Aeldari in Tenth?

[Xenith]

On 6/7/2023 at 10:40 AM, Karhedron said:

I think the main reason Rangers were popular in 9th was that Eldar Troops have generally been pretty poor and they were simply the cheapest way of paying the Troop tax.

 

There's that, but also Rangers IMO were the only reliable way to score an Eldar secondary - scout the enemy, particularly in AoO with no CP for strat reserves. The others were just too hard, like guaranteeing a unit killed by aspects in both shooting and combat phases (our fragile, fragile aspects), while rangers could pop up in the opposing DZ in turns 3-5 and happily score 12 for scout. 

 

What do we think of the D cannon, and the news that a (previously unheard of, for me) tournment is banning Aeldari?

 

I dont think it's a big deal. D6+2 mortals or whatever requires a lot of stars to align, and expenditure of resources, on a fragile platform with a 24" range. 

[Kallas]

30 minutes ago, Xenith said:

What do we think of the D cannon, and the news that a (previously unheard of, for me) tournment is banning Aeldari?

I dont think it's a big deal. D6+2 mortals or whatever requires a lot of stars to align, and expenditure of resources, on a fragile platform with a 24" range. 

I think the D-Cannon needs to lose Devastating Wounds - it's not really requiring "stars to align" to roll 6s to wound. Against 'normal' sized (10-strong) units, DCs are getting 3-5 shots each; with a reroll to hit from Battle Host (or possibly reroll all from Guide), and then a reroll to wound as well (and of course, Strands of Fate depending on how much you want damage to pop off) there is a reasonable chance that any single DC will roll a 6 and cause a heap of Mortal Wounds. If they're shooting into a powerful unit like Terminators or similar, that is otherwise very tough and potentially very dangerous, then paying a couple of Fate Dice to guarantee that they get absolutely demolished is well worth it; and if it's a lesser unit but still important (eg, a big Guard squad with Leontas attached) then shredding it with a couple of buckets of MWs is also good.

 

The fragility of the platform is one thing, but the Indirect Fire (plus Heavy to counteract half of the penalty; and AP-4+DW to counter the other half) lets them sit relatively safely. 24" is quite short, but will still let them cover at least two objectives (considering players are placing objectives, at least for the core mission pack), and probably a significant chunk of the midboard. On top of that, they're a priority target for the opponent, which means there is an element of manipulation in that you'll know that they will be trying to remove the DCs ASAP, letting you engage their threatening units with other units to delay/remove the threats.

 

Overall, I think banning them from a tournament is understandable: they are going to be obnoxious as hell to play against. GW just needs to remove Devastating Wounds from them, call it a copy-paste error with the Shadow Weaver, and move on - they're still premier anti-tank weapons and kill off whatever they hit, but without DW they won't annihilate literally everything from a Baneblade to a massive group of Guardsmen.

[TrawlingCleaner]

Agreed, Devastating Wounds isn't needed on the D-Cannon. I can see what they're going for with the D weapons all having Devastating Wounds, it makes sense for a weapon type like Melta having the Melta keyword. As mentioned, I'm not sure it was needed as it's already a very powerful AT weapon. You can reliably give 1 platform a 6 from a nearby Farseer a turn and maybe luck out and get more.

You'd never really take it over the Shadowweaver most of the time either as it's a better Anti-Infantry weapon most of the time.

They could be hideously point costed of course and not be worth their points

 

For the tournament, they would've been better served just banning units that they thought would be too good than banning an entire faction in an entirely unknown edition. I'm not sure I'd personally trust a group of TOs that make that much of judgement call without all the context. Different strokes for sure though, there's definitely people that will appreciate it

 

One thing I am wondering is where to 'Quins come in? Do they get their own detachment or do they use the standard one? Do they get anything different? Or are they back to functionally being Eldar's Scions?

