Wh40k 10th Edition Faction Focus: Leagues of Votann

[ZeroWolf]

2 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

It will only add layers of anything if GW completely scrap their entire design ethos. It's meant to be one in, one out.

Agreed, they may tweak the army rule slightly but the extra rules will come from the Detachments, which are 1 in, 1 out.

[Khornestar]

8 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Everyone is looking at this in a vaccum instead of comparing it to all the other faction focuses so far. Based on these changes and Guard and Necrons it looks like they are were they should be. Im not seeing any nerfs since its a complete redesign across the board.

 

Plus these are just a sprinkling of the index and not even when the actual codex comes out which will very likely add way more layers of rules/abilities

Well said! IMO having expectations based on prior editions is a recipe for disappointment.

[Leif Bearclaw]

On 5/12/2023 at 5:30 AM, Malakithe said:

Everyone is looking at this in a vaccum instead of comparing it to all the other faction focuses so far. Based on these changes and Guard and Necrons it looks like they are were they should be. Im not seeing any nerfs since its a complete redesign across the board.

 

Plus these are just a sprinkling of the index and not even when the actual codex comes out which will very likely add way more layers of rules/abilities

Have to strongly disagree there. There has been comparisons to the other Faction Focuses, and Votann has been the only one so far without much to excite players of the faction rather than its haters. They're the only one that GW decided to 'show off' units getting worse. Land Raider got its assault ramp back, Genestealers got +1W, Guard got improved Grenade Launchers (might seem small, but my Guard playing friend was really happy about that one), Necrons got a massively buffed Monolith etc. Votann got 'Hearthkyn stats and weapons have gotten worse, plus their special rules appear to be gone'. Whichever way you slice it, absolute or comparative, this is a kick in the teeth for Votann and their fans.

 

Really, really demoralised and sad, my hope and enthusiasm for 10th has been massively damaged by this. Massive nerfs and what feels like a complete loss of character. Sure, T5 but that seems like cold comfort (especially as toughness traditionally is easier to erode with the inevitable power creep than offensive power) for such wholesale nerfing. They could at least have let them keep the 'heavy weapons work just as well on the move' rule, as that was nice and 'dwarfy'. They just don't look or feel like trained, well equipped fighters from a society with a higher tech base than the Imperium and that highly values their lives any more.

 

Short range (how is the Nid Rupture Cannon longer range than the giant railgun on the Land Fortress?), low accuracy troops doesn't look like an auspicious combination. Losing range on the infantry rail rifle and L7 is particularly galling. Just why?

 

If Eldar get to keep WS/BS3+, I'll be proper livid (tbh, if they were serious about making the game less elite, Sisters should've gone down too, but we already know that isn't happening).

[Redcomet]

14 minutes ago, Leif Bearclaw said:

Have to strongly disagree there. There has been comparisons to the other Faction Focuses, and Votann has been the only one so far without much to excite players of the faction rather than its haters. They're the only one that GW decided to 'show off' units getting worse. Land Raider got its assault ramp back, Genestealers got +1W, Guard got improved Grenade Launchers (might seem small, but my Guard playing friend was really happy about that one), Necrons got a massively buffed Monolith etc. Votann got 'Hearthkyn stats and weapons have gotten worse, plus their special rules appear to be gone'. Whichever way you slice it, absolute or comparative, this is a kick in the teeth for Votann and their fans.

 

Really, really demoralised and sad, my hope and enthusiasm for 10th has been massively damaged by this. Massive nerfs and what feels like a complete loss of character. Sure, T5 but that seems like cold comfort (especially as toughness traditionally is easier to erode with the inevitable power creep than offensive power) for such wholesale nerfing. They could at least have let them keep the 'heavy weapons work just as well on the move' rule, as that was nice and 'dwarfy'. They just don't look or feel like trained, well equipped fighters from a society with a higher tech base than the Imperium and that highly values their lives any more.

