Wh40k 10th Edition Faction Focus: Thousand Sons

[Tokugawa]

6 hours ago, ThePenitentOne said:

I would argue that when GW writes Doombolt (Psychic), they are identifying it as psychic, and anything that does damage (which doombolt does) is an attack; if it is both psychic AND an attack, it does not need to be labelled specifically as a Psychic Attack.

 

But then, maybe that's just me and my RAI over RAW every day of the week and twice on Sundays attitude.

 

 

Original wording of 10th rules:

 

"If a psychic weapon or ability cause any unit to suffer one or more wounds, each of those wounds is considered to have been inflicted by a psychic attack."

[spessmarine]

Mutalith very much has a role between that aura and shooting profile.

Turn off armour saves, ooh. At up to 36'' in most cases.

Got a detachment that wants to go all in psychic weapons, they have got to be able to spam them to some extent then. Their terminator's khopesh probably has psychic.

 

TS faction rule is more complicated than others, naturally. Kind of works like a imitation psychic discipline with warp charge dice I suppose? Definitely has some thought put into it. Makes sense this carried over while WE lost their system in favour of playing Yahtzee, can't do the math or accounting with nails in the brain.

 

 

[WrathOfTheLion]

Those crayons were pretty tasty, not going to lie, but we can't do accounting anymore.

[spessmarine]

1 hour ago, Tokugawa said:

Original wording of 10th rules:

 

"If a psychic weapon or ability cause any unit to suffer one or more wounds, each of those wounds is considered to have been inflicted by a psychic attack."

 

On the note of psychic weapons, better hope command points are very limited otherwise playing GK into TS just involves you blowing yourself up each turn. Or I suppose comedic TS mirror matches of who is the better warband splinter, not the one that fails their Gets Hot more I suppose.

[Rain]

18 minutes ago, spessmarine said:

TS faction rule is more complicated than others, naturally. Kind of works like a imitation psychic discipline with warp charge dice I suppose? Definitely has some thought put into it. Makes sense this carried over while WE lost their system in favour of playing Yahtzee, can't do the math or accounting with nails in the brain.

 

 

Khorne Berzerkers can’t read, but they are still very upset with you.

[Doobles57]

15 hours ago, ThePenitentOne said:

I would argue that when GW writes Doombolt (Psychic), they are identifying it as psychic, and anything that does damage (which doombolt does) is an attack; if it is both psychic AND an attack, it does not need to be labelled specifically as a Psychic Attack.

 

But then, maybe that's just me and my RAI over RAW every day of the week and twice on Sundays attitude.

 

 

Turns out this is actually covered in the rules that were leaked. I missed it on first read! So your interpretation is RAW as well as RAI! 

[Xenith]

Interesting to see, this is the one I've been waiting for really. It's kind of Meh for me, and very bipolar in the same way the current TS books is - either stuff is amazing or pointless. The 2CP one to rerolla save at a point in the future is pointless, the one to remove saves is insane, and warptime/free move just got more reliable.

 

5 rubes with flamers shooting a target on an objective with saves denied is like a straight 12wounds, or 6 dead marines. We need to see points again, but some options look very strong, some look poor. 

 

 

18 hours ago, ThePenitentOne said:

I would argue that when GW writes Doombolt (Psychic), they are identifying it as psychic, and anything that does damage (which doombolt does) is an attack; if it is both psychic AND an attack, it does not need to be labelled specifically as a Psychic Attack.

 

 

That's not how it works in 9th though - MW dealing psychic powers are that, and not 'attacks' per se - so necrons don't get to reanimate from MW's. Likewise MW's just remove wounds, they dont go through the normal attack process.

12 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

Original wording of 10th rules:

 

"If a psychic weapon or ability cause any unit to suffer one or more wounds, each of those wounds is considered to have been inflicted by a psychic attack."

 

edit I stand corrected. 

 

Ahriman seems poor, and only of benefit for the +1 to wound. If exalted sorcs have similar he's out of there. The unique spell, psychic stalk, will do what, 2 AP-1 wounds to a character in a unit? He might be ok at about 115pts., mainly for the free twist of fate. 

 

If they were going to water him down so much, I'd like to have had him without the free cabal power rule, but do something like generate 6 cabal points on his own. Have Magnus be the raw spell powerhouse/damage dealer, and ahriman be the puppetmaster improving stuff around him. 

[Xenith]

Just realised also that they nerfed the AP on the inferno bolters, and TS have lost All is Dust, both of the things that made them different to normal marines. I guess we still have the 5++ though, which is weaker due to the reduced AP on basic weapons. 

 

With these nerfs, I'd expect this unit to be at the 85 - 95 point mark, which would be ok. if they remain at 115, then this is bad. 

[Special Officer Doofy]

Just now, Xenith said:

Just realised also that they nerfed the AP on the inferno bolters, and TS have lost All is Dust, both of the things that made them different to normal marines. I guess we still have the 5++ though, which is weaker due to the reduced AP on basic weapons. 

 

With these nerfs, I'd expect this unit to be at the 85 - 95 point mark, which would be ok. if they remain at 115, then this is bad. 

