warhammer 40k 10th edition Reanimation Protocols: 9th v 10th Edition Rules

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

15 hours ago, Atrus said:

Yeah my excitement for 10th died with much of my armies faction focuses.

The gutting of necrons reanimation takes a lot of the fun of them out of it fir me.

Sisters seeming to be built around act of faith in order to be functional.

 

I don't see myself embracing 10th at this stage.  8th was gutted of practically all battlefield tactics /positioning/pay-offs and turned into a very gamey game and not a wargame like it was in previous editions.

9th continued that and looks like 10 will continue the trend.

Giving serious thought to just going back to 5th ed.

i hadn't played against necrons in 9th but i did in 8th, and tbh i didn't find them very fun to play against. everything getting obsec, and every unit or nearly every unit reviving multiple models from units that were nearly destroyed is extremely frustrating and not very fun to play against. talk about a feels bad moment.

[ZeroWolf]

I actually prefer the new necron reanimation rules, they seem far less complicated (though to be honest, I think 3rd Edition hit the nail on the head with how it was supposed to be flavour wise).

[Xenith]

On 5/27/2023 at 3:06 AM, Atrus said:

Yeah my excitement for 10th died with much of my armies faction focuses.

The gutting of necrons reanimation takes a lot of the fun of them out of it fir me.

 

Didn't they make reanimation a hell of a lot stronger/better than it is now? On average a unit of warriors gets 4 models per turn back for free, no rolling, which is comparable to having lost 12 models in 9th ed and rolling 12 dice and getting four 5+'s (ignoring the reroll 1's). Now, even if you haven't lost any models, they just get back up. One guy left in the unit? Go hide and there's 5 of them next turn, and in 2 turns they're back up to 9. Or 6 and 11 if they're near an objective. 

 

Now they're a terrifying immortal legion. No doubt they will have other things to trigger bonus RP activations. 

[The Unseen]

I think the complaint there is that if you wipe a unit out, reanimation never triggers, and in standard size games focus firing units is basic tactics 101. Lethality will have to have been pared back pretty dramatically for the rule to matter much. Same with the Sisters Detachment bonus. Relying on taking damage BUT not being dead with T3 nerfed power armor 1 wound models is not likely to actually matter. At least with sisters it guarantees the opponent will actually finish off your units thus granting miracle dice for martyrdom, but it still doesn't feel great. But at least its the detachment rule, so presumably later sisters will have other options. With Necrons, against a smart opponent that knows how to target priority and split fire, you are often not going to get to use you ARMY rule. This would be somewhat mitigated if LoS was like in Heresy or other wargames where you can't kill what you can't see, but that is not the case with 40k 10th. So if you have some models in a squad hiding behind a wall or whatever, if something goes to shoot them when they have some models visible, all the shooting can still kill the ones behind the wall.

[appiah4]

40K LOS and cover rules are so bad..  Abstraction has its use when it facilitates a plausible approximation of the outcome, but 40K cover rules usually result in outcomes that are completely implausible.

[Xenith]

23 hours ago, The Unseen said:

I think the complaint there is that if you wipe a unit out, reanimation never triggers, and in standard size games focus firing units is basic tactics 101.

 

But that's exactly the same as it is now, and always has been?*

 

9th ed, you could only ever get back models lost to the last attack, while in 10th, the unit can go back up to full strength as long as you can keep it alive. Which is a lot lot better. Similarly, the new version automatically brings back things like multiwound skorpekhs, where previously you needed to roll three 5+'s, which was difficult unless the unit had been savaged. Now, if you have 3 skorpekhs, and the opponent kills only one...then that one just gets right back up again next turn. 

 

*I'll add in the that I've since realised (not being a Necron player) that the current version of RP is more likely to prevent your opponent from wiping the unit out in a single turn/phase, however I'll stick to my guns and say that I feel the new version is still superior. It should be easy to keep 1-2 warriors hidden so if your opponent cannot wipe the unit with one unit's shooting, you still have 1-2 left who can then regen a bunch more next turn. 

Edited May 31, 2023 by Xenith

[Captain Idaho]

I prefer Reanimation Protocols now. The argument that you get wiped out before you get a chance to reanimate is a little inaccurate I feel - odds are 20 Necron Warriors aren't getting wiped in 1 turn unless your opponent really dedicates his attention to it and there's no terrain etc. Also, ain't nothing else getting shot either.

 

Smaller units of Skorpekh Destroyers? Well if they get wiped in 1 turn they likely are suffering from multiple units shooting etc so losing 1 or 2 models a time isn't seeing many reanimated models anyway.

 

It's just cleaner and easier and likely there will be additional abilities that boost it up too.

[Xenith]

I guess it's between:

Guaranteed regeneration of potentially 30 models (average 25 on an objective) over the course of the game, if you can survive until your command phase

A chance to regen fewer models immediately, with zero chance of getting back to full strength, but more likely to have the unit survive.