 

Short range (how is the Nid Rupture Cannon longer range than the giant railgun on the Land Fortress?), low accuracy troops doesn't look like an auspicious combination. Losing range on the infantry rail rifle and L7 is particularly galling. Just why?

 

If Eldar get to keep WS/BS3+, I'll be proper livid (tbh, if they were serious about making the game less elite, Sisters should've gone down too, but we already know that isn't happening).

Uhm. Sisters are elite

[Malakithe]

40 minutes ago, Leif Bearclaw said:

Have to strongly disagree there. There has been comparisons to the other Faction Focuses, and Votann has been the only one so far without much to excite players of the faction rather than its haters. They're the only one that GW decided to 'show off' units getting worse. Land Raider got its assault ramp back, Genestealers got +1W, Guard got improved Grenade Launchers (might seem small, but my Guard playing friend was really happy about that one), Necrons got a massively buffed Monolith etc. Votann got 'Hearthkyn stats and weapons have gotten worse, plus their special rules appear to be gone'. Whichever way you slice it, absolute or comparative, this is a kick in the teeth for Votann and their fans.

 

Really, really demoralised and sad, my hope and enthusiasm for 10th has been massively damaged by this. Massive nerfs and what feels like a complete loss of character. Sure, T5 but that seems like cold comfort (especially as toughness traditionally is easier to erode with the inevitable power creep than offensive power) for such wholesale nerfing. They could at least have let them keep the 'heavy weapons work just as well on the move' rule, as that was nice and 'dwarfy'. They just don't look or feel like trained, well equipped fighters from a society with a higher tech base than the Imperium and that highly values their lives any more.

 

Short range (how is the Nid Rupture Cannon longer range than the giant railgun on the Land Fortress?), low accuracy troops doesn't look like an auspicious combination. Losing range on the infantry rail rifle and L7 is particularly galling. Just why?

 

If Eldar get to keep WS/BS3+, I'll be proper livid (tbh, if they were serious about making the game less elite, Sisters should've gone down too, but we already know that isn't happening).

First off your cherry picking here. Second, your not seeing the bigger picture. Lethality/damage are down across every faction. Rend and damage is down on most 'battleline' while clearly defined roles are returning. Gone are the days of spamming a couple units that can universally do everything.

 

And again you cant compare these meager index previews to 9th edition as they are two completely different games.

 

Sister are a hybrid of power armor elite meets horde capable.

 

And Eldar are old nimbly bimbly space elves so of course they are keeping their better stats but they die super easy to pretty much anything in the game

[Leif Bearclaw]

40 minutes ago, Redcomet said:

Uhm. Sisters are elite

What are the criteria for 'elite'? Sisters are baseline humans. Guard with fancy gear. Sure, they train a bunch, but so do Cadians, yet Guard are BS4+. You could argue (and I have in the past) about what the criteria for BS3vs4 should be, and you can spin it either way. But I'd would definitely say 'high tech space dwarf soldier' feels at leats as elite as 'zealous militant nun'. Either way, the point I was trying to get at (brought up earlier in the thread) is that if this nerfing is part of "a move to give elite stuff more room. If everyone is BS3+, then that's not elite any more" then it has to apply to more than just the Votann (especially the space elves). If they're the only army that was previously universally BS3+ that loses stats, that's not giving elite stuff more room, it's just a massive 'feels bad' nerf to the Votann.

 

9 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

First off your cherry picking here. Second, your not seeing the bigger picture. Lethality/damage are down across every faction. Rend and damage is down on most 'battleline' while clearly defined roles are returning. Gone are the days of spamming a couple units that can universally do everything.

 

And again you cant compare these meager index previews to 9th edition as they are two completely different games.

 

Sister are a hybrid of power armor elite meets horde capable.

