Wh40k 10th Edition Combi-weapons in 10th

[Captain Idaho]

It makes zero sense for combi weapons on characters to be Mortal Wounds generators yet the squads get melta, Plasma and flamer variants.

[Khornestar]

So wait and find out? And then whatever comes after. Adapting, quitting 40k, etc.

 

Is the goal some catharsis via discussion here, or what?

 

There’s a chance it changes from index to codex but that would almost be a hilariously awful idea. 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Khornestar

[Rain]

6 minutes ago, Khornestar said:

Is the goal some catharsis via discussion here, or what?

Welcome to 90% of internet discussion. The other 10% is personal attacks. 

[chapter master 454]

29 minutes ago, Rain said:

Welcome to 90% of internet discussion. The other 10% is personal attacks. 

 

I'm in this post and I don't like it, I feel attacked! Attacked I say, as if with something we don't know the full details of fully yet. How dare you!

 

-safety notice: this is a joke, a jest. A humourous go of things. Banter if one will-

[Captain Idaho]

There's plenty of good reasons to raise concerns and complaints about Games Workshop on a forum. Probably as many as there reasons to praise and congratulate Games Workshop on a forum.

[Lexington]

2 hours ago, BitsHammer said:

They have obfuscated information and even hidden information in the past in order to not off everything before the launch.

I am an old man and can forget about things sometimes, but I don’t think GW’s ever “hidden” something by putting out deliberately false stats? Multiple times in a row?

 

I dunno, it really seems to me that - improbable as it sounds - this is how Combi-Weapons are going to work, at least for these “Index”-style Datasheets. Maybe they’ll change it up back to the way things were when the Codexes hit, either because of the generally negative reaction, or because that was already their plan anyway.

[Khornestar]

Could anyone help the ding dong that is me with the math of a 10-man chaos terminators unit armed with combi weapons?

 

Versus, say, GEQ, MEQ, and TEQ?

[BitsHammer]

2 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

It makes zero sense for combi weapons on characters to be Mortal Wounds generators yet the squads get melta, Plasma and flamer variants.

It does if they want to restrict which combi-weapons a model can have.

 

Look, I'm not going to tell people how to feel but it seems like we're jumping to conclusions and I haven't warmed up for that event.

[Captain Idaho]

@Khornestar Using the same stats presented in the Space Marines reveals so far?

 

So 20 rapid fire shots hitting on 4s = 10 hits.

 

10 hits turns into 5 Mortal Wounds against infantry.

 

Done. That's maths even I can do. Anything more complicated and my brain leaks.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[BitsHammer]

22 minutes ago, Lexington said:

I am an old man and can forget about things sometimes, but I don’t think GW’s ever “hidden” something by putting out deliberately false stats? Multiple times in a row?

 

I dunno, it really seems to me that - improbable as it sounds - this is how Combi-Weapons are going to work, at least for these “Index”-style Datasheets. Maybe they’ll change it up back to the way things were when the Codexes hit, either because of the generally negative reaction, or because that was already their plan anyway.

They have given us incomplete rules and not been fully clear on things. I'm not saying the stats are wrong, but the name might be intentionally vague to hide a new weapon type.

[Khornestar]

34 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

@Khornestar Using the same stats presented in the Space Marines reveals so far?

 

So 20 rapid fire shots hitting on 4s = 10 hits.

 

10 hits turns into 5 Mortal Wounds against infantry.

 

Done. That's maths even I can do. Anything more complicated and my brain leaks.

Even better with dark pact for exploding 6’s. *rubs hands together fiendishly*

[Doghouse]

I think it's extremely possible that these cards and profiles are just a jumping off point and given the living rules approach of 9th and the reset Index system of 8th it could well be a case of us getting lite rules on launch only to see the proper rules drop with each codex. Not saying that is the case but it seems plausible to me, the only downside to this though would be people using the combi-weapon that they think looks cool only to later have the rug pulled from under them.