 

I had similar thoughts with my death guard losing disgustingly resilient, movement, ap and plague weapons rules/synergies. Praying for points drops is not a good feeling haha.

[Xenith]

Yea, both TS and DG losing their defensive boosts feels ok if it's happening to everyone. I guess DG only have T5 now, while TS only get the 5++? Maybe we're back to where we were in 4/5th ed. 

 

I just look at the inferno bolter now at AP-1, and see the primaris bolt rifle at AP-1 also and wince. Inferno Bolt shells were supposed to punch straight through power armour, and have got progressively worse over the years. In 3rd ed they were AP2, then in 6th (?) they were ap3 and ignored power armour, in 8th they were something, 9th they were ap-2, so gave marines a save 33% of the time, instead of no save. 

 

Also lost assault on the flamers, so one of the best loadouts was killed and mobility severly hampered.  

 

At the moment, Rubrics are on par with intercessors with a 5++ and lower movement. 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Xenith

[Rain]

54 minutes ago, Xenith said:

Yea, both TS and DG losing their defensive boosts feels ok if it's happening to everyone. I guess DG only have T5 now, while TS only get the 5++? Maybe we're back to where we were in 4/5th ed. 

 

I just look at the inferno bolter now at AP-1, and see the primaris bolt rifle at AP-1 also and wince. Inferno Bolt shells were supposed to punch straight through power armour, and have got progressively worse over the years. In 3rd ed they were AP2, then in 6th (?) they were ap3 and ignored power armour, in 8th they were something, 9th they were ap-2, so gave marines a save 33% of the time, instead of no save. 

 

Also lost assault on the flamers, so one of the best loadouts was killed and mobility severly hampered.  

 

At the moment, Rubrics are on par with intercessors with a 5++ and lower movement. 

Yes, but in older editions (pre 8th) Rubrics also had rules that debilitated them in close combat such as Slow and Purposeful, which IIRC made them strike at initiative 1 at all times and made their movement random. Combined with no option to give them CCW’s and only 1 attack a piece on the sheet, they were absolutely awful in close combat. On top of *that*, Rubrics had no gun upgrades at all, which they do now. So, while regular CSM could take melta, plasma, etc. to buff their shooting, Rubrics only had inferno bolts.
 

They still kind of sucked even with inferno bolts in my opinion, but that was the only purpose of the squad. To melt MEQ within 24 inches and somehow avoid getting into CC.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Rain

[Special Officer Doofy]

55 minutes ago, Xenith said:

Yea, both TS and DG losing their defensive boosts feels ok if it's happening to everyone. I guess DG only have T5 now, while TS only get the 5++? Maybe we're back to where we were in 4/5th ed. 

 

I just look at the inferno bolter now at AP-1, and see the primaris bolt rifle at AP-1 also and wince. Inferno Bolt shells were supposed to punch straight through power armour, and have got progressively worse over the years. In 3rd ed they were AP2, then in 6th (?) they were ap3 and ignored power armour, in 8th they were something, 9th they were ap-2, so gave marines a save 33% of the time, instead of no save. 

 

Also lost assault on the flamers, so one of the best loadouts was killed and mobility severly hampered.  

 

At the moment, Rubrics are on par with intercessors with a 5++ and lower movement. 

 

Not to rub salt in the wound, but intercessor's bolt rifles also have the heavy and assault keywords, so they can advance and shoot and if they don't move hit on 2+...

[Sorceress]

I am pretty happy with how the rubrics look, but I desperately hope there is a separate ahriman on disk with lone operative and better actual powers, he really deserves something like the strike and sweep profiles many big melee guys have, one power that can be a bunch of troop melting attacks or a few devastating terminator killing or tank crippling effects. 

[Tokugawa]

5 minutes ago, Sorceress said:

I am pretty happy with how the rubrics look, but I desperately hope there is a separate ahriman on disk with lone operative and better actual powers, he really deserves something like the strike and sweep profiles many big melee guys have, one power that can be a bunch of troop melting attacks or a few devastating terminator killing or tank crippling effects. 

Ahriman was never famous for being a melee duelist, in any edition.

[MagicHat]

2 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

Ahriman was never famous for being a melee duelist, in any edition.

 

No, he meant he should have a ranged psychic power that is like sweep/strike. 

[Blight1]

Ahriman used to be known for multiple psychic shooting attacks and I was hoping for the same in 10th ed.  Free doombolt is all well and good but that psychic stalk profile feels kinda pathetic.   It's sad that the base attack from a librarian feels more threatening. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

23 minutes ago, Blight1 said:

Ahriman used to be known for multiple psychic shooting attacks and I was hoping for the same in 10th ed.  Free doombolt is all well and good but that psychic stalk profile feels kinda pathetic.   It's sad that the base attack from a librarian feels more threatening. 

I think the psychic stalk is more a tech piece. It's not going to do a ton of damage, but you're going to use it against characters in a unit, as it has Precision. It is kind of weird that Ahriman is basically a sniper though, I'll need to try it out to see how well it works.