 

And Eldar are old nimbly bimbly space elves so of course they are keeping their better stats but they die super easy to pretty much anything in the game

I'm not cherry picking. I listed 4 out of the 8 non-Votann faction focus articles we've seen so far, and only talked about the subject of the 'Unit Spotlight'. This was to highlight how the presentation of the Hearthkyn is unusual compared to how other factions have been treated (ie. no improvements or positives). Unfortunately I don't know how, off the top of my head, how Berserkers, Keeper of Secrets, Triumph of Saint Katherine or CSMs compare to their 9th edition presentation, so I didn't include them. However, I haven't heard anything close to the level of 'this is a huge nerf' that has followed the Votann article, so I'd say my point stands.

 

You absolutely can compare the these previews to 9th. That's the point of them, to excite people about the new edition and how it'll be 'better'. Sure, it's not a complete picture, but this is the element that GW chose to reveal to hype people for Votann in 10th. But what we were shown is nerfs with no apparent upside, unlike the rest of the focuses we've seen so far. This potentially puts the entire faction (and Hearthkyn certainly) in a really unfortunate engagement range, where to shoot they have to be pretty much in charge range of the opposing troops, but lack the firepower alpha strike to destroy the target, and then they're charged and mulched in melee because there isn't the range for additional shooting.

 

Now, granted I've not exactly been leaping on every titbit to come out about 10th, but what other units do we know about that have taken a blanket 25%+ loss of offensive output? Because that's what has happened to the Hearthkyn with their stats drop (plus the guns getting worse).

 

Basic Eldar were WS/BS3 (equivalent to 4+ these days) for multiple editions of the game. 'Being space elves' is not a convincing argument for better stats when 'being space dwarfs' clearly isn't either.

[Lord Marshal]

3 hours ago, Redcomet said:

Uhm. Sisters are elite

 

Hearthkyn are described as elite too, at least compared to the common soldiery of most other races.

 

The whole W/BS4+ change seems to entirely be a mechanical thing to build them around the new Judgement Token rules, rather than anything to do with lore. 

 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Lord Marshal

[Malakithe]

40 minutes ago, Lord Marshal said:

 

Hearthkyn are described as elite too, at least compared to the common soldiery of most other races.

 

The whole W/BS4+ change seems to entirely be a mechanical thing to build them around the new Judgement Token rules, rather than anything to do with lore. 

 

Also likely why they got rid of Turret Weapon and dont even have Heavy for AM tanks so they have to get hit with Take Aim orders

[Sea Creature]

The changes to grudge were absolutely necessary to align with 10th edition - otherwise they’d be too OP.

[Lemondish]

2 hours ago, Sea Creature said:

The changes to grudge were absolutely necessary to align with 10th edition - otherwise they’d be too OP.

 

Changes to judgment tokens were inevitable. These specific changes were not.

 

There's a million different ways that could have gone with this and they chose violence.

[The Unseen]

Sisters *are* more elite than most of the Leagues. Most Kyn aren't professional soldiers, they're civilians who treat warfare like a job, along with scouting, prospecting, mining, merchants, etc. Sisters, along with Kasrkins, literally treat marksmanship training as a holy ritual, and warfare as their sole reason for existence, and they only get 3+ BS, and WS 4+.

 

I for one am glad to see BS 3+ be reduced in the game, since when almost everyone is hitting on 3s, but only heroes and Custodes get to hit on 2s, there IS no elite status on a d6.

The LoV were never written or intended to be this super elite small model count army, if you look at their original points costs, before they ate like 75-100% increases because their rules were that fundamentally broken, and GW doesn't like to re-write books, they just increase point costs. If any army needed a baseball bat to its core mechanics it was the LoV, they literally did almost everything in the game better than everyone else, while also just saying "No" to a huge swath of other factions rules; and it was only through sending their points through the roof to the point they struggled to bring enough units to score points on the primary that they were brought down to normal WR levels.

 

But Also:

Votaan were, if not THE most lethal faction they were damn close, so of course they're gonna eat more nerfs than most if the game is actually going to end up less lethal.