[TrawlingCleaner]

I would agree that it's an odd change if it was changed in isolation but it isn't in isolation.

A Melta gun is S9 now, Plasma is S8 and S7.

Rhinos (one of the weakest in the SM armoury) are now T9, everything else has gone up too. Combi weapons with special weapon profiles would now basically just be dedicated Anti-Infantry weapons anyways as they're pretty hard pushed to do much

 

Giving the distinction between special/combi weapons and heavy weapons is good IMO, it gives you a reason to take tanks, heavy weapons etc rather than just tooled up "do everything" squads.

 

As with every rule there's still an element of "Mouth Feel", there's some rules that people just can't get on with or just doesn't suit their playstyle. Saying that, I'd definitely wait to judge something until we have the Index in hand and some games under our collective belts 

[Interrogator Stobz]

There are going to be a Lot of T7, 8 and 9 critters and light vehicles out there.

There will be a huge need for Plasma and Melta.

It's not all T4 and T12.

 

Also, Tactical Marine squads Are tooled up to do everything. They aren't Cawl and Guilliman's inflexible fools.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Interrogator Stobz

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

What I hate about these previews is that they're for a free index. I expect GW to cut some corners on all of the free rules because they have a ton of fractions to cover, and at the end of the day they want me buying the new books for my fraction on their respective release dates. It's frustrating because I'll be waiting at least a year for my Wolves and SoB but I've also been on the fence with 40k for a while so free rules are pretty easy to commit to. 

 

My main point though is that Combi-weapons make sense as something that they could make generic rules for each index, and then address them in each fractions paid rules.

[Captain Idaho]

It seems like a problem hurting Firstborn and Chaos more than Primaris, except potentially Sternguard. 

 

Although we don't know what their rules will be just yet.

[OttoVonAwesome]

19 hours ago, Lexington said:

I am an old man and can forget about things sometimes, but I don’t think GW’s ever “hidden” something by putting out deliberately false stats? Multiple times in a row?

 

I dunno, it really seems to me that - improbable as it sounds - this is how Combi-Weapons are going to work, at least for these “Index”-style Datasheets. Maybe they’ll change it up back to the way things were when the Codexes hit, either because of the generally negative reaction, or because that was already their plan anyway.

There's zero chance though since it's very likely the Space Marine codex was finished months ago being first out of the gate it won't take any feedback into account as per usual and why it sometimes gets a second run in an edition. Combi-weapons are a worse version of a nemesis bolter and that's terrible. Primaris units all have thier weapons mushed together now too wich is also terrible.

 

GW been hellbent on dumbing 40k down for awhile now first with the 1 page rules in 8th edition and now it's 2 pages out 2 pages in simplfied not simple but actually yeah it's simple cuase we took away almost every desicion beyond unit selection and even that is overly simplified. I mean we don't even have squad leaders anymore they are just a guy with a different weapon or in some cases just a guy you painted a red helmet on so sniping them off doesn't even effect the unit's leadership stat.

 

I was pretty stoked for 10th before but more I see the more I'm like welp might as well start another Legion project.

[Orange Knight]

It's far too early to declare anything as a categorical success OR failure.

 

This edition is bringing around a lot of changes (but the core rules are still basically the same as 9th).

 

I don't agree at all with the sentiment that 10th is dumbed down. If you compare the datasheet of units that existed in 9th, you can clearly see that 10th edition has more unique rules and abilities, whilst some of the weapon options have been consolidated.

 

You don't have to like every change, but hold off from spiralling into negativity until you have actually played the game a good number of times.

[Kallas]

On 5/13/2023 at 10:53 PM, BitsHammer said:

Boltgun and boltgun. One gets 2 shots at 24" the other gets 1 shot at 24".

We have an example that not everything is 1:1 just like GW told us they would do.

Hang on, I thought you said that two data points weren't enough.