[Sorceress]

ya like a single ranged power that gives you some options like 

sorcerous desolation * when you attack with this weapon choose one of the profiles below

 

scintillating blasts range 24" 2d6 attacks hitting on 3+ strenght 3 ap -2 damage 1 anti infantry 4+,  blast

 

focused beam range 24" 2 attacks hitting on 2+ strenght 12 ap -3 damage 4

 

seeking ray range 12" 1 attack strenght 6 ap -1 damage d6, precision, torrent.

 

let the second most experienced and versatile sorcerer in the galaxy actually have some versitility.

[BitsHammer]

[Tokugawa]

9 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

I guess he was asking about variants like contemptor…GW didn't really answered.

 

But , as the default "dreadnought" in loyalist phases out in 10th, and directly overwritten by redemptor-class chassis unit, would chaos default "hellbrute" receive the same changes(2+, T10 but no -1dmg) in profile?

[WrathOfTheLion]

39 minutes ago, Tokugawa said:

I guess he was asking about variants like contemptor…GW didn't really answered.

 

But , as the default "dreadnought" in loyalist phases out in 10th, and directly overwritten by redemptor-class chassis unit, would chaos default "hellbrute" receive the same changes(2+, T10 but no -1dmg) in profile?

Only the raw base dreadnought is gone for loyalist space marines. The Ironclad, Venerable, etc. are still there, so there's no conclusion to be made.

[Rain]

I really doubt the Contemptor will ever be added to any Chaos book. The only way I can ever see this happening is if GW ever sells a corrupted Contemptor in plastic for HH with spikes and gold trim, and “Chaos” on the box somewhere. Current GW doesn’t like “confusing” their players by letting Chaos take units that don’t have spikes and chaos stars in the kit without using a FW supplement.

 

And I say this as the proud owner of a resin World Eaters Contemptor that I would love base codex support for. I love dreadnoughts, but the Helbrute is not my cup of tea. The bio-organic thing just doesn’t work, except for Death Guard and maybe Word Bearers.

 

 

[Jukkiz]

4 hours ago, Rain said:

I really doubt the Contemptor will ever be added to any Chaos book. The only way I can ever see this happening is if GW ever sells a corrupted Contemptor in plastic for HH with spikes and gold trim, and “Chaos” on the box somewhere. Current GW doesn’t like “confusing” their players by letting Chaos take units that don’t have spikes and chaos stars in the kit without using a FW supplement.

 

And I say this as the proud owner of a resin World Eaters Contemptor that I would love base codex support for. I love dreadnoughts, but the Helbrute is not my cup of tea. The bio-organic thing just doesn’t work, except for Death Guard and maybe Word Bearers.

 

 

Yeah, thousand sons don´t really scream, FLESHY prison dreadnoughts... Also why they cannot get psychic dreads for once, without HH in the mix

[Xenith]

On 5/26/2023 at 4:57 PM, Rain said:

Yes, but in older editions (pre 8th) Rubrics also had rules that debilitated them in close combat such as Slow and Purposeful, which IIRC made them strike at initiative 1 at all times and made their movement random. Combined with no option to give them CCW’s and only 1 attack a piece on the sheet, they were absolutely awful in close combat. On top of *that*, Rubrics had no gun upgrades at all, which they do now. So, while regular CSM could take melta, plasma, etc. to buff their shooting, Rubrics only had inferno bolts.
 

They still kind of sucked even with inferno bolts in my opinion, but that was the only purpose of the squad. To melt MEQ within 24 inches and somehow avoid getting into CC.

 

I remember those times, and I'd go back to them - at least they had some character and fluff to them - being really good at one thing, and awful at everything else, then you had the sorcerer with some useful powers. I recall they had a straight 4++ back then also? I recall the days when they were slow and purposeful, just had regular bolters, and were immune to S4 or less weapons! 

 

On 5/26/2023 at 5:02 PM, Special Officer Doofy said:

Not to rub salt in the wound, but intercessor's bolt rifles also have the heavy and assault keywords, so they can advance and shoot and if they don't move hit on 2+...

 

yea, forgot about those. I guess sorcerous inferno shells fired from 10,000 year old cursed bolters are just plain worse than whatever cawl has come up with recently? 

 

For the TSons, I was really hoping for some reanimation-protocols style rule where they heal damage and return models. That is a new thing in the fluff from French's books - previously their souls would escape if the armour was broken, then the sorcerer could return their souls by resealing the armour and performin a ritual, but now in the lore it seems to happen automatically during battle.

 

The normal T, but regenerating rubrics would also put them in a separate design space to plague marines, so instead of having 2 tough types of red and green marine, we have one exceptionally tough one, but when it goes down it stays down, and another that is normal toughness, however recovers from wounds and keeps fighting. I'd have preferred that to the all is dust rules or the 5++. 

[Xenith]

On 5/26/2023 at 3:48 PM, Xenith said:

With these nerfs, I'd expect this unit to be at the 85 - 95 point mark

 

I wasn't far off there, Rubes are 95pts for 5!