[VengefulJan]

I have to agree with @The Unseen here. With how Votann were designed and released to compete with with 2 armies in 9th that were over-tuned (Dark Eldar and AdMech), and how those armies got walked backed repeatedly till the end of the edition, this should not have come as a surprise. They are being put in line with everybody else to make sure that everybody gets to have their fun for more than a turn or two, and even in that metaphor I still think they are a bit further up the line.

 

 @Leif Bearclaw , I think I understand, so correct me where I don't. I get that the point of these Focuses are to highlight and excite preexisting players about the experience and expression of the Factions in the new edition, and how everybody else was more or less getting a glow-up for their units and abilities, Votann are just showing up like a downgrade across the board. I get it and I see it too. I do have to say though that this is GW's fault, not just because of what they had the community team decide to show, but also on the design standpoint as this was over-performance capable army start. They way they were in 9th was never how they were suppose to be, the pre-launch nerfs to them proves GW's Admission of a mistake.

 

The design philosophy of the game was in a completely different direction to what it is now, and they were a brand new army, trying to figure out its own identity, in the most extreme version of that philosophy. This a new version of the game, with a new philosophy that is almost the exact opposite of the previous one. Votann are still hot in the crucible and they are getting pattern-welded out to be perfect in it.

 

Besides, I see a silver lining here. Your baseline troop is a:

- T5

- Max shot boltguns/high S/AP Ion

- Sticky objectives

- 6+ Fnp

- Ignores Cover

- 1CP refund 5+

- with 4++ Sergeant

- and minimum +1 to hit anybody who decided to kill any of your army's friends

 

That's your battleline. With Leaders, Strats, supporting units, it only goes up from there.

Edited May 13, 2023 by VengefulJan

[spessmarine]

7 hours ago, Lord Marshal said:

 

Hearthkyn are described as elite too, at least compared to the common soldiery of most other races.

 

The whole W/BS4+ change seems to entirely be a mechanical thing to build them around the new Judgement Token rules, rather than anything to do with lore. 

 

 

Just like what happened with Necron Warriors.

[Imprudent Decision]

The other previews largely showed mild improvements, or somewhat lateral changes/QoL improvements.  Votann are clearly being almost completely redesigned, which is not unprecedented.  The preview, however, should have actively engaged regarding that change to show positive changes as well as the negative and explain where the army is headed.  

[Lord Marshal]

I don't see many people complaining about the overall power level being the issue, everything is completely up in the air as we still don't know points and many other things.

 

What I think many people are taking issue with is that Votann preview isn't so much "everything has been nerfed!" (although it appears that is the case), so much as the entire article is one big "look at how much we've removed/made worse! Aren't you happy, Votann haters?"

 

Akin to what Phandaal said earlier on in the thread, it reads more like a Faction Focus designed for the people who hated Votann and wanted reassurance the things they hated have been removed, rather than an article designed to get Votann players excited. I've seen plenty of comments here and elsewhere along the lines of, "I don't play Votann but I like this Faction Focus!" but rarely in reverse which really sums it up I think. If that was their intention then it's seemingly mission accomplished?

 

The reason I'm wary is that GW have a habit of swinging the pendulum too far when they pick up the hammer. The fact they haven't been shy talking about [Lethal Hit] autowounds being spread about the other factions but have conspicuously been entirely absent from the Votann preview does make me raise an eyebrow, for instance.

 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Lord Marshal

[Sea Creature]

LoV bypassing toughness in 10th edition would break the game. They have gotten some nice buffs. Anyone would feels slighted that the way grudges has been modified, what would you have proposed instead?

[tzeentch9]

What I would have liked for the votann army rule is an enemy unit gets a judgement token whenever they destroy a votann unit or take an objective from the votann. One token grants sustained hits (1) against that unit, two tokens grant lethal hits, three tokens grants plus one damage. Keep the shorter range and less ap on their ranged weapons, but reinstate the 3+ WS and keep lethality of cc weapons. That would make them close range, tough and vengeful, whilst fulfilling the nerf of lethality that’s the goal of tenth.

