Wh40k 10th Edition Combi-weapons in 10th

[TrawlingCleaner]

42 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

No one thinks because something has changed we just don't like it. That's dismissive. There are plenty of changes people like, but combi weapons aren't one of them for many people.

 

Applying Oath of Moment to Devastator or Hellblaster squads will cause more damage, so it's not a positive for combi weapons.

 

20 shots, without Oath of Moment, causing 5 Mortal Wounds against infantry is pretty pants really. If everything else was equally poor then sure, but looking at the weapons rules we have, we know plasma is better than this against heavy infantry and we know Hellblasters are better than normal plasma by virtue of Cawl.

 

I like my Sternguard and want to be able to use them fairly without handicapping myself (I used them for years when they were subpar), so sure that's something I'll be happy to be wrong about.

 

But it's not panicking or jumping to conclusions to see the combi weapon rules as being terrible. What is jumping to conclusions is saying "we haven't seen the rules in full, there could be something extra that makes a combi weapon worthwhile again" with no evidence.

 

The evidence we have points in one direction right now.

 

You are, of course, allowed to take whatever I say as dismissive. I was referencing the old adage of: "The only things Wargamers hate is things staying the same and things changing". Throwing that much raw maths into a post makes me want to even it out with a bit of humour

 

20 combi shots without Oath of Moment doing 6 MW (assumably into marines) is better than 20 Bolt Rifle shots (3W dealt after armour saves, assuming not in cover). You'd need 20 Intercessors or 40 bolt rifle shots to do the same damage (on average)

 

If you'd like to compare them to Plasma gun shots:

Non-overcharged plasma is: 13 hits, 8 wounds, 5 failed saves

Overcharged plasma is: 13 hits (3 MW on unit), 10 wounds, 8 failed saves (8 dead marines)

 

Into T3 bodies, the Combi will also just do a normal wound on 3+ too which is an added bonus. The Combi will also pip the plasma if (big if) there's any infantry that are T8+ (I don't expect many, if any)

 

These stats aren't outright better and they're not outright worse, they're a much different beast. We've yet to see what the stats are for Sternguard combis are, there's a good chance they're different or have a unit rule or strats or a load of other variables. The evidence right now, doesn't point anywhere as so much of this is based on assumption that we know everything

[Captain Idaho]

@Orange Knight I do know the profile of plasma pistols, which are consistent with 8th and 9th, so it is easy to establish that Hellblaster plasma won't be worse than that, if not better.

[Special Officer Doofy]

I get the feeling GW is patting themselves on the back like "we fixed the combi issue of only putting one of each in a box and then started to limit wargear to the box..."

 

Like it somehow wasn't an issue they created to begin with haha. Touché GW. Touché...

[Captain Idaho]

1 hour ago, TrawlingCleaner said:

 

You are, of course, allowed to take whatever I say as dismissive. I was referencing the old adage of: "The only things Wargamers hate is things staying the same and things changing". Throwing that much raw maths into a post makes me want to even it out with a bit of humour

 

 

I am sorry if I took it the wrong way. That's on me.

 

And yes, maths is sorcery. Therefore you are a witch and automatically lose the argument. 

 

Maths wise (from your ritual obscenities that I presume you used to determine the results) I'd say 6 Mortal Wounds vs 8 dead Marines does lead to the plasma, though obviously against Terminators that's better.

 

Which I suppose is a factor we will have to consider. 

[TrawlingCleaner]

Into Intercessors, Overcharged plasma wins the day for sure but the tougher targets is where the Combis start to shine.

