10th Ed Imperial Knights preview discussion

[Lord_Ikka]

WarCom article

 

I'm going to go ahead an set up this thread so that after tomorrow's preview there is a place for Knights players to discuss implications of both the preview and how Knights are looking for 10th ed.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Lord_Ikka

[TechCaptain]

Well by going through Reddit's Chaos Knights stuff there seems we have a small hint already. There is a strat for vehicles in the general strats that allows for rolling number of d6's as the strength of a melee weapon in the charge phase against a unit in engagement range adding additional two d6s if strength beats that unit's toughness. For every six rolled is a mortal wound. 

[Focslain]

15 hours ago, TechCaptain said:

Well by going through Reddit's Chaos Knights stuff there seems we have a small hint already. There is a strat for vehicles in the general strats that allows for rolling number of d6's as the strength of a melee weapon in the charge phase against a unit in engagement range adding additional two d6s if strength beats that unit's toughness. For every six rolled is a mortal wound. 

Actually it's a 5+ and that would mean that an armigar charging a unit of marines with sweep gets 10 dice. Luckily it's maxed at 6 MW, but still.

Tank shock is back baby!

[ValourousHeart]

Oh man, I love the new Harpoon!  Especially when combined with that army rule of reroll hits and wounds of 1.

 

Hits on 2+, reroll 1s, wounds on 2+, reroll 1s.

Vs Monsters and Vehicles - 4+ to wound deals 12 MW.

Vs everything else - 6+ to wound deals 12 MW.

 

 

And just a a refresher on ANTI and DEVASTATING WOUNDS

Spoiler

 

 

 

Edited May 18, 2023 by ValourousHeart

[Lord_Ikka]

My thoughts-

 

Pros

Noble Lance detachment has a strong rule- as someone who pretty much ran House Taranis for all of 9th I found that the 6+ FNP was quite powerful (when it worked). Getting it to 5+ will make all of our Knights really tough to take down. 

Oaths look good- both are fluffy and provide some good benefits. I think Lay Low the Tyrants will be the auto-take for most lists, the re-rolls are just too useful, but if there is an unannounced downside to not completing the oath, such as losing VP at the end of the game, I expect Reclaim the Realm to have some play as well. 

Toughness went up, 3 points for Armigers and 4 for Questoris (using Canis Rex's stats to go on), which will help. Means that melta's and most of the former "special" infantry-carried weapons we've seen previewed aren't wounding Armigers on 3s anymore, but actual anti-tank weapons like las-cannons are either wounding on 4s or 3s (2s in the case of the shadowsword's nasty volcano cannon). Seems both appropriate and fluffy to require the larger anti-tank weaponry to damage giant walking tanks.

Movement stayed the same. I wasn't expecting a nerf, but you can never tell, and Knights need to be fast to get board coverage with our limited amount of units.

Warglaives' thermal spears are upped in strength, and damage in melta range, compared to 9th. Very good, even if the range has been shortened by 6 inches I think that the damage buff equals that out.

The combo of Anti-Vehicle/Monster and Devastating Wounds that @ValourousHeart mentioned above for the harpoon is just mean. Still only a one-shot, but with Lay Low the Tyrants you are looking at a very good chance of throwing down 12 mortal wounds on certain targets. If the Conflagration Cannon on the Valiant is any good, and I don't see any reason for it to not be near what it was in 9th, the Valiant might make a showing on the tables now.

Rapid-fire Battle Cannon is going to be a killer at normal ranges. At 36" you are doing 6+2d6 shots (on top of extra shots from Blast) and that is a lot of firepower. The upping of strength to 10 helps somewhat to even out the loss of an AP in my view. My bet is that the Helverin autocannon will have a similar drop in AP but a corresponding bump in strength. 

The lack of bracketed damage is a massive boon to Knights. We'll no longer be losing movement speed and only losing WS/BS when we hit 7 wounds for Questoris or 4 for Armigers (pretty close to 9th ed bottom brackets). Only thing to think on is that Questoris also lose 5 OC value when they are Damaged, which will be impactful in the objective-holding game.

