Wh40k 10th Edition Tyranids Index

[Mogger351]

56 minutes ago, Blight1 said:

I will miss the advance and charge on genestealers. 

 

Overall I'm optimistic about this edition and I know a lot of my local players were getting rules fatigue so this should help them.

One thing I dislike about the homogenizing of weapon options is that GW is wildly inconsistent in how they do it.  Tyrant guard have full weapon options and warriors do not despite having incredibly similar loadouts.  Same thing happened with CSM where they had some units with lightning claws and some with two maelific weapons.  Same modeled weapon but very different rules.  It's an inconsistency that gets to me.

Still excited to see all the armies and to get some games in.

Will be having a Tyranid mirror match today using 9th ed points to try this all out.

I agree on the inconsistencies, likewise spinefist, deathspitter and devourers are all allowed to continue to exist in a small design space. If one got squashed, you'd think the other would.

 

Regards tyrant guard I think it's purely to facilitate the claws as powerfists.

[tzeentch9]

The only thing I’m disappointed about is no Trygon prime, just normal trygons. Oh well

[Kilamandaros]

No more TLDs on Hive Tyrant I notice, lots of expensive FW arms about to get ripped off.

[Kallas]

11 minutes ago, Kilamandaros said:

No more TLDs on Hive Tyrant I notice

I don't remember exactly when, but it was somewhere late 8e/early 9e that they ditched those. They pulled a bunch of stuff of Forgeworld and canned those options.

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, Toxichobbit said:

 

So you did. Sorry. I completely blanked on that sentence somehow.

 

I'm just going to try to stick to Tyranids, so this is at least somewhat on topic. It's difficult to vocalise some of it, hopefully I'll be able to explain clearly, but if you want any clarification on anything just ask. Maybe explaining how we played will be the best way.

 

Our games in 9th were all Crusade. What we really enjoyed was developing our armies, customising characters & to a lesser extent, units. Almost like an RPG. Things like giving a Marine character a relic bolt pistol, even though it was terrible, was just fun to make him a bit more unique & have a different, customised bolt pistol to everyone else. Or another player giving his Saim-Hann Autarch the relic laser lance because he'd converted up a cool model that fitted it perfectly. Often we'd choose relics for the lore behind them as much as for how cool they felt. We'd roll random psychic powers, random warlord traits, random battle traits, random weapon upgrades. Anything that could be random, was. It wasn't about customising to make the best combination, it was about creating something that was unique, both model and rules wise. Like having your own special character. And all that randomness lead to some truly weird combinations that we'd have never considered normally. Plus, rolling on random tables is just fun. Will you get something characterful that fits, or something weird where you can flex your imagination to come up with a bit of lore behind it? Will it be a good combination, or will you end up with an incompetent dullard who fumbles around the table? Honestly, the weird & (competitively) bad combinations were often the most exciting to us. It was the most fun we'd had with 40k in the last decade and a half, at least.

 

I don't see how any of this changes in 10th; you don't get to roll random psychic powers (This isn't a bad thing.  Psychic phase sucked, imo.) and probably no warlord traits since we haven't heard anything about them either, but otherwise pretty much everything you love about Crusade is retained in 10th.  Including the ability to be random about things; from the warcom article on crusade rules;

 

You can roll to see which Battle Honours you acquire, or pick whichever one makes the most narrative sense for your unit – ultimately, the focus is on telling a fun and engaging story rather than optimising the perfect killer unit, so it’s entirely up to you.

 

1 hour ago, Toxichobbit said:

Now, I'm not blind to the previews. I've known that there was going to be a big reduction in customisation. I've accepted that and somewhat come to terms with it. Even so, it really sucks that if we choose to play 10th (which we'd like to do, because cool new models) we either have to house rule the crap out of it, or just accept that the thing that had us so enthusiastic for 40k is gone. I was, perhaps naively, hoping that when we saw the full datasheets some of the interest would be put back in. But reading the Tyranid datasheets, they just feel so bland. None of the enhancements feel exciting. The characters,, while not awful, feel very samey. For example, if I use Tyranids in our next Crusade and our other Tyranid player does, we're both going to have very similar Hive Tyrants, very similar Broodlords, identical melee Warriors.

 

You keep saying there's a reduction in customization, but I just don't see it.  Removing the choice of "Do I take an underpowered weapon and just deal with it or do I take the overwpoered weapon and dislike my model slightly more" is mostly gone; now you can run pretty much whatever on the model, make it look HOW you want it to, and it'll operate the same as anyone else's version of that unit, without worrying that you're not min-maxing.  You can now run basically any army configuration that you want, no longer limited to the FOC, or Arks of Omen's weird "You gotta take at least 3 of one class of unit, but not HQ's" restriction.  These are both HUGE benefits to customization; unless your customization is literally "How do I customize to be better than someone else" instead of "I customize my models cuz I love X/y/Z trait about them."
 