 

Vs Terminators:

Non-overcharged plasma is: 13 hits, 8 wounds, 4 failed saves (1 Dead termie and 1W dealt to another)

Overcharged plasma is: 13 hits (3 MW on unit), 8 wounds, 4 failed saves (2 Dead)

Combis: 13 hits, 6 wounds (2 Dead )

So essentially blow for blow the same, maths wise - until you start to factor in OoM where it starts to pip it:

 

With OoM:

Non-overcharged plasma is: 17 hits, 15 wounds, 7 failed saves ( 2 Dead and 1 Dealt a wound)

Overcharged plasma is: 17 hits (1 MW on unit), 15 wounds, 7 failed saves (3 Dead and 1 Dealt 2 wounds)

Combis: 17 hits, 12 wounds (4 Dead)

 

As I mentioned earlier, if you start giving these +1 to hit or +1 dmg the gap grows. Or Sustained Hits and a Reroll aura from Abaddon, that does sound pretty nasty

[Nusquam]

Votanns L7 missiles got a strike and sweep profile. I still say that's what combis should have been, a strike and sweep equivalent, if not reverting back to cheaper 1 shot versions pre 8. It's getting more and more strange to me what combis are. I think the streamlining is suffering from compartmentalization; not all the rules writers were in sync as to where to streamline and how.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Lolz, I'm glad I got that wrong. I totally missed AI4+/DW create MW on 4+.

Thanks for all the clarity and discussion. 

 

I still preferred them the old way, I have CWs on my Tactical Sgts so math is less reliable. 

But good to know they'll be OK. 

Edited May 11, 2023 by Interrogator Stobz

[Orange Knight]

*edit*

 

Posted in wrong topic

Edited May 11, 2023 by Orange Knight

[Ming the Merciless]

16 hours ago, Nusquam said:

 Also RIP Grav

 

Tor Garadon?

[Sir Clausel]

Comparing hellblasters to sternguards dmg wise is very interesting. But hellblasters should pretty much always come out on top when they overcharge because they can kill them selves. That is a factor people havent talked that much about. And there seems to be way less ways for them to reroll the 1. So its risky for them even with OoM since you reroll 2s to which could be rolled into1s.

 

Sometimes straight up dmg is not the only comparison worth making. But i do feel if sternguard dont get something good with the combiweapons they will just feel bad. 

I hope they will be usefull as i love sternguard and their whole "bolter kills everything" attitude

Edited May 11, 2023 by Sir Clausel

[Khornestar]

Not directly related to the weapon but more regarding the unit bearing it; for something like sternguard it might make sense for them to have higher objective control values than hellblasters, differentiating them even more.

[Sea Creature]

That’s a bit of a stretch to say at this point.

[Evil Eye]

The thing that's frustrating me a bit about 10th so far is that they're doing abstraction/book-keeping reduction on the wrong things. Like, on the one hand, they're doing stuff like this, which I won't lie I am not a fan of at all. One of the main draws of combi-weapons IMO is that they offer an element of decision-making; a Chaos Terminator squad with combi-meltas and a chainfist or two is going to thoroughly ruin the day of any tanks that are unfortunate enough to be in range, but obviously getting into range is a gamble. It's high-risk high-reward play that can either leave an otherwise tough tank as a heap of slag, or fail miserably and result in some dead Terminators. Doubly so if you go by the older editions where combi-weapon attachments only get one shot, meaning flubbing the roll is potentially a major blow. Having them as just a generic better gun seems less like streamlining and more like lowest-common-denominator-pandering oversimplification.

 

On the other hand there's still way too many weapon profiles, with every Tom, Dick and Harry having his own unique gun profile. A simple "armoury" system where you have a list of guns you can take, which have the same profile regardless of who uses them seems simpler both from a book-keeping standpoint and a balance standpoint? "This is a flamer, it does X and costs Y points and can be taken by Z" seems a hell of a lot better than "A Primaris Discombobulator can take a Seinfeldian-pattern Crispinator Rifle, which does X and costs Y, but a Primaris Defenestrator can also take the same weapon but it does Z and costs A".

