'm not sure how morale losses play into this, or how morale works at all at this point really, but if RP can bring any losses back like this won't RP be more reliable for bringing back multiple-wound models than the current incarnation of rule?

Yes. I think I prefer this method because of that. Sure, you can't roll hot and get a massive return that swings the whole game, but no more whiffs either. 

[NTaW]

I'm all about that consistency. Guaranteed returns are something a core rule of an army should be counted on for. Seeing the theme of Gauss and Death Ray weapons reflected in their USRs is also quite nice. Command Protocols will see Warrior blobs accompanied by lesser characters still hitting on 3+ so I'm not too worried there.

 

I think my main interest is seeing older units remain relevant when compared to the newer model releases.

[punisher357]

20 hours ago, NTaW said:

I'm all about that consistency. Guaranteed returns are something a core rule of an army should be counted on for. Seeing the theme of Gauss and Death Ray weapons reflected in their USRs is also quite nice. Command Protocols will see Warrior blobs accompanied by lesser characters still hitting on 3+ so I'm not too worried there.

 

I think my main interest is seeing older units remain relevant when compared to the newer model releases.

Seems to me that the only thing that will remain "consistent" is that your opponents will learn to wipe the unit to make sure you don't get RP.

Edited May 8, 2023 by punisher357

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, punisher357 said:

Seems to me that the only thing that will remain "consistent" is that your opponents will learn to wipe the unit to make sure you do t get RP.

 

That has always been the best strategy against Necrons, wipe out units before RP can activate. This does not make it useless though. Careful use of terrain can ensure that your opponent cannot bring overwhelming force to bear important units. Plus there is the issue that the Necrons are pretty good at shooting back.

 

If an opponent concentrates on the Warriors early on to wipe them out. Smaller, deadlier units like Destroyers will be given free reign to tear through their lines. If the opponent concentrates on the more dangerous units, the Warriors can just keep shooting. By the late game, the opponent will likely no longer have enough units left to wipe Warrior blobs in one turn.

 

If an ability like RP has an obvious counter, the best thing to do is to make that counter tactically unattractive to opponents. Force them to choose between targeting the units that are scoring VPs and the ones that are going to make a mess of their army.

[punisher357]

6 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

That has always been the best strategy against Necrons, wipe out units before RP can activate. This does not make it useless though. Careful use of terrain can ensure that your opponent cannot bring overwhelming force to bear important units. Plus there is the issue that the Necrons are pretty good at shooting back.

 

If an opponent concentrates on the Warriors early on to wipe them out. Smaller, deadlier units like Destroyers will be given free reign to tear through their lines. If the opponent concentrates on the more dangerous units, the Warriors can just keep shooting. By the late game, the opponent will likely no longer have enough units left to wipe Warrior blobs in one turn.

 

If an ability like RP has an obvious counter, the best thing to do is to make that counter tactically unattractive to opponents. Force them to choose between targeting the units that are scoring VPs and the ones that are going to make a mess of their army.

That hasn't always been a strategy against crons. There have been versions of RP that weren't negated by wiping the unit. I understand the concept of target priority and a "distraction carnifex". That stance has been taken on previous versions of RP and it just didn't pan out.

 

My point is that GW makes you pay a premium for RP, which, in its current form, your opponent can take away from you by wiping the unit. That is a bad mechanic. The problem is that they're forcing RP to be something that takes place in the command phase. That isn't a good idea. It severely limits options for how it can function.

"Lethality has been reduced"....for now. Inevitably power creep will increase, just like every edition. Then it won't be as hard to wipe those units. This is the same piss poor design used before, with some tweaks.

 

Now, I'm not saying, "All is lost! Wallow in despair!". However, I'm not excited to see a mechanic that can be completely negated by ranged attacks from your opponent. Especially, when we've lost an inch of movement AND had a decrease in BS for a staple unit.

 

It also appears we're being pushed (hard) to take HQ units with each squad of warriors. Historically, our HQs have been lackluster. That's not a point I'm going to try to convince anyone on. I'm not a fan of this direction. Seems it's likely a tax.

 

The monolith.....sigh....no invuln + 7 inch movement + humongous footprint. Yeah....I just don't even want to get my hopes up on this at all. GW is pretty poor at understanding what something is worth and how it's going to act and be reacted to in game.

 

Could this version of RP be functional and work well if points cost is appropriate? Sure, but past experience makes it seem unlikely that would be the case.

Could HQs be very worthwhile based on their abilities or war gear? Could they have a res orb worth something? Sure, but again, I wouldn't bank on it.

