Wh40k 10th Edition Combi-weapons in 10th

[Xanthous]

I think this whole situation is quite weird, but as @jaxom has suggested, the profile for the combi-weapons really would match a bolter loaded with Hellfire Rounds, which definitely make sense given the Tyrannic War flavour of the new edition. It's possible they're not showing us everything, either because the secondary part of the combi-weapons may be printed on the Armoury card, or because they're saving the details of how it'll work for if/when they preview the Sternguard Veterans.

 

I am desperately grasping for any chance that they will preserve differentiated combi-weapons though, I'll acknowledge that it looks less and less likely with every new thing they show us.

[spessmarine]

While we're wishlisting about combi-weapons, I threw this out as a suggestion in the parent thread.

 

Quote

 

Yeah, combi weapons are a warhammer staple so it feels a bit odd to muddle them down so much.
I would've gone with maybe three firing profiles shared by all to simplify them down. Anti-infantry, anti-vehicle, and regular profile maybe.

That'd would be like

- Assault 2, 24'', Str 4 D1 AP0

- Assault 1, 18'' Str 3 D1 AP-1 Anti-infantry 3+

- Assault 1, 18'' Str 5 D1 AP-1 Anti-vehicle 3+

 

Not exactly but something like that.

 

Some optionality but still easy to roll for in groups.

[Nusquam]

Immensely disappointed myself on this. What really gets me is that the general weapon homogenization isn't equal; CSM got a lot of weapons rolled into accursed but vanilla keep some separate? Then to raise my eyebrow further, with a Sternguard redux and combi-flamer LT on the horizon? Those combi plas shooting into the screamer killer in the trailer really were S4 AP0? I'm boggled.

 

With strike/sweep and plasma overcharge still present they could have at least done a dual profile, or made Combi a USR, with a strike and sweep equivalent. Even bolt rifles, and presumably plasma incinerators, have USRs to give different effects.

 

1 hour ago, Schlitzaf said:

I’ll remind folks, Combi-Bolter were a tbing in 9th too. Certain terminator aquad had them. Combi-(X) were different. Its plausible that that this is referring to the Combi-Bolter.

 

I wager they would have simply called it a combi-bolter at that point. Especially since the storm bolter is the mirror to it and what model can take either?

 

Also RIP Grav

[Interrogator Stobz]

We now know special weapons will be on some sort of separate weapons list from the datasheet, there is a good chance the datasheets will have a mention to using them. Probably at -1 to hit.

 

 

[Captain Idaho]

True; I was surprised to see that when they said all the information about a unit would be available on the datasheet. What they meant was all the information would be on the datasheet, except the information not on the datasheet. 

 

Still, I doubt there will be contradictory stats on the datasheet to the armoury card. Willing to bet 12 bolter shells and a Tau skull on it.

[Orange Knight]

Streamlining has been done well in 10th with what we've seen so far. The Bolt Rifle is one such example.

 

The Combi Weapon solution isn't perfect but it works, and more importantly- the new profile isn't redundant or found elsewhere, and offers an effective way of dealing with elite infantry.

 

I understand why some people are upset, especially if they might have focused on one particular profile. Things change from edition to edition and we should be open to that. I'm not suggesting this solution is perfect, but none of us have played the game (and believe me, I tried at Warhammer Fest) so we can't judge it yet. These new profiles and rules exist as a small piece of the bigger 10th edition machine.

[Cleon]

I'll be interested to see if the other combis like the  Deathwatch heavyflamer/bolter hybrid and any carried by named characters (Azrael?) get similar treatment or remain thematically appropriate.

[Captain Idaho]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

Streamlining has been done well in 10th with what we've seen so far. The Bolt Rifle is one such example.

 

I think they've been hit and miss. Yay bolt rifle and power weapons, nay combi weapons and unit special rules. 

 

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

 

The Combi Weapon solution isn't perfect but it works, and more importantly- the new profile isn't redundant or found elsewhere, and offers an effective way of dealing with elite infantry.

 

I understand why some people are upset, especially if they might have focused on one particular profile. Things change from edition to edition and we should be open to that. I'm not suggesting this solution is perfect, but none of us have played the game (and believe me, I tried at Warhammer Fest) so we can't judge it yet. These new profiles and rules exist as a small piece of the bigger 10th edition machine.

 

Whilst it is true none of us have played full 10th yet, veterans of the game can determine at a glance when changes are likely poor. The core rules are not so different that the game is alien and we have enough comparison to know that something might be poor.

 

As it stands, Hellblasters and Devastators make Sternguard with combi weapons obsolete. You'll do far more with Hellblasters than units using combi weapons. Even a plasma pistol is better than a combi weapon in these rules.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[Orange Knight]

I think that depends on the unit they target, and it depends on the unit using the weapons.

 

We haven't seen the datasheet for the veterans yet, but we do know that every unit shown so far has had some unique special rule that is separate from the core profile and stats.