 

I dunno, I think they're trying to oversimplify the wrong parts and in doing so ironically making the game overcomplex AND underdetailed at the same time. At least, with regards to guns. I actually prefer the approach to CCWs we've seen with, say, CSMs; being able to take a heavy power weapon that can be modeled as a fist, hammer, maul or whatever you want is cool, and I hope they do something similar with Plague Marines. However, it should be noted that guns are inherently more complex and need more detailed rules than melee weapons. Even a Grot Blasta is a lot more complex than a combat knife after all- one is a (dubiously constructed) firearm, the other is still a sharpened piece of metal.

[BitsHammer]

14 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

I think that depends on the unit they target, and it depends on the unit using the weapons.

 

We haven't seen the datasheet for the veterans yet, but we do know that every unit shown so far has had some unique special rule that is separate from the core profile and stats.

 

What if the Sternguard can change the "anti-infantry" keyword to "anti-vehicle" or even "anti-monster"? Or what if they get a modifier to the roll required to activate the mortal wound? What if they have access to a stratagem that is key to their abilities?

 

It's all too common for people to over-react, especially at a time when we have only been shown a very curated set of snapshots of the various rules. Veterans should know not to jump to conclusions.

The rules always look their worst the first time you see them.

[BluejayJunior]

3 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

The thing that's frustrating me a bit about 10th so far is that they're doing abstraction/book-keeping reduction on the wrong things. Like, on the one hand, they're doing stuff like this, which I won't lie I am not a fan of at all. One of the main draws of combi-weapons IMO is that they offer an element of decision-making; a Chaos Terminator squad with combi-meltas and a chainfist or two is going to thoroughly ruin the day of any tanks that are unfortunate enough to be in range, but obviously getting into range is a gamble. It's high-risk high-reward play that can either leave an otherwise tough tank as a heap of slag, or fail miserably and result in some dead Terminators. Doubly so if you go by the older editions where combi-weapon attachments only get one shot, meaning flubbing the roll is potentially a major blow. Having them as just a generic better gun seems less like streamlining and more like lowest-common-denominator-pandering oversimplification.

 

On the other hand there's still way too many weapon profiles, with every Tom, Dick and Harry having his own unique gun profile. A simple "armoury" system where you have a list of guns you can take, which have the same profile regardless of who uses them seems simpler both from a book-keeping standpoint and a balance standpoint? "This is a flamer, it does X and costs Y points and can be taken by Z" seems a hell of a lot better than "A Primaris Discombobulator can take a Seinfeldian-pattern Crispinator Rifle, which does X and costs Y, but a Primaris Defenestrator can also take the same weapon but it does Z and costs A".

 

I dunno, I think they're trying to oversimplify the wrong parts and in doing so ironically making the game overcomplex AND underdetailed at the same time. At least, with regards to guns. I actually prefer the approach to CCWs we've seen with, say, CSMs; being able to take a heavy power weapon that can be modeled as a fist, hammer, maul or whatever you want is cool, and I hope they do something similar with Plague Marines. However, it should be noted that guns are inherently more complex and need more detailed rules than melee weapons. Even a Grot Blasta is a lot more complex than a combat knife after all- one is a (dubiously constructed) firearm, the other is still a sharpened piece of metal.

Can you name a weapon they’ve shown that actually works differently between different units? The closest thing is the bolter which is rapid fire for Sisters but has 2 shots built in for Astartes. Which was what it basically was in 9th after extra rules. 

[Dr. Clock]

As someone with combi-weapons on 5+ Salamander sergeants, I really liked being able to keep '5-man double special weapon' tactical units...

 

That said, I appreciate the hesitation to give out pretty complex 'multiple weapon settings' that in effect almost never get used. When I take a melta-combi sarge, it's the melta part that I'm showing up for. Same with plasma, and on flamers it's just a... better flamer!

 

Same thing with terminators tbh - from a rules standpoint the bolter part of the weapon basically was just never used. That suggests it is a design failure.