 

In 9th, the second option was probably better as a single obsec warrior surviving could take the objective from another unit, but in 10th, warriors are no longer obsec so a single warrior holding an objective has probably lost it anyway. 

 

Personally I think the new RP is a lot, lot stronger, assuming you can keep your units alive (max squads not MSU).

 

[ZeroWolf]

It'd be an easy guess that the resurrection orb will be helping RP in some fashion, same with the reanimator

[The Unseen]

The difference I think you guys aren't seeing is that previously reanimation triggered between every attack, and was only ever bypassed if you killed the whole unit with 1 units attacks, which is a LOT harder than killing a unit over an entire turn.

 

If it triggers, the rule is definitely better for multi-wound models, but it still requires the unit to take damage and then live all the way to your command phase.

Edited May 30, 2023 by The Unseen

[Captain Idaho]

I'm seeing it, but I don't see it as an issue. 20 Warriors likely won't be wiped out in a turn anyway, so the change to RP doesn't matter so much. For higher wound models, they didn't benefit from RP in 9th anyway.

 

Overall, a cleaner, quicker RP that can help higher wound models is much more preferable.

[appiah4]

20 warriors will definitely get wiped out in a turn if that means no reanimation protocol.  There is no point in damaging 3 units and getting 3 RP activations if you can just concentrate on a single one and wipe it out.

[Arkangilos]

52 minutes ago, appiah4 said:

20 warriors will definitely get wiped out in a turn if that means no reanimation protocol.  There is no point in damaging 3 units and getting 3 RP activations if you can just concentrate on a single one and wipe it out.

Sure, if you move your guys in such a way that they take all the fire. But then your other squads wont be taking any.

[Vermintide]

Ah, the reanimation discussion comes back around eh?

 

Honestly after many years watching Necrons be thoroughly underwhelming while the rules writers completely over-estimate the gameplay value of reanimation, and along with that, continue to give Necron units points values that would be at home in 3rd or 4th edition, I have come to the conclusion they just need to take it back to basics. Make it really simple, with a really simple limit on the effect.

 

What I'd propose is to massively buff it on one hand, but what could be called a nerf on the other. I'd have it just flat out trigger on a roll of a 4+, regardless if the unit is wiped, regardless of wound count, regardless how it was killed, regardless of any other rules at all, for the entire game. Simple as that- You roll 1 dice for every slain model, and it pure and simply comes back to life on a 4+, no questions asked. But. The first time it fails, the model is assumed to be too damaged to self repair, and phases out. Thus it is removed as a genuine casualty.

 

So you have reanimation always being relevant, making the Necrons feel like the relentless and undying threat they always should, but it's never going to be something that just carries the army. I feel like the design of the army overall already has enough built in weaknesses (particularly in access to reliable anti-tank, and frankly just lackluster shooting all over; while their infantry used to be up there amongst the most elite, but has slipped quite a way behind over the years) that it wouldn't be a bad thing to let Reanimation feel a bit more potent- The rule designers seem to think it's this game-breaking OP power that needs drastic limits, but in reality it just never is.

 

In general I'd just like to see Necrons live up to the idea of being a scary, deadly, high-tech army, not just Space Undead.

[appiah4]

2 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

Sure, if you move your guys in such a way that they take all the fire. But then your other squads wont be taking any.

So what?  You will still have lost 20 guys and got back nothing instead of losing 20 and getting back 10.

[Karhedron]

29 minutes ago, appiah4 said:

So what?  You will still have lost 20 guys and got back nothing instead of losing 20 and getting back 10.

 

The point being that is only likely to happen if you deliberately expose your Warrior blob to the bulk of the enemy army. If you do that, chances are that they are drawing fire from the rest of your units who will then be in prime position to hammer the enemy next turn. If you opponents want to expend all their firepower on one of your least valuable units, make them pay for that decision.

[ZeroWolf]

12 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

I'm seeing it, but I don't see it as an issue. 20 Warriors likely won't be wiped out in a turn anyway, so the change to RP doesn't matter so much. For higher wound models, they didn't benefit from RP in 9th anyway.

 

Overall, a cleaner, quicker RP that can help higher wound models is much more preferable.

I concur, though looking at the comments it seems some people's bug bear is when it activates over what you're rolling.

 

2 hours ago, Vermintide said:

Ah, the reanimation discussion comes back around eh?

 

Honestly after many years watching Necrons be thoroughly underwhelming while the rules writers completely over-estimate the gameplay value of reanimation, and along with that, continue to give Necron units points values that would be at home in 3rd or 4th edition, I have come to the conclusion they just need to take it back to basics. Make it really simple, with a really simple limit on the effect.

 

What I'd propose is to massively buff it on one hand, but what could be called a nerf on the other. I'd have it just flat out trigger on a roll of a 4+, regardless if the unit is wiped, regardless of wound count, regardless how it was killed, regardless of any other rules at all, for the entire game. Simple as that- You roll 1 dice for every slain model, and it pure and simply comes back to life on a 4+, no questions asked. But. The first time it fails, the model is assumed to be too damaged to self repair, and phases out. Thus it is removed as a genuine casualty.