 

What if the Sternguard can change the "anti-infantry" keyword to "anti-vehicle" or even "anti-monster"? Or what if they get a modifier to the roll required to activate the mortal wound? What if they have access to a stratagem that is key to their abilities?

 

It's all too common for people to over-react, especially at a time when we have only been shown a very curated set of snapshots of the various rules. Veterans should know not to jump to conclusions.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Orange Knight

[Toxichobbit]

6 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I think that depends on the unit they target, and it depends on the unit using the weapons.

 

We haven't seen the datasheet for the veterans yet, but we do know that every unit shown so far has had some unique special rule that is separate from the core profile and stats.

 

What if the Sternguard can change the "anti-infantry" keyword to "anti-vehicle" or even "anti-monster"? Or what if they get a modifier to the roll required to activate the mortal wound? What if they have access to a stratagem that is key to their abilities?

 

It's all too common for people to over-react, especially at a time when we have only been shown a very curated set of snapshots of the various rules. Veterans should know not to jump to conclusions.

 

You're not wrong - we really need more context for everything. But to play devil's advocate, GW have a three decade long history of making a pig's ear out of 40k so over-reacting in a negative way comes with the territory. I don't think there is any other games company in the world who has been through so many editions & drastic rules resets as GW, mostly to fix the issues they've created. At this point, I always assume the worst because after 9 editions they still can't get it right. Why would 10th be any different.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Toxichobbit

[Orange Knight]

Oh I'm under no illusion about GW - they could completely screw the next edition up. They made 9th into the most tedious version of the game I had played in my 27 years in the hobby.

 

I'm specifically optimistic about the Index period of 10th. Once the codex books start rolling out, the old evils of creep an bloat will once again make themselves known lol.

[Karhedron]

10 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

As it stands, Hellblasters and Devastators make Sternguard with combi weapons obsolete. You'll do far more with Hellblasters than units using combi weapons. Even a plasma pistol is better than a combi weapon in these rules.

 

In a vacuum that is true but we don't know the relative points costs yet. Hellblaster cost around 50% more than Strunguard in 9th edition. If there is a similar discrepancy in 10th, that might still create a valuable niche for Sternguard. Hellblasters might be more flexible but Sternguards' ability to dish out MWs on a 4+ to elite infantry does give them a particular niche.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Not sure how we can argue that they work as an elite killer, whether in a vacuum or not.

2 shots at 12", missing one, failing to wound 1/2 of those and only doing 1 Damage that will be saved most of the time. That's really poor.

Now relying on a mortal on a 6 to kill half a Marine is not a strategy strong enough to take this weapon as it's currently shown.

[Sir Clausel]

They will do mortals on 4+ as anti makes the 4+ a crit and devastating wounds works off crits.

[TrawlingCleaner]

45 minutes ago, Sir Clausel said:

They will do mortals on 4+ as anti makes the 4+ a crit and devastating wounds works off crits.

Dingdingding, Sir Clausel gets it

 

They're mortal wound guns vs Infantry, they still do mortal wounds vs Vehicles on 6s, that's why they haven't got AP or high strength.

On top of that, we only know 1 SM strat not the other 5 which we have no idea what they do or how they interact with things. We have no idea what any of the Enhancements are yet or what some of the characters give to units they join.

 

Dirty maths ahead

If you give say a 10 man unit of Sternguard all combi weapons and Oath of Moment into Intercessors:

In rapid fire range you hit on average: 17 times (13+4 rerolls)

You wound on average: 12 times (8+4 rerolls) so 12MW or 6 dead marines or 4* Dead Termies with no saves

 

Outside of rapid fire you do 6 MW

 

With the reduction of AP, it's likely more Damage than they would have been doing anyways. There could be a strat that add 1 to damage (all of sudden doing 24MW) or a +1 to hit (19 hits, 14 MW).

 

It must be bad though, they've changed

(A light jest)

Edited May 11, 2023 by TrawlingCleaner
Corrected number of termies dead

[Orange Knight]

12MW wound be 4 Dead Terminators with no save. It would be 4 Dead Custodians, potentially.

 

It's a very interesting profile, and we really don't know how it will interact with any other rules as we haven't seen the full spectrum of stratagems or unit datasheets. There could be other modifiers that make it even more threatening. 

[TrawlingCleaner]

4 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

12MW wound be 4 Dead Terminators with no save. It would be 4 Dead Custodians, potentially.

 

Whoops, very dirty maths as it turns out!

[Karhedron]

With regards to Sternguard in particular, we have the following snippet from the Warcom article:

 

Quote

Renowned for their unerring proficiency with bolt weapons, Sternguard Veterans are fearsome combatants drawn from their Chapter’s 1st Company and issued with special ammunition designed to combat the Tyranid threat.

 

We don't know if all Sternguard get Combiweapons but it looks like Special Ammo is going to be a thing to some extent. Maybe they can choose to exchange Anti-Infantry for Anti-X on a turn-by-turn basis. Too many unknowns but I don't think we should write Sternguard off too soon.