 

As they're widening the gap between 'infantry' and 'vehicle' in terms of S, W and Sv characteristics, it makes sense that combi-weapons get glossed as 'a better basic rifle' more than as 'dedicated special weapon that could optionally be a basic weapon if you use it wrong'. Their existence in their current form begged the question as to why they weren't just special weapons to begin with: right now a melta-combi is just a melta gun with extra steps. When they were 'one-use' they also felt wrong, but having an amalgamated profile so it's more like an occasionally effective 'auxiliary/underslung option' to a gun that's primarily a bolter leaves me perfectly whelmed. And now I can just make whatever combi-weapon I want from a modeling perspective without worrying that the loadout in the squad isn't perfectly tuned.

 

Essentially, reducing incentives to micro-manage build options or go to the secondary market for bespoke 'oops all melta' units hopefully means that they can keep the different units and loadouts more balanced against one another due to units' effective roles not being decided more by armament choice than by the 'basic chassis and role'. 

 

For me, a unit of sternguard where everyone is modeled with a different combi-weapon is way cooler than one with 'just the same thing for efficiency'. I do tend to think that if the price of more diverse modeling options is less diverse weapon rules/options inside each datasheet,  it's a cost I'm willing to bear.

 

So it goes...

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

 

[spessmarine]

50 minutes ago, BluejayJunior said:

Can you name a weapon they’ve shown that actually works differently between different units? The closest thing is the bolter which is rapid fire for Sisters but has 2 shots built in for Astartes. Which was what it basically was in 9th after extra rules. 

 

Close but not quite example for me is that the Land Raider has godhammer lascannons as opposed to what you would expect which would be a pair of Twin-Linked lascannons. They decided the Land Raider needs more shots so its paired lascannons operate differently than you'd expect.

 

I am not opposed to the variance in weapons. If you are going to print them on every sheet might as well bake stat differences in so you don't need to copy-paste the same rules and add rules to ignore rules onto things. (This unit ignores Heavy, or this unit has a bonus to hit to offset the -1 to hit that goes with its weapons)

I am familiar with AoS so this isn't out of the ordinary for me.

[Arikel]

4 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

"A Primaris Discombobulator can take a Seinfeldian-pattern Crispinator Rifle, which does X and costs Y, but a Primaris Defenestrator can also take the same weapon but it does Z and costs A".

Apart from the over the top, out of left field lore the Primaris rolled in with, the too cool for school naming conventions still irk me. I can see the Defenestrator Squad now, each carrying their own little tower that they roll the foe up to the top floor before pushing them out the window to their “better than the first born pansies ever could” doom.

 

Thanks for the laugh, Master Eye :)

[chapter master 454]

Combi-Weapons have been somewhat of an odd duck...strangely iconic but yet...not exactly mainline and commonly seen, more piggy-backing off boltguns however numerous art pieces do depict a combi-weapon, most commonly I believe combi-flamers when the characters are somewhat generic. By all accounts, this process of just strapping two guns together is something that has been done in real life and 40k took that idea, applied a little bit of 5 year old engineering and BOOM, you have Combi-Weapons.

 

My greviance is primarily the fact the weapon doesn't really reflect anything known UNLESS you want to call it Volkite. Hellfire is the famous round made for tyranids, but was found that when you throw highly corrosive acid at things...highly corrosive acid tends to do damage to things that aren't of metal. So I would of put Hellfire as a round that would of had 2 Anti-X rules to it, Anti-Infantry 2+ and Anti-Monster 4+ (they are bigger and tougher, they can take a small acid bath...as a treat!)

 

Plasma would have hazardous...its most famous trait bar none...we all know plasma as being good at killing...just not specifically always the enemy!

Flamers are the anti-horde weapon of choice. To be honest, surprised these weapons didn't also get blast. Not needing to hit with these was always their key draw.

Melta...you got a big game problem? It ain't going down to mass bolter fire? mhmm...take this bad boy within 6" o' that there sucker and pull the trigger and hope you hit, that's the hard part. If you manage that, problem ain't one anymore.

 

Grav is a new kid on the block but it kind of took the spot of being really really good at dealing with specifically heavy infantry...the thing plasma was meant for but decided to get a degree in tank hunting and career swapped so the Execs hired this guy...he's qualified and got the spirit but...he doesn't really fit in well.