 

So you have reanimation always being relevant, making the Necrons feel like the relentless and undying threat they always should, but it's never going to be something that just carries the army. I feel like the design of the army overall already has enough built in weaknesses (particularly in access to reliable anti-tank, and frankly just lackluster shooting all over; while their infantry used to be up there amongst the most elite, but has slipped quite a way behind over the years) that it wouldn't be a bad thing to let Reanimation feel a bit more potent- The rule designers seem to think it's this game-breaking OP power that needs drastic limits, but in reality it just never is.

 

In general I'd just like to see Necrons live up to the idea of being a scary, deadly, high-tech army, not just Space Undead.

Wasn't this the original rule way back in 2nd/3rd anyway?

[Xenith]

=][= I've split the interesting RP discussion off from the 10th edition enthusiasm topic in Amicus so we can continue here. =][=

 

 

[appiah4]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

 

The point being that is only likely to happen if you deliberately expose your Warrior blob to the bulk of the enemy army. If you do that, chances are that they are drawing fire from the rest of your units who will then be in prime position to hammer the enemy next turn. If you opponents want to expend all their firepower on one of your least valuable units, make them pay for that decision.

Excuse me but this is plain wrong.  If he shoots 3 units and kills 20, but 10 reanimate, he will get punished WORSE than if he shoots 1 and kills 20.  There is no greater punishment you can inflict on him for concentrating fire on a single unit.  It's a lose-lose for you.

[DemonGSides]

15 minutes ago, appiah4 said:

Excuse me but this is plain wrong.  If he shoots 3 units and kills 20, but 10 reanimate, he will get punished WORSE than if he shoots 1 and kills 20.  There is no greater punishment you can inflict on him for concentrating fire on a single unit.  It's a lose-lose for you.

 

How is he wrong?  Your next two sentences don't make sense with your last statement.

If I've got three units of Space Marines shooting at 1 unit of Warriors and ignoring 2 units of Immortals, all in the hope that I can wipe the Blob, that's a bad trade for the space marine player, as even if they do kill the Warriors, the two units of Immortals are going to vaporize more Intercessors than intercessors killed warriors (On a points value scale, obviously not model for model).  That's a good trade.

[appiah4]

31 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

How is he wrong?  Your next two sentences don't make sense with your last statement.

If I've got three units of Space Marines shooting at 1 unit of Warriors and ignoring 2 units of Immortals, all in the hope that I can wipe the Blob, that's a bad trade for the space marine player, as even if they do kill the Warriors, the two units of Immortals are going to vaporize more Intercessors than intercessors killed warriors (On a points value scale, obviously not model for model).  That's a good trade.

Then you focus the Immortals and get everyone to fire on that.  You always try to wipe out the threat as a unit instead of dividing fire, and regardless of whether you can manage that you ALWAYS come out better because the enemy has less damaged units to activate RP on, if at all any.

[Arkangilos]

3 hours ago, appiah4 said:

Then you focus the Immortals and get everyone to fire on that.  You always try to wipe out the threat as a unit instead of dividing fire, and regardless of whether you can manage that you ALWAYS come out better because the enemy has less damaged units to activate RP on, if at all any.

Either way, in order to wipe a unit like that you sacrifice something. 
If the player sets up all his guys so every unit can target every unit simultaneously then he sort of deserves not being able to use his rules if he gets unit wiped.

 

Poor tactics mean poor results.

[appiah4]

Pardon me but this is a strawman argument answer and does not even slightly challenge the fact that when your unit gets focus fired and wiped you don't get any benefits from RP, and any clever player will always focus fire against this rule rather than spread their fire around.

[Arkangilos]

27 minutes ago, appiah4 said:

Pardon me but this is a strawman argument answer and does not even slightly challenge the fact that when your unit gets focus fired and wiped you don't get any benefits from RP, and any clever player will always focus fire against this rule rather than spread their fire around.

If they can, but that will create a situation where other units will not take any damage and can fire to full effect.

The problem presented was that the new rule wasn’t good because you can focus fire and wipe out an entire unit before the rule works.

 

The answer is, “so what? IF that happens (which isn’t guaranteed because it requires circumstances that favor it), the Necron Player has ALL their other FULL strength units to then proceed to hit the now exposed enemy army.” By the next turn the non-cron won’t have the same amount of firepower and won’t be able to inflict the same amount of damage, thus your army will be far more likely to survive, and therefore far more likely reanimate.

[appiah4]

You are still pushing the same tired strawman. "But next round the remaining units will shoot you" is both irrelevant and stupid because the same applies to the old RP rules as well. And guess what, with the old rules MORE units will shoot back at you.

 

So basically you went from "No it is not worse" to "Well that wont happen often and if it does then you deal with it".  Moving goal posts and all that.

Edited May 31, 2023 by appiah4