[Kallas]

18 minutes ago, TrawlingCleaner said:

Agreed, Devastating Wounds isn't needed on the D-Cannon. I can see what they're going for with the D weapons all having Devastating Wounds, it makes sense for a weapon type like Melta having the Melta keyword.

Yeah definitely. The Wraithcannons having DW as well speaks to the "D-Weapons have DW" design theory, but it's just so shortsighted on such a powerful and, the real kicker, Indirect weapon.

 

19 minutes ago, TrawlingCleaner said:

You'd never really take it over the Shadowweaver most of the time either as it's a better Anti-Infantry weapon most of the time.

They could be hideously point costed of course and not be worth their points

Yeah. Just rolling dice on my desk a bunch of times (I have dice next to me 24/7 ) the Shadow Weavers lose to the D-Cannons against GEQs, because even one 6 to wound deals so much damage. If my expectation that GW is going to go the AoS route - that is, having weapon options be free as 'sidegrades' of one another - is true, then I think they will have messed things up royally, at least on this front; so I really hope that this wild ass guess is wrong (as a note, one reason I believe they're aiming for this is things like the Harlequin Voidweaver in 9e: instead of pricing the weapons differently, because the Prism Cannon was OP, they just costed the whole boat way more; which was incredbibly dumb!)

 

If they are pointed individually, then the D-Cannon will need to cost way more than the Shadow Weaver and Vibro Cannon, which are both kinda...meh. I mean, I can see some value in singleton Weavers, sat in corners to block deep strike and just apply a cheeky -1 to hit on random units, especially if they're cheap - but that's not exactly a glamourous role!

 

24 minutes ago, TrawlingCleaner said:

For the tournament, they would've been better served just banning units that they thought would be too good than banning an entire faction in an entirely unknown edition.

It is a very knee-jerk reaction, yes. That said, I do think there are definitely some strong outlier units that benefit heavily from the Eldar Strands and Battle Host - War Walkers, Avatar, D-Cannons are all strong, but the Aspects we've seen still bring strong anti-horde to compliment the great anti-tank of other units, and with the changes to force organisation, it will be very easy to throw in cheap fast units like Vypers for grabbing objectives without having to worry about fitting them into a Battalion or whatever.

 

Overall, I think it's going to really come down to points: if Eldar aren't expensive enough, then I think they will be oppressive to begin with, simply because their dice manipulation gives them a massive headstart in the early game.

[Zoatibix]

It amused…I sighed…even as a Tyranid player…that Biovores have DW, too. It’s more common than I like already.

[Captain Coolpants]

I dunno. A single deepstricking/podding melta/plasma squad will just delete these all powerful and fearful D Cannons. Its something Marines have been able to do for numerous editions, just plop down, and delete a unit. 

I just don't think things will be as bad as they first seem. Remember when that tau gun last edition was revealed and everyone said it would break the game.... And it didn't? I'm getting the same vibe. Could be wrong of course. But I see no sense in fretting over something that hasn't even been mass played yet. 

[Kallas]

8 hours ago, Captain Coolpants said:

A single deepstricking/podding melta/plasma squad will just delete these all powerful and fearful D Cannons

Is the Eldar player asleep? Have people suddenly forgotten how to screen out Deep Strike? 

8 hours ago, Captain Coolpants said:

Remember when that tau gun last edition was revealed and everyone said it would break the game.... And it didn't? I'm getting the same vibe

You mean the single shot weapon with no ability to guarantee a 6? Compared to the d3+Blast of the DCs, with built in rerolls and guaranteed 6s if you want them?

 

Bit of a different situation.

[Paladin777]

Well, the index is up! My first impressions are that Fire Dragons are decent, but not the tank annihilators they once were, spirits were being able to resurrect either wraithblades or wraithguard is nuts, the at T11 and 10 W wraithlords are pretty tough, and I'm never running an Autarch on foot. The Autarch with wings having Lone Operative is very interesting though!