 

As I note; none of these traits are exhibited by this "Combi-Weapon". Heck, I would take some crazy creation that has Torrent and Melta but the range of 6". But Anti-infantry and Devastating Wounds? Again with that rate of fire, it's Volkite and you ain't changing my mind. Why they would Ninja-return Volkite to 40k proper like this is beyond me...ain't even like they haven't brought it back in VERY select places like Neo-Volkite pistol of the Bladeguard guy.

 

To be honest as people mentioned, it isn't like they could of just made the Boltgun component hit normally but the special weapon part hits one worse (4+ instead of 3+) and make it a choice, not a "you can fire both". I always felt that was weird, I always imagined the marine letting loose bolt rounds then when he sees that Carnifex barrelling down, he just casually flips the dial on his weapon to switch the trigger mechanism, a warm glow emits from his weapon and now bolts of plasma start going down range at the bigger foe.

 

Hope this isn't a thing but certainly looks like rain to me.

[Magos Takatus]

10 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

 

Primaris Defenestrator

I need to see these guys in action Sparta-kicking people out of windows. 

 

I think I agree with the consensus, this is a terrible way to represent combi-weapons. The fact that they most likely took several different ideas for portraying them in the rules and this was somehow the best one astounds me. As Chapter Master 454 said, this profile doesn't represent any of the current combi-weapon options well and feels more like a Volkite weapons than a flamer or a meltagun. I'm glad my current armies don't have combi weapons because I think this would just bother me every time I try Overwatch with flamers that aren't flamers.

[Orange Knight]

One positive of the combi weapons being rolled into a single profile is that all those 30k HQ models with combi-volkites can now be used in 40k without any need of conversion or a statement of "counts-as".

 

Wonderful models like this one no longer need any conversion work:

 

 

 

[Evil Eye]

5 hours ago, Arikel said:

I can see the Defenestrator Squad now, each carrying their own little tower that they roll the foe up to the top floor before pushing them out the window to their “better than the first born pansies ever could” doom.

Nah, they carry Cawl-pattern Windowblasters that launch heat-seeking windows, enabling the Defenestrators to have enemies forced through windows from afar. They also make Assault Defenestrators who carry Power Windows for close combat, with one being posed doing a tactical reload slamming a new pane into the frame.

 

...I should make this as a printable model...

[Mandragola]

Speaking as someone who likes things to be wysiwyg, and having spent a lot of time and money in the past (quite a while ago now) converting specific combi weapons, I like the idea of having generic combi weapons. Now, you can use models out of the box without worrying too much about what every tiny underslung gun is.

 

I'm less sure whether the actual rules are good. They seem like a bad choice on models that can have other good options but maybe a good idea for sergeants and stuff. Actually though, the standard bolt rifle compares pretty favourably to these things, so I'm not sure.

 

Do sternguard have normal combi-weapons or a better one to reflect that they're based on bolt rifles? I don't remember seeing their rules.

[Karhedron]

28 minutes ago, Mandragola said:

Do sternguard have normal combi-weapons or a better one to reflect that they're based on bolt rifles? I don't remember seeing their rules.

 

That's a good question, we haven't seen their rules yet so we don't really know. The new kit has a couple of combi-weapons but is the whole squad meant to be carrying them? The only hint we have so far is that they seem to retain some sort of special ammo rule. I would really like it is their rule allows them to switch from Anti-Infantry to Anti-X each turn but that might make them a bit too good.

 

The squad in Leviathan contains 2 combi-weapons, 2 standard bolters and a heavy bolter.

 

Quote

Renowned for their unerring proficiency with bolt weapons, Sternguard Veterans are fearsome combatants drawn from their Chapter’s 1st Company and issued with special ammunition designed to combat the Tyranid threat.

 

[LostTemplar]

If two bolter-like weapons have different stats, the bolt rifle and the boltgun, I see no justifiable reason why combi weapons need to be merged