I like that Armigers OC got bumped up to 8, that should help a lot when most troops look like MSU squads will be hovering at OC 10.

 

Cons

Even though Toughness is going up for most things in 10th, the Warglaives' chainsword strike attack is staying at S10. Disappointing, as now you can't wound Questoris-class threats on 3s anymore and only have a 50/50 chance of wounding another Armiger.

Looks like Questoris class is losing 2 Wounds? Canis Rex shows 22 rather than the 24 of previous editions, 

Not happy that Knights still have the same 3+(5++ vs Ranged) as their base save. Even with the reduction of overall AP, ranged anti-tank weapons are going to be hitting Knights and forcing them to use their 5+ saves and those are never really reliable and Knights get hit hard in melee vs dedicate melee units with strong AP weapons. 

 

Other

Strats look fine- I wonder if Shoulder the Burden is taking over from the much-loved/used Machine Spirit Resurgent. If so, it looks to be a pretty good replacement, as the to Hit bonus cancels out the negative of being Damaged and you gain some other buffs that can really help. Might be really fun to pop onto a Questoris that hasn't been put into the Damaged bracket just to get a bonus to the save and hit in melee. Trophy Claim is super fluffy, and the +1 to Wound will be especially useful for tough opponents like Votann Land Fortresses and other Knights.

I'm waiting to see how Bondsman abilities will be used/distributed. If GW wants to encourage players to take some FW Cerastus/Questoris knights or Domnius chassis then they need to have Bondsman abilities as well- or some other benefit aside from just general killy-ness to take them. There is a reason that a single/couple of Questoris plus a bunch of Armigers is the standard list right now. I'd like to see some more variety there, with maybe Dominus buffing Questoris and Cerastus just getting Bondsman bonuses equal to similar Questoris chassis (Castigator getting Warden Bondsman, Atropos getting Crusader, etc...). 

Having Armigers as Battleline does suggest that they may not be taken in squadrons anymore- which could mean possibly getting 3 less of one type in a list, though I don't really know anyone who ran 9 Warglaives or 9 Helverins rather than a mix of the two...

Since you have to have 1 Character to lead your army as a Warlord, I'm assuming that Knights will have something similar to their 8th/9th ed "select one Knight model to be a Character" style rule. I can't imagine that the only character you could get is Canis Rex. 

 

Knights look pretty good this edition, so far, for what we know of the index armies. Not extremely OP, but a tough army to take on if you aren't prepped to have some anti-tank weapons in your force. Should be interesting seeing what the Chaos Knights bring, and we might be able to glean some more info from their sheets as to what we are getting. 

Edited May 19, 2023 by Lord_Ikka

[Karhedron]

10 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

Cons

 

Looks like Questoris class is losing 2 Wounds? Canis Rex shows 22 rather than the 24 of previous editions, 

 

The 6+++ actually more than compensates for that. Because each wound saved with a 6+++ is another wound that can be saved again, you get the "compound interest" effect which means that those 22 Wounds are actually equivalent to about 26 so it is a net increase overall.

  

10 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

Not happy that Knights still have the same 3+(5++ vs Ranged) as their base save. Even with the reduction of overall AP, ranged anti-tank weapons are going to be hitting Knights and forcing them to use their 5+ saves and those are never really reliable and Knights get hit hard in melee vs dedicate melee units with strong AP weapons. 

 

Melee will less dangerous for Knights I think. Power Fists now need a 5+ to wound even Armigers rather than the 3+ of previous editions.

[Lord_Ikka]

12 hours ago, Karhedron said:

The 6+++ actually more than compensates for that. Because each wound saved with a 6+++ is another wound that can be saved again, you get the "compound interest" effect which means that those 22 Wounds are actually equivalent to about 26 so it is a net increase overall.

Not if you were already running Taranis, then it is just a net loss of 4 Wounds (going down to 22 base, and the 2 that you get for being Mechanicus aligned). But I agree that overall the Knights will benefit from the FNP more than 2 Wounds. 