 

The choice between weapons on the scorpion and banshee exarchs actually looks meaningful now too, which is nice. Dragon's Breath Flamer still sucks though. Firepike on the other hand! O.O

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/06/15/free-xenos-index-cards-the-battle-for-the-galaxy-rages-on-all-sides/

Edited June 15, 2023 by Paladin777
Forgot the link.

[Karhedron]

=][=

Merged with the existing 10th edition discussion thread

/=][=

[Kallas]

2 hours ago, Paladin777 said:

My first impressions are that Fire Dragons are decent, but not the tank annihilators they once were

Dragons were a disappointment for me. As premier tank hunters in pretty much every edition, having just Meltaguns is sad. 9/-/4/d6(+2) with the only advantages being Assault and rr1s to wound/damage is pretty bleh when you're wounding almost all tanks on 5s. Sure, they'll bust open the T9 transports, but that's about it - and they're squishy. Points might make them ok, but still disappointing.

 

2 hours ago, Paladin777 said:

The choice between weapons on the scorpion and banshee exarchs actually looks meaningful now too

I'd say Scorpions will almost always want the Biting Blade, like previously, because the extra attacks at D2 with Sustained Hits and Devastating Wounds will help more than one less attack and at lower accuracy. Vs Marines, Scorpions will do a lot of work, and the BB helps a lot - the Claw is good, of course, but I do think the BB is overall a bit more reliable/in keeping with their role.

 

For Banshees I agree, Mirrorswords are still good, but the Triskele is nice and the Executioner is definitely more tempting without Exarch Powers being available.

[Karhedron]

Wraithguard existing has been a problem for Fire Dragons in several editions and it looks likely to continue.

 

Scorpions and Spiders are looking pretty promising as we discussed earlier and I think Dire Avengers will see some play too. Banshees with Jain Zarr have the golden combo of free Heroic Intervention and Fights First. The only problem is that most of their attacks are S4 1D so they may have trouble making enough damage stick. It will take a full 10-man squad to kill 5 MEQs. If they have any defensive buffs like extra toughness or an Invuln, that goes down a lot. Jain Zarr can pick up some of the slack.

[Paladin777]

Two advantages that FD have over WG is the ability to take advantage of the falcon's Supporting Fire ability, and the ability to take 10 in a wave serpent.
 

Also, Melta 3 makes each failed save really hurt...

 

the real breakpoint will be how much each unit costs. We'll find out tomorrow!

Edited June 15, 2023 by Paladin777

[Paladin777]

I just looked at the rules for the Autarch's loadout again and it's really stupid...

 

The banshee blade, mandiblaster, and fusion pistol go together, and none of those items can go with any other loadout. What's even dumber is that the loadout rules are a copy-paste between Autarch on foot and autarch with wings, so they can't even claim 'what comes in the box' for these!

 

Edited June 16, 2023 by Paladin777

[Zoatibix]

Banshees kept baked in Advance (or Fallback) and Charge. They also retained AP -3

 

Only being S4 is a pretty minor weakness.

[Paladin777]

Losing +1 to-wound on the charge kinda hurts though. 

[Kallas]

30 minutes ago, Paladin777 said:

Losing +1 to-wound on the charge kinda hurts though. 

Those cheeky Harlequins came in and stole it!

 

Fooled by Cegorach again! 

[Karhedron]

13 minutes ago, EnsignJoker said:

How is everyone going to run their wind riders? With free cannons I thinks they’re the no brainer way to go. 

 

Probably Canons. However if you have an Autarch on Jetbike, I think there might be mileage in having him lead a unit with Scatter Lasers and use his free additional CP to pay for Bladestorm on the squad every turn. With 6 shots per bike, it will be pretty easy to fish for Critical Wounds and the 36" range will allow them to flit around at long range and harrass the enemy.

 

I will probably go for Canons though as I want the Farseer to lead the unit as the Windriders are a bit more durable and mobile than Guardians which means the Farseer is likely to live longer and apply his Branching Fates and Guide abilities to the units that need them.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Karhedron

[Paladin777]

Throwing a warlock skyrunner in a large squad of windriders for conceal seems tempting too. 