 

I am a fan of what appears to be a version of the old Gauss rule coming back. I'm excited to see how it interacts with the rest of the game. In the past, it was a strength and something that made Necrons unique. Glad to see a version for this edition.

 

Look, I really hope GW got it right this edition. I hope RP gives Necrons the durability they need and it isn't overcosted. I hope our HQs are something we want to take for more than just the boost to ranged attacks for the SINGLE unit they're attached to. I hope the monolith is a brick of utility and death rather than a brick of disappointment.

I hope I'm 100% wrong. I'm just not willing to let those hopes get very high. 

 

There's still a lot of unknowns, but from what we have seen so far, I'm concerned.

[Nusquam]

6 hours ago, punisher357 said:

That hasn't always been a strategy against crons. There have been versions of RP that weren't negated by wiping the unit. I understand the concept of target priority and a "distraction carnifex". That stance has been taken on previous versions of RP and it just didn't pan out.

 

My point is that GW makes you pay a premium for RP, which, in its current form, your opponent can take away from you by wiping the unit. That is a bad mechanic. The problem is that they're forcing RP to be something that takes place in the command phase. That isn't a good idea. It severely limits options for how it can function.

"Lethality has been reduced"....for now. Inevitably power creep will increase, just like every edition. Then it won't be as hard to wipe those units. This is the same piss poor design used before, with some tweaks.

 

Now, I'm not saying, "All is lost! Wallow in despair!". However, I'm not excited to see a mechanic that can be completely negated by ranged attacks from your opponent. Especially, when we've lost an inch of movement AND had a decrease in BS for a staple unit.

 

It also appears we're being pushed (hard) to take HQ units with each squad of warriors. Historically, our HQs have been lackluster. That's not a point I'm going to try to convince anyone on. I'm not a fan of this direction. Seems it's likely a tax.

 

The monolith.....sigh....no invuln + 7 inch movement + humongous footprint. Yeah....I just don't even want to get my hopes up on this at all. GW is pretty poor at understanding what something is worth and how it's going to act and be reacted to in game.

 

Could this version of RP be functional and work well if points cost is appropriate? Sure, but past experience makes it seem unlikely that would be the case.

Could HQs be very worthwhile based on their abilities or war gear? Could they have a res orb worth something? Sure, but again, I wouldn't bank on it.

 

I am a fan of what appears to be a version of the old Gauss rule coming back. I'm excited to see how it interacts with the rest of the game. In the past, it was a strength and something that made Necrons unique. Glad to see a version for this edition.

 

Look, I really hope GW got it right this edition. I hope RP gives Necrons the durability they need and it isn't overcosted. I hope our HQs are something we want to take for more than just the boost to ranged attacks for the SINGLE unit they're attached to. I hope the monolith is a brick of utility and death rather than a brick of disappointment.

I hope I'm 100% wrong. I'm just not willing to let those hopes get very high. 

 

There's still a lot of unknowns, but from what we have seen so far, I'm concerned.

 

I agree on all fronts.

 

RP seems to have been retooled to worse over all but with predictable/stable returns. With so many ways to get reroll wounds, wiping a squad isn't seemingly difficult even in 10th. You'll have to play extra conservative, even compared to 9e, and string out behind obscuring so the squad can't be wiped from shooting. We've yet to see what indirect is like in 10th so it might be reigned in enough. Points will be the deciding factor. If cryptek+reanimator is more bodies back, it won't save you from the initial wipe but disproportionately punish less experienced players, whereas seasoned will know how to maneuver and to list build ensure wipes. Maybe they'll throw us a curve ball and Rites of Reanimation triggers RP at the end of a phase for the attached unit of your choice.

 

I don't like you have to take a character to get the Detachment bonus, and even then it's non vehicle. +1 to hit on warriors that just dropped to BS4+ seems silly. It's just the first index detachment, sure but look at Nids; It's always on for all models. I think GW doubled down on Necrons datasheets having more to them and lessened their army rules. Perhaps Necron strength is vehicles and character buffs with well costed points and the article just didn't convey it as well as it should have.

 

Monolith glow up was so close. Towering so it still can't be obscured, 7" move that even flying over an objective is a hassle(remember 10e you can't stand on them anymore). However, T14 is a good spot and the weapons and utility is good. There is so much to take into consideration that it's points will make or break more so than others. It will be seen at all times so it needs to not suffer from centerpiece cost syndrome.

 

Doomsday ark and stalker looking to be winners. Implication from the weapons we've seen, armored crons looks like the direction to go in Index land.

 

Of all the article I feel Necrons was the most read between the lines. 

[Stupidity]

I'm hearing a lot of complaints about RP being a tax on infantry for 10E. Which while seemingly true, remember that we've seen very little of what Necron's have to offer.  This seems easy to balance with a stratagem. Something like giving them -1 to hit or an Invul for a phase or the ability to resurrect whole squads like the Guard now can. 