On 5/13/2023 at 2:55 PM, BitsHammer said:

Two data points hardly forms a pattern.

Or was this not you..?

 

On 5/13/2023 at 10:43 PM, BitsHammer said:

Characters having different weapons happens quite regularly. Like having free master-crafted wargear.

The problem I have with this is that Characters having free master-crafted wargear is still internally consistent with how those bits of wargear function: the Character's MC Power Sword is +1D over a Power Sword; and every other MC Power Sword is also +1D.

 

These Combi-Weapons are wildly different from the Special weapons that we have already seen stats for, which is not consistent. Two Bolters being slightly different based on the user (eg, lower BS, and Rapid Fire vs 2A) is different, but at least justifiably so (eg, one user is literally physically stronger so can handle the recoil better, plus y'know, superhuman capabilities). A Combi-Flamer that is not Torrent, does not Ignore Cover and has 1A with RF1 instead of d6A with the ability to cause Mortal Wounds is massively different from the Flamer; a Meltagun that is 9/-4/d6 [Melta 2] is extremely different from a Combi-Melta which...is an anti-infantry-only gun.

 

On 5/13/2023 at 11:48 PM, Khornestar said:

Is the goal some catharsis via discussion here, or what?

Only comments that praise GW are allowed? We're all sitting on our hands waiting for launch; everyone is finding something to talk about, and not everyone is happy with everything in the game that we've seen so far.

 

For some of us, yes, it kind of is cathartic to openly discuss why we think this change is bad. That said, I think 10th is shaping up mostly positively, albeit I have reservations (especially around the Codex release schedule) about stuff (like Combi-Weapons).

 

On 5/13/2023 at 11:48 PM, Khornestar said:

There’s a chance it changes from index to codex but that would almost be a hilariously awful idea. 

It would only be awful because it would be rapidly changing how things work: but the ultimate issue comes from why they felt the need to change them in the 9->10 move in the first place. Combi-Weapons are not a difficult concept to understand, and we have had the simple solution to multi-profile weapons since 8th (at least, I didn't play 6/7th) with "choose a profile when you attack" - which is still present on other weapons (eg, Morvenn Vahl's melee), and even on all melee weapons (ie, you must fight with only one weapon).

[BitsHammer]

The boltgun point wasn't to establish a pattern but rather point out that you can't rely on weapons having the same name to be identical. I wasn't establishing a pattern but showing that the pattern isn't something you can count on.

 

As for the Combi-weapon, you know what else we have seen? What it actually looks like on the models and and is trying to represent.

[Interrogator Stobz]

An argument based upon we don't know everything yet is a massive fail.

 

We have two units with the same weapon name which have the same stats.

It is safe to Presume others will be the same or similar. That Presumption can still be wrong but it's based upon known facts.

 

Now Assuming that other Combi Weapons will be wildly different without any evidence at all to support it other than wait and see is a logical failure. 

Now, even assumptions are right occasionally. 

 

So let's not die on the hill of who is more right; Presumptions beat Assumptions.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Interrogator Stobz

[Cruor Vault]

Much of the 10th edition start rules have leaked!

 

https://imgur.com/a/yuLGn5n

 

In the sample datasheets page the Space Marine Sergeant may replace their bolter with "one of the options from the Combi-weapons list".

 

I wonder if perhaps the simplified version we have seen in the previews is just for combat patrol/starter rules?

Edited May 17, 2023 by Cruor Vault

[BitsHammer]

4 minutes ago, Cruor Vault said:

Much of the 10th edition start rules have leaked!

 

https://imgur.com/a/yuLGn5n

 

In the sample datasheets page the Space Marine Sergeant may replace their bolter with "one of the options from the Combi-weapons list".

 

I wonder if perhaps the simplified version we have seen in the previews is just for combat patrol/starter rules?

Possible.

 

Either way I am claiming vindication for saying people where jumping the gun early.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

You mean the sky isn't falling‽‽

[Kallas]

That is great news!