[Paladin777]

Any thoughts on autarchs, Farseers, and warlocks being locked to guardians, and their skyrunner equivalents being locked to windriders only?

 

Personally I'm fine with the skyrunners, but the foot sloggers... let's just say I wish that aspect warriors weren't completely locked to Phoenix lords!

Edited June 16, 2023 by Paladin777

[Kallas]

4 minutes ago, Paladin777 said:

Any thoughts on autarchs, Farseers, and warlocks being locked to guardians, and their skyrunner equivalents being locked to windriders only?

Yes, it's a bad decision. 

[Paladin777]

Well, I've got an exarch on foot that is never going to see play because of it, so that's a thing. Storm guardians are pretty awful, especially for their points cost, and defender guardians not only want to avoid combat (strongly mitigating the autarchs's decent melee profile), but who's gonna use the exarch's extra strategem on guardians!? An edge case might exist, but if I'm going to pick a leader for the unit, it's gonna be the Farseer who can buff other, more generally useful squads.
 

The Autarch Wayleaper looks serviceable though, and with his CP generation might actually be an auto-include!

[Kallas]

7 hours ago, EnsignJoker said:

Aren’t the exarchs and PLs the leaders of the aspects though? If anything an Autarch is a lone leader overseeing the whole battle and fighting where they’re needed most, and I’d associate them leading the guardians more than the aspects. The aspects have their leader, and it’s arguably Khaine himself with the exarchs as his representative. 

An Autarch is an Eldar who has walked multiple Aspect Paths and left them - so they are experienced in different Paths. They are kind of jack-of-all-trades Aspect Warriors, and they're war leaders because they have a better appreciation for battle strategy because they're not focused on one way of war like the individual Aspects are.

 

Yes, you can argue that Exarchs are the leaders of their Aspects, and you're not wrong, but in the format of 10e's Leaders/Attached units the Autarch needs more than just...Guardians; and Autarchs leading Aspects does make sense - it could even be limited by their wargear in some way (eg, Banshee Masks can only join Banshees; Skyrunner with Lance can join Shining Spears, etc). Farseers on Guardians is understandable, but even there it's kind of disappointing. Eldar have a pretty small selection of units, and being limited to the absolute basic units is quite sad - especially when you look at Marines who can attach characters all over the place (yes yes, there are reasons for both, and that's fine, but from a gameplay perspective it's still overly restrictive).

[TrawlingCleaner]

It's a shame that Warlock Conclaves on foot couldn't have a similar rule as the Court of the Archon for Drukhari. If an Archon is already in a Kabalite squad, the CotA can join that squad too, even with Guardians it would've been cool to see Warlocks+Farseer surrounded by Guardians.

 

With Foot-Autarchs, I'm looking to the squad of Corsairs I need to build. I think I'm going to run my Autarch with Spear as Yriel with a squad of Voidreavers/scarred, I think  Corsairs can really fill a "gap" we have in sturdier troops with a bit more output. Their powerswords are better than Storm Guardians and their Rifles can be more useful than Defenders. Perhaps it needs some testing to see where they end up.

 

Looking at the Falcon, the Pulse Laser is quite odd. It's still S9 and is back to D6 damage. Possibly so they've not just got a BrightLance and Pulse laser essentially being the same thing?

The Fire Support rule could be pretty handy for getting more out of Banshees, the only downside is that it needs to have moved up to position the turn before for the Banshees to disembark then advance and charge

[Kallas]

2 hours ago, TrawlingCleaner said:

It's a shame that Warlock Conclaves on foot couldn't have a similar rule as the Court of the Archon for Drukhari. If an Archon is already in a Kabalite squad, the CotA can join that squad too, even with Guardians it would've been cool to see Warlocks+Farseer surrounded by Guardians.