I also don't see how this bares out with anything that we know of the crusade rules.  The War-Com article and all rumors point to a more robust Crusade ruleset, with more strategems and enhancements that can ONLY be taken in Crusade.  The interviews with people who have seen it say that it has all the same bonuses as 9th's Crusade ruleset, but now it's been tested for 4 years and they have made even more options available.  Hell, even just deciding to take a weapon upgrade is straight up better in 10th Crusade; you get two bonuses instead of one with every level up!  That's a great way to make your guys more bespoke if you pick your own enhancements, and if you decide to roll randomly for them, you're almost GUARANTEEING that you won't have similar units to someone else.

Your basic units should feel samey.  They are basic.  It's the flavor of the battlescars and honors and crusade blessing and relics that will make them feel bespoke and give them that flavor and customization you're looking for.

 

1 hour ago, Toxichobbit said:

By all rights, I should be more excited about this edition than previous ones, because I love Tyranids & I really enjoy customising Marines. My favourite part of the lore has always been the Tyrannic Wars. It captures that Aliens/Starship Troopers feeling that I really enjoy. So Leviathan, model wise, is pretty much a perfect release for me. I'm excited about the models. I'm excited about the lore. I like the core rules. But the unit datasheets, visually seeing the lack of customisation (rather than just reading about it), seeing stuff like Primes & Neurothropes being rolled into units as a special rule ... for me, it's a huge downer on this release.

 

Hopefully the Crusade rules and the Codexes will bring some of that excitement back.

 

I'm not telling you have to Rah Rah everything GW does, but this edition is looking pretty slick, and more importantly than ANY of the above, way easier to get people into playing.  As someone who's already playing the casual side of the game, it should be reading as a win/win for you.  Plus, both of your factions are getting Codexes, which will come with more detatchments, enhancements, and other gribblies within the first few months of the edition, meaning your worry about crap enhancements (Not that I think the Tyranid enhancements are crap, I think all of them are legit useful in their own ways without completely eclipsing each other, besides maybe Perfectly Adapted).

Also I want to say; thank you for actually engaging.  Too often I think that people on here see someone disagree, and just shut down and walk away.  If we can't talk through these things, we won't ever see another perspective for our own, so I appreciate you giving me another shot to talk about this stuff.  Truly.  Thank you.

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

@Toxichobbit I think the difference in players is more when they started playing 40 instead of how they like to build lists.

 

Back in the days of 3rd and 4th you were able to actually fine tune your nids to a given role with their biomorphs, and create that "hyper evolved to solve a problem". The freedom of biomorphs and the need to excel in certain roles has been a bit lost to time; now 40k is all about taking "the best™" weapon that solves every possible problem. 

 

Nah, it's just our world's need to always be the absolute best.  "If you aren't first, you're last" as Ricky Bobby once said.  It's :cuss:ing nonsense.  When someone started the hobby has no bearing on whether or not they suffer from competitive brain rot; plenty of grognards on these boards and abroad alone scream about the competitive side of things even though they also claim to not play competitively, and just as many will gladly try to play an all dreadnoughts all comers list for fun.  It's a matter of perspective and whether or not you can internalize that we're all just playing jumped up GI Joe's :P

[Kilamandaros]

14 minutes ago, Kallas said:

I don't remember exactly when, but it was somewhere late 8e/early 9e that they ditched those. They pulled a bunch of stuff of Forgeworld and canned those options.

 

Ah I skipped 9th edition so that must have been then, shame as they were iconic addons for the kit!

[Mr. Oddity]

It's interesting that the barbgaunt disruption ability still isn't limited to a single unit like other targeted effects we've seen previewed. Wonder if that's intentional or if we'll see an errata/update to address it?

[danodan123]

So, there are four options for enhancements in an index (so far) and you can take three... 

 

Are we ever going to see an army list with fewer then 3 characters moving forward then? 

[DemonGSides]

2 minutes ago, danodan123 said:

So, there are four options for enhancements in an index (so far) and you can take three... 

 

Are we ever going to see an army list with fewer then 3 characters moving forward then? 

 

I believe enhancements have a cost attached to them, so probably.

[mel_danes]

Even if they don't have a cost, not everyone that plays is looking for maximum benefit.

 

Some players give more focus to theme, not efficiency. YMMV.

[tinpact]

Some good and some bad, I think.

 

The arbitrary flattening is disappointing. At the same time, Warriors in particular have been one of the "magnetize or else" units, so it's kind of a relief not to worry about that for an edition. And there's the issue of why to even bother taking anti-GEQ on Warriors when you can take Gaunts.

 

You can field twice as many units now with separate entries for melee and ranged, so that's fun. If they really do add Shrikes later that's potentially an all-Warrior army.

 

 

[Arkhanist]

40 minutes ago, Mr. Oddity said:

It's interesting that the barbgaunt disruption ability still isn't limited to a single unit like other targeted effects we've seen previewed. Wonder if that's intentional or if we'll see an errata/update to address it?