[phandaal]

18 hours ago, Lord Marshal said:

The reason I'm wary is that GW have a habit of swinging the pendulum too far when they pick up the hammer. The fact they haven't been shy talking about [Lethal Hit] autowounds being spread about the other factions but have conspicuously been entirely absent from the Votann preview does make me raise an eyebrow, for instance.

 

Yeah, definitely cause to be wary. The hopium is that since this was not an article for Space Dwarf enjoyers, there must be some good stuff that was not shown. That is conjecture though.

 

At the very least, it would have been nice to know that our faction rule will not require a degenerate playstyle of sacrificing "chaff" units (which Votann do not have) to even interact with outside of a one-time selection at the start of the game.

[VengefulJan]

@tzeentch9, please clarify, are you saying that you believe that the basic battle line unit for the army should be more powerful than the core army rule in general. Cause that is what I am interpreting. 
 

I’m not being accusatory, just want to get on the same page.

[VengefulJan]

16 minutes ago, phandaal said:

At the very least, it would have been nice to know that our faction rule will not require a degenerate playstyle of sacrificing "chaff" units (which Votann do not have) to even interact with outside of a one-time selection at the start of the game.

I agree, some confirmation that the ability is supportive and not mandatory to the method of play would have been reassuring.

 

That being said, I encourage the thought that units will be getting cheaper, both to grant more toys on the table as well as also giving more opportunities for the army to kick in.

[tzeentch9]

40 minutes ago, VengefulJan said:

@tzeentch9, please clarify, are you saying that you believe that the basic battle line unit for the army should be more powerful than the core army rule in general. Cause that is what I am interpreting. 
 

I’m not being accusatory, just want to get on the same page.

I have no idea what you are saying to be honest. I was simply postulating what I thought would have been a better army rule / philosophy. There are better ways to nerf votann without making them bland

[Dark Shepherd]

Plus one to wound (in bulk) seems a huge deal for 10th

 

Special weapons are then wounding almost any infantry and maybe bikes/cav on 2s

 

Heavy weapons are wounding almost any heavy vehicles on 4s

[Lemondish]

5 hours ago, Dark Shepherd said:

Plus one to wound (in bulk) seems a huge deal for 10th

Sure, but this isn't in bulk.

 

Because this article was written specifically to target that group of people that hate this faction, we have zero idea of how or when additional tokens can be applied. Each enemy unit needs to kill two Votann units to be hit with 2 tokens to regularly acquire plus one to wound against it. That's nowhere close to bulk.

 

5 hours ago, Dark Shepherd said:

Special weapons are then wounding almost any infantry and maybe bikes/cav on 2s

 

Provided you haven't sacrificed your entire army in order to get two tokens on each unit.

Edited May 15, 2023 by Lemondish

[WrathOfTheLion]

As long as they aren't applied as an active negative to the other player even attempting to win the game, I think they've steered it more into the right direction. Performing actions and being on objectives were fundamentals to scoring in 9E, so doing either generating judgment tokens was antithetical to the opponent playing pretty much at all.

 

Kahls or other mechanism to issue them weren't the problem, so hopefully some mechanisms like that stay for them.

[phandaal]

9 hours ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

As long as they aren't applied as an active negative to the other player even attempting to win the game, I think they've steered it more into the right direction.

 

Yes, and we know this is the case thanks to the article.

 

9 hours ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

Kahls or other mechanism to issue them weren't the problem, so hopefully some mechanisms like that stay for them.

 

This is what Votann players would have liked to know.

 

Votann players are disappointed for reasons besides just "lethality is reduced in an edition where lethality is reduced," or their opponents not getting Jugement Tokens just for existing.

 

The Blow Flies of the world are happy because they dislike the army. Normal people who just did not enjoy playing against Votann are pleased that what they did not enjoy is gone.

 

At this point, there is not much value in going round and round. We will find out the full context soon enough.

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by phandaal