 

12 hours ago, Karhedron said:

Melee will less dangerous for Knights I think. Power Fists now need a 5+ to wound even Armigers rather than the 3+ of previous editions.

I hope so- having my Knights repeatedly rocked by melee units got annoying fast. Chainfists are a thing though, with their Anti-Vehicle 3+, though at least they are only 2 damage and -2 AP. 

[Karhedron]

8 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

I hope so- having my Knights repeatedly rocked by melee units got annoying fast. Chainfists are a thing though, with their Anti-Vehicle 3+, though at least they are only 2 damage and -2 AP. 

 

They also get fewer attacks at worse WS than Powerfists (at least the ones we have seen so far on termies).

 

Dreadnought-sized models may pose a threat in melee but we should be able to pick those out at range before they get into melee range. We haven't seen the Volcano Lance or Thermal Cannon but I image they would make short of a Dreadnought, especially with rerolls of 1s to Hit and Wound.

[ValourousHeart]

I'm hearing a couple interpretations of LAY LOW THE TYRANT.

 

One group says it is a SINGLE re-roll of a 1 to Hit and a SINGLE re-roll of a 1 to Wound.

The other group says it is re-roll ALL 1s to Hit and re-roll ALL 1s to Wound.

 

How are all of you reading this?

 

[Karhedron]

I am not completely sure. I think it means you can reroll all 1s to Hit and all 1s to Wound.

 

The reason I say this is that the wording is different from the Eldar Detachment ability which specifies ONE reroll to Hit and one to Wound. Of course GW is not always noted for its consistency.

 

[ValourousHeart]

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

I am not completely sure. I think it means you can reroll all 1s to Hit and all 1s to Wound.

 

The reason I say this is that the wording is different from the Eldar Detachment ability which specifies ONE reroll to Hit and one to Wound. Of course GW is not always noted for its consistency.

 

 

That was the way I was reading it too.

The confusion I believe is more related to the SM Oath of Moment rule and the use of the words A and THE in the two rules.

They are arguing that A indicates singular.

 

What I don't understand is how people can be so pedantic and woefully imprecise at the same time.

While it is true that A does indicate singular, it is also used to indicate a collection.

IE - A cow and A herd of cows.

 

[Lord_Ikka]

Its another unfortunate example of GW being both imprecise and not cohesive in their writing of rules. If you are going to write a rule that has limitations, such as only being able to re-roll a single die, then put in that you are only allowed to re-roll 1 die (such as the Aeldari rule). If it is an ability that allows for multiple dice to be re-rolled, then specifically state it so there is no ambiguation- "you may re-roll any to Hit and to-Wound results". Then keep that wording the same in every sort of rule from then on, do not change any words that may introduce confusion like we have here. English is a mixed up language as-is, we don't need GW's continual lack of good editing to reinforce this.

 

I agree with @Karhedron as far as the Knights rule goes, every 1 to Hit/Wound can be re-rolled. Technically, the Knights rule looks to be written referencing the single roll method, rather than fast rolling, so stating that a Hit roll of 1 is to be re-rolled means that every time a 1 is rolled it can be re-rolled. 

[ValourousHeart]

I think I've read all 3 rules about 300 hundred times each in the last couple of hours.  So I'm a little OCD.  Anyway... I think I've made my position more precise.

 

First off, take out "of 1" from Lay Low the Tyrant for a moment.  That caveat is not in dispute, and doing so put all 3 rules (Oath of Moment, Lay Low the Tyrant and Unparalleled Foresight) in essentially the same format.

 

The differences between the 3 rules are the words A, THE, and ONE.

A key detail the 3 rules have in common is "Hit Roll" and "Wound Roll", as opposed to Rolls.

 

Consensus is that the Eldar rule using the word ONE means ONE.

The consensus for Oath of Moment is that it is ALL.

 

However the only difference between Oath of Moment and Lay Low the Tyrant are the words "A" and "THE".  The only difference changing those words would make is from generic to specific, not the number of the subject.  Which means that all arguments in favor of Oath of Moment getting ALL work equally for Lay Low the Tyrant.  And all arguments for Lay Low the Tyrant only getting ONE work equally for Oath of Moment.