Personally I am quite saddened that there's no Seer Council type unit. A proper 1-2 Farseers plus 3-6 Warlocks with a focus on offensive capability instead of the Conclave's defensiveness. Marines can have 406 different Lieutenants and Captains, but other factions can only attach to a couple of units 

 

Oh well...

 

2 hours ago, TrawlingCleaner said:

With Foot-Autarchs, I'm looking to the squad of Corsairs I need to build. I think I'm going to run my Autarch with Spear as Yriel with a squad of Voidreavers/scarred, I think  Corsairs can really fill a "gap" we have in sturdier troops with a bit more output. Their powerswords are better than Storm Guardians and their Rifles can be more useful than Defenders. Perhaps it needs some testing to see where they end up.

Voidreavers look really solid, yeah. Reroll hits of 1/all vs objective holders is pretty solid, and as you say their power weapons are solid.

Voidscarred I'm less sold on: having to choose one enemy unit to get a buff against is a big mediocre, though they are better fighters (bar the rerolls) with 3A on their power weapons.

 

2 hours ago, TrawlingCleaner said:

Looking at the Falcon, the Pulse Laser is quite odd. It's still S9 and is back to D6 damage. Possibly so they've not just got a BrightLance and Pulse laser essentially being the same thing?

The Fire Support rule could be pretty handy for getting more out of Banshees, the only downside is that it needs to have moved up to position the turn before for the Banshees to disembark then advance and charge

Pulse Laser looks more like an anti-elite/light anti-tank rather than what we had before, as a mainline anti-tank weapon. 3 shots and -2/d6 is ok, and you can still use Fate Dice/Battle Host rerolls to get some extra mileage out of it.

 

Fire Support won't really benefit Banshees, because it's limited to the Shooting phase (ie, it says it last until the end of the phase, unfortunately). Would have been nice to have it apply to Banshees, but alas. As for advancing, well the Banshees still benefit from the extra resilience of the Falcon, the 3" disembark and then they're still fast enough to reach plenty of places. That said, I do think they are probably better off in a Wave Serpent (either alongside another MSU, like Scorpions) and let the Falcon carry shooty units like Dragons, Reapers or Avengers who can take advantage of Fire Support.

Edit: See below

Edited June 19, 2023 by Kallas

[TrawlingCleaner]

7 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Voidreavers look really solid, yeah. Reroll hits of 1/all vs objective holders is pretty solid, and as you say their power weapons are solid.

Voidscarred I'm less sold on: having to choose one enemy unit to get a buff against is a big mediocre, though they are better fighters (bar the rerolls) with 3A on their power weapons.

 

Pulse Laser looks more like an anti-elite/light anti-tank rather than what we had before, as a mainline anti-tank weapon. 3 shots and -2/d6 is ok, and you can still use Fate Dice/Battle Host rerolls to get some extra mileage out of it.

 

Fire Support won't really benefit Banshees, because it's limited to the Shooting phase (ie, it says it last until the end of the phase, unfortunately). Would have been nice to have it apply to Banshees, but alas. As for advancing, well the Banshees still benefit from the extra resilience of the Falcon, the 3" disembark and then they're still fast enough to reach plenty of places. That said, I do think they are probably better off in a Wave Serpent (either alongside another MSU, like Scorpions) and let the Falcon carry shooty units like Dragons, Reapers or Avengers who can take advantage of Fire Support.

 

Yriel seems like a really solid pick too, +1OC to a 10 man reavers unit makes them OC 32 in total which is nothing to sniff at and his redeploy is super handy too. Yriel's abilities seems to be an architype they've used across a few different factions as Huron Blackheart is the same and I think there's a couple of others too. It's a nice boon to have.

I think the Visarch could also be a great choice for those that want a killy "Autarch" to go in a unit too

 

Ah, crumbs, have they changed the Index sneakily then? I've got this in mine but will see if there's an updated one, could've been handy to help Banshees swing. They're going to struggle into most targets I think!