While normally I have very low expectations for GW, it seems silly to recognize and remove such an obvious flaw for one edition, just to add it again in the next. It seems like just yesterday I was reading their article on why they changed RP to prevent focused fire countering RP. 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Stupidity

[Captain Idaho]

I like Reanimation Protocols. Easy, with rules that'll boost it up as needed (which we've already seen some of with the Warriors datasheet) so I'm happy.

 

Skorpekh Destroyers suffer one dead, one wounded once and if you roll a 3 on the RP you heal a Skorpekh and raise another. Seems good to me, whilst I'm sure Technomaners and maybe even Reanimators will do something finally.

[punisher357]

Great! Now Astra militarum and chaos demons can regenerate units. I guess that Necrons don't even get to have that as their unique niche.

[Nusquam]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

I like Reanimation Protocols. Easy, with rules that'll boost it up as needed (which we've already seen some of with the Warriors datasheet) so I'm happy.

 

Skorpekh Destroyers suffer one dead, one wounded once and if you roll a 3 on the RP you heal a Skorpekh and raise another. Seems good to me, whilst I'm sure Technomaners and maybe even Reanimators will do something finally.

 

How many times in practice is an opponent only ever going to kill one and just wound a second? Practical application of skorpekhs is front line fighters, so they'll be exposed to the most damage. While anecdotal, the only time my skorpekhs suffered minor damage was because the other unit of skorpekh got wiped and my opponent only had left overs to deal with as the unit that got wiped reanimated one or two and soaked up a disproportionately larger volume of fire. That soak is gone with new RP. Though since we haven't seen Skorpekh it could be they got -1 to wound baked in and another defensive boost to balance out needing to wait until the command phase. Or Chronomancer just grant a 5++ to their unit without needing a command phase. I'm just nervous becuase warriors are as easy to wipe as they were before, they just got a boost to RP assuming they survive. If units are priced so well that you just take more bodies than you would have in 9th to make it to your next command phase then it works out too. GW is not known for their fine-tuning in a first draft. 

 

Despite my gripes, they're keeping the balance slate quarterly so if they see Necrons tank for whatever reason they have opportunity to fix it.

[Captain Idaho]

I use them in blocks of 6 as the Emperor intended. They don't generally get wiped for me.

 

With a bit of terrain hopefully they won't be targeted by the entire opponent's army.

[Stupidity]

Man I really hope Overlords have a Rites of Battle equivalent. Also that CCB's have an even better version. 

[punisher357]

Now we get to look forward to demons, nids, and Astra militarum regenerating models. Yes, I know demons and nids could do it in previous editions, but not at this scale. 

 

My bigger concern is that GW, once again, has bungled RP. I don't think they'll be able to fix it after the cat's out of the bag.

 

Fingers crossed....maybe there are some rules we haven't seen that will balance it out.

[Stupidity]

13 minutes ago, punisher357 said:

My concern is that GW, once again, has bungled RP. I don't think they'll be able to fix it after the cat's out of the bag.

Fingers crossed....maybe there are some rules we haven't seen that will balance it out.

 

I think that they will have something to prevent units of infantry from being focused fired and negating RP. Likely a stratagem or character ability that increases the survivability of infantry units.  They previously said stratagems would be more reactive in 10E and it seems like just yesterday they had a community article about RP in 8E and why they changed it. 

Edited May 10, 2023 by Stupidity

[punisher357]

21 minutes ago, Stupidity said:

 

I think that they will have something to prevent units of infantry from being focused fired and negating RP. Likely a stratagem or character ability that increases the survivability of infantry units.  They previously said stratagems would be more reactive in 10E and it seems like just yesterday they had a community article about RP in 8E and why they changed it. 

I must have missed that article. I'd love to read it for context. Still, GW didn't do a great... no...adequate job in 8th or 9th.

 

I'm hoping that we might get a worthwhile res orb!

[Stupidity]

13 minutes ago, punisher357 said:

I must have missed that article. I'd love to read it for context. Still, GW didn't do a great... no...adequate job in 8th or 9th.

 

I'm hoping that we might get a worthwhile res orb!

The article for necrons going into 9th Edition. 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/09/28/codex-necrons-new-rules-and-units/

 

They specifically mention the problem of units getting wiped out before they can use RP. 

"This change means that if your opponent wants to prevent you from making any Reanimation Protocols rolls, they’ll have to wipe out your unit in a single attack, which for most Necrons units is easier said than done!"