 

IMO we are tied to the hip with Oath of Moment.  And I feel that most Marine players want to keep the interpretation that Oath of Moment is ALL and not risk asking just in case it isn't.  So our only concern is an angry mob that wants to make sure Knights are weak, but that risks GW clarifying all similar rules which would impact Marines.

 

Do SM players love their bonuses more than they hate Knights?

[Karhedron]

36 minutes ago, ValourousHeart said:

Do SM players love their bonuses more than they hate Knights?

 

I play Marines and Knights so this isn't an either/or decision. I don't think anyone is worried about whose rules are strongest as long as the rules are appropriately priced meaning that games are balanced overall. The problem is simply the ambiguity leading to arguments, which is the quickest way to spoil the fun of a game.

[Lord_Ikka]

Oath of the Moment uses the verbage - "each time a model from your army with this ability makes an attack...", where Lay Low the Tyrant states "re-roll a Hit roll and a Wound roll..."

They aren't the same wording, unfortunately, so they aren't tied together really. My view is that unless there is a specific mention of numbers, such as the one re-roll for Aeldari or the wording "re-roll a single or re-roll two etc...", then the rule covers all dice used in "an attack". 

[Focslain]

So the Chaos Knight preview gave us a look at what our other weapons will look like and I'm liking it.

 

Gatling getting +6 shots is nice, though the thermal cannon lost another 6", Melta 6 though is a lot of damage for close range. Also a chainsword wielding knight gets 14 dice on the tank shock vs most infantry which is nuts.

[Karhedron]

CK's Seething Hatred rule is also worded in a way that makes it clear only a single dice may be rerolled.

 

Quote

Seething Hatred: Each time this model is selected to shoot or fight, you can reroll one Hit roll or you can reroll one Wound roll when resolving those attacks.

 

This to me is further evidence that "Lay low the Tyrant" affects all dice rolls.

[TechCaptain]

So buried in the text of two reveals is interesting info. One that Questorius will benefit from Bondsmen from the bonds they have with Armigers. How we don’t know. Also Dominus will extend ion shielding making auras of safer saves. How much we don’t know. I am thinking we have a permanent version of Ion Aegis Strat. Which makes Armigers 4 up invul six inches from the Dominus.

[Karhedron]

Given that the -1 Damage rule seems to have gone away, some way to boost the durability of Armigers would certainly be welcome.

[TechCaptain]

Well we haven’t seen what bondsmen does at all so it might still be around.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

The big winner from the info we have now is the Paladin (Ideal).  The RFBC is better then ever.    A 82'' threat range is gross.   Even without the new Rapid fire rule, a d6+3 is a minor, if any, nerf at long range, 72''.   Nothing worse then rolling 2d6 and getting 2.  The relative Str increase mitigates the Armor pen loss.   the 72'' range is also better now when compared to the field with the loss in range of the melta weapons.   The Thermal cannon is 24'', down from 30.  that a 20% haircut.  If the RFBC took that % off the top it would be a unimpressive 57.6 ''.  When I tried to hype the RFBC in the past it seemed like most did not even care as they where melee hunting anyway.  So the Rapid fire rule feels like cheating. 6+2d6+(0-4).  The Gatling cannon is A 18,  RFBC is max 18+? (21,22?).  

 

The Armiger mentor ability seems to remain at the top of the list.   I don't see the weakness in this walker.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 23, 2023 by Lord Lorne Walkier

[ValourousHeart]

17 hours ago, Lord Lorne Walkier said:

6+2d6+(0-4)

 

Is there a max on the blast bonus?  I must have missed that.

[Focslain]

It doesn't but also I don't think the rapid fire shot is getting the bonus either. So against a squad of 10 marines your looking at base D6+5 (+2 from blast) and another d6+3 from rapid fire.

 

Now on a full squad of 30 boys at close range you'd get 2D6+12 (+6 from blast). Which mind you in nothing to sneeze at. 

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

30 would be +5 no?

[TechCaptain]

The feel no pain is going to go a long way to help Imperial Knights in Melee too.