[Captain Idaho]

No one thinks because something has changed we just don't like it. That's dismissive. There are plenty of changes people like, but combi weapons aren't one of them for many people.

 

Applying Oath of Moment to Devastator or Hellblaster squads will cause more damage, so it's not a positive for combi weapons.

 

20 shots, without Oath of Moment, causing 5 Mortal Wounds against infantry is pretty pants really. If everything else was equally poor then sure, but looking at the weapons rules we have, we know plasma is better than this against heavy infantry and we know Hellblasters are better than normal plasma by virtue of Cawl.

 

I like my Sternguard and want to be able to use them fairly without handicapping myself (I used them for years when they were subpar), so sure that's something I'll be happy to be wrong about.

 

But it's not panicking or jumping to conclusions to see the combi weapon rules as being terrible. What is jumping to conclusions is saying "we haven't seen the rules in full, there could be something extra that makes a combi weapon worthwhile again" with no evidence.

 

The evidence we have points in one direction right now.

[Guest Triszin]

I like the combined Profile.

I think it just needs an alt fire option.

- Anti infantry, devastating wounds

 

- Anti vehicle lethal wounds

 

 

This is reducing 5-6 profiles into 1.

[Orange Knight]

@Captain Idaho

 

Do you know the profile and cost of the Hellblaster or Sternguard squads? Or what rules can be stacked on them?

 

I certainly don't. It's entirely possible that Hellblasters will be more threatening, but if so they will probably cost more. I personally didn't think I would see people dismiss a method of getting 10-12 guaranteed mortal wounds a turn as "pretty pants" lol.

 

And 20 Plasma Shots in rapid fire range with Oath of Moment would remove 3.5 Terminators (assuming overcharged with 2 damage), so around the same as these combi weapons.

 

@Triszin

 

Yeah, I think an alternative profile could definitely be interesting. Doing MW on vehicles on 4+ would be too good, however. We're enjoying the prospect of more durable Tanks but this would be in opposition to that. Perhaps on a 5+ would be more balanced. 

Edited May 11, 2023 by Orange Knight

[Toxichobbit]

3 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

Oh I'm under no illusion about GW - they could completely screw the next edition up. They made 9th into the most tedious version of the game I had played in my 27 years in the hobby.

 

I'm specifically optimistic about the Index period of 10th. Once the codex books start rolling out, the old evils of creep an bloat will once again make themselves known lol.

 

It's sad, isn't it. I was so positive about 9th because the core rules were really good. But they completely destroyed the game with supplement after supplement bloating the rules and Codex creep, to the point where most people had enough and just wanted a new edition. And the cycle will continue, no matter how good the edition is at the start they will destroy it with something, be it detachments like 7th, rules bloat like 9th or just some good old fashioned Codex creep.

[Kallas]

Assuming Oath of Moment on the target to make CWs put out enough wounds to be useful is not a winning strategy. Other units benefit from OOM too, and it may very well be needed in places the Sternguard CWs aren't, such as vs a vehicle where your Meltas are.

 

Also, some of the math above assumes Sternguard CWs are 3+ to hit: this is a big assumption, because the Terminator Captain is 3+ while his Storm Bolter is 2+ (so CWs clearly come with a baked in -1); and the Terminator Librarian is 4+ (with Storm Bolter at 3+). Since Sternguard and Librarians have had the same BS for many years now, and Captains have typically had higher WS/BS, then it's much more reasonable to assume Sternguard will have BS4+ CWs.

 

On that assumption, the numbers that @TrawlingCleaner put up are too high: with OOM, 20 CW shots will cause 11.25 MWs.

 

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

Perhaps on a 5+ would be more balanced. 

Perhaps they should just use the weapons that those Combi-Weapons have. like Meltaguns and Plasma Guns, instead of this weird hybrid that makes no sense.

 

If it was presented as Hellfire Bolts from the Bolter it'd make way more sense.

[Kallas]

1 hour ago, Triszin said:

I like the combined Profile.

I think it just needs an alt fire option.

- Anti infantry, devastating wounds

- Anti vehicle lethal wounds

 

This is reducing 5-6 profiles into 1.

I think this is just as bad as any previous rules bloat. Instead of using the profiles that already exist for the separate guns, we've now got two more profiles to represent...those same guns. The whole point of streamlining weapons into fewer profiles is to remove profiles that are really close together and don't really offer much variety (eg, Bolt Rifle vs Auto Bolt Rifle).

 

A Flamer and a Plasma Gun are very different; and so are Combi-Flamers and Combi-Plasmas.

[Antarius]

15 minutes ago, Toxichobbit said:

 

It's sad, isn't it. I was so positive about 9th because the core rules were really good. But they completely destroyed the game with supplement after supplement bloating the rules and Codex creep, to the point where most people had enough and just wanted a new edition. And the cycle will continue, no matter how good the edition is at the start they will destroy it with something, be it detachments like 7th, rules bloat like 9th or just some good old fashioned Codex creep.

I fully intend to stay in "index mode", assuming the initial game is good.