 

[Captain Idaho]

GW have said they wanted to reduce how over powered things are, so maybe wiping stuff out super easily and quickly is less frequent, when combined with terrain etc.

 

We can but hope but looking at the weapons in some of the reveals it doesn't look like things have been toned down!

[punisher357]

12 hours ago, Stupidity said:

The article for necrons going into 9th Edition. 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/09/28/codex-necrons-new-rules-and-units/

 

They specifically mention the problem of units getting wiped out before they can use RP. 

"This change means that if your opponent wants to prevent you from making any Reanimation Protocols rolls, they’ll have to wipe out your unit in a single attack, which for most Necrons units is easier said than done!"

 

Ohhhh.....yeah. I remember that article.  They weren't really saying that your opponent being able to prevent you from making reanimation protocols was a problem though. They don't seem to think that's an issue.

When you combine that with their lack of understanding about the meta and how lethality actually works, it doesn't look very promising.

There's some kind of Disconnect in their design and the way they think the game functions versus the real world.

If someone wants a unit dead it's going to die, and I'm fine with that. My issue is that I pay higher points cost for an ability I don't get the chance to use because GW has it take place in the command phase. 

Since RP is the signature trait for crons, it really needs to work. It's a balancing act for sure

 

[Ahzek451]

I'll have to re-read some stuff, but based on todays sisters article, they did talk about indirect weapons. And in that verbiage I got the hint that if models are not in sight, they cant be killed. So...maybe room to tuck a warrior away? But I could be completely wrong. 

[Malakithe]

Ive already said this but based on all the previewed stuff so far no one is wiping out a unit of Warriors in one go. Unit to unit no other infantry shooting (so far) will be enough to wipe Warriors. And no one is taking units of just 10 Warriors cuz thats just a waste. Your taking blocks of 20 lets be real. In melee sure they can be wiped or multiple units shooting into them. But chip damage is a thing of the past and if your opponent is investing more then 2 units to shoot your Warriors off an objective you already won.

 

Also no one is remembering there is still Crypteks, Orbs, and the RezWalker who will all likely be modifing or adding to RP 

[NTaW]

On 5/10/2023 at 8:10 PM, Ahzek451 said:

I'll have to re-read some stuff, but based on todays sisters article, they did talk about indirect weapons. And in that verbiage I got the hint that if models are not in sight, they cant be killed. So...maybe room to tuck a warrior away? But I could be completely wrong. 

 

I got that vibe off the wording as well. LoS is one of those polar things where it's either abstracted as the current rules state or literal like with pre-8th editions. As much as I like the abstraction for simplicity in gaming I may appreciate a more literal approach like what may be inferred by the Indirect Fire rule.

 

Also the more I look at the new Monolith sheet the more interested I become in reviving the old hunk of plastic I have in the basement. Between a lot of work to recover and lackluster rules that project was put on permanent hiatus, but now with the ability to design and print replacement parts and a decent looking datasheet perhaps I'll get back on it.

[Stupidity]

On 5/10/2023 at 6:01 AM, Captain Idaho said:

GW have said they wanted to reduce how over powered things are, so maybe wiping stuff out super easily and quickly is less frequent, when combined with terrain etc.

 

We can but hope but looking at the weapons in some of the reveals it doesn't look like things have been toned down!

 

Well troops seems to have reduced accuracy and AP now so less killing power which should make them cheaper. So more troops on the board with less killing power each.  At the same time vehicles should see more use now and oversized anti vehicle guns don't scare Necrons much.  Chronomancers probably still have that 5++ granting ability. 

 

I'm mostly worried about Glorious Melee Combat reducing our infantry to scrap in a single turn with deepstrike or charge shenanigans. 

[Ahzek451]

On 5/12/2023 at 7:58 AM, NTaW said:

 

I got that vibe off the wording as well. LoS is one of those polar things where it's either abstracted as the current rules state or literal like with pre-8th editions. As much as I like the abstraction for simplicity in gaming I may appreciate a more literal approach like what may be inferred by the Indirect Fire rule.

 

Also the more I look at the new Monolith sheet the more interested I become in reviving the old hunk of plastic I have in the basement. Between a lot of work to recover and lackluster rules that project was put on permanent hiatus, but now with the ability to design and print replacement parts and a decent looking datasheet perhaps I'll get back on it.

Likewise, I havnt used the monolith since 4th edition, and ill most def be trying one out once I splash some paint on it.

[punisher357]

4 hours ago, Ahzek451 said:

Likewise, I havnt used the monolith since 4th edition, and ill most def be trying one out once I splash some paint on it.

It's all going to depend on points cost for me. That's going to make or break it. I really hope GW doesn't overestimate it's value like in past editions.