 

As someone with a melee-focused army, I really hope it will get FAQ'd. Though I'm looking forward to starting nids with the models in Leviathan too - finally, new gribblies!

[Zoatibix]

I like the the Flyrant can swap out it’s Sword and Whip for a worse melee option…? One can only assume you get a points refund.

 

Because otherwise, why would you?

 

I am amused by the Carnifex’ Blistering Assault move. 
 

Bit surprised that ‘stealers gave up Advance and Charge for a second wound. Are they going to have them be the lardy ones, with GSC Purestrains being 1 Wound but faster and dodgier? 

[Kallas]

17 minutes ago, Zoatibix said:

I am amused by the Carnifex’ Blistering Assault move. 

This ability definitely made me do a double take. A unit of Carnifexes with Old One Eye needs to be shot by the biggest anti-tank unit you've got at once - if you try to nickle and dime them, they'll get to zoom across the board. Not quite sure why they get so much movement every time, or it's not limited, but it will for sure make them strong units.

[Toxichobbit]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

 

I don't see how any of this changes in 10th; you don't get to roll random psychic powers (This isn't a bad thing.  Psychic phase sucked, imo.) and probably no warlord traits since we haven't heard anything about them either, but otherwise pretty much everything you love about Crusade is retained in 10th.  Including the ability to be random about things; from the warcom article on crusade rules;

 

 

 

 

 

You keep saying there's a reduction in customization, but I just don't see it.  Removing the choice of "Do I take an underpowered weapon and just deal with it or do I take the overwpoered weapon and dislike my model slightly more" is mostly gone; now you can run pretty much whatever on the model, make it look HOW you want it to, and it'll operate the same as anyone else's version of that unit, without worrying that you're not min-maxing.  You can now run basically any army configuration that you want, no longer limited to the FOC, or Arks of Omen's weird "You gotta take at least 3 of one class of unit, but not HQ's" restriction.  These are both HUGE benefits to customization; unless your customization is literally "How do I customize to be better than someone else" instead of "I customize my models cuz I love X/y/Z trait about them."
 

I also don't see how this bares out with anything that we know of the crusade rules.  The War-Com article and all rumors point to a more robust Crusade ruleset, with more strategems and enhancements that can ONLY be taken in Crusade.  The interviews with people who have seen it say that it has all the same bonuses as 9th's Crusade ruleset, but now it's been tested for 4 years and they have made even more options available.  Hell, even just deciding to take a weapon upgrade is straight up better in 10th Crusade; you get two bonuses instead of one with every level up!  That's a great way to make your guys more bespoke if you pick your own enhancements, and if you decide to roll randomly for them, you're almost GUARANTEEING that you won't have similar units to someone else.

Your basic units should feel samey.  They are basic.  It's the flavor of the battlescars and honors and crusade blessing and relics that will make them feel bespoke and give them that flavor and customization you're looking for.

 

 

I'm not telling you have to Rah Rah everything GW does, but this edition is looking pretty slick, and more importantly than ANY of the above, way easier to get people into playing.  As someone who's already playing the casual side of the game, it should be reading as a win/win for you.  Plus, both of your factions are getting Codexes, which will come with more detatchments, enhancements, and other gribblies within the first few months of the edition, meaning your worry about crap enhancements (Not that I think the Tyranid enhancements are crap, I think all of them are legit useful in their own ways without completely eclipsing each other, besides maybe Perfectly Adapted).

Also I want to say; thank you for actually engaging.  Too often I think that people on here see someone disagree, and just shut down and walk away.  If we can't talk through these things, we won't ever see another perspective for our own, so I appreciate you giving me another shot to talk about this stuff.  Truly.  Thank you.

 

I don't want to get too into this, because I don't want to keep derailing the thread. I wonder though, if our differences in how we view 10th might just be as simple as I enjoy digging into complex rules and using them to create a narrative, which seems to be an odd way to enjoy the game - so the game being streamlined is creating a negative emotion for me. It also might be to do with experiences in 3rd - the transition from 2nd to 3rd was rough, at least for everyone I played with. This feels similar, so there's a visceral emotional reaction to 10th from my (and my friend's) experiences with 3rd.

 

That said, I completely agree with the benefits you mention. When I first saw the Neophytes datasheet (love GSC as well as Nids & Marines) I felt sad that shotguns and autoguns were now just one profile. It felt wrong because they were very different guns. But then I thought "Well, it does allow me to make a real ragtag force with whatever weapons I want mixed in" which I love the idea of. So yeah, I can absolutely see the positives of simplicity giving people the freedom to model things how they would like. And I'm glad that is something that other people will enjoy with this edition.

 

"Too often I think that people on here see someone disagree, and just shut down and walk away.  If we can't talk through these things, we won't ever see another perspective for our own, so I appreciate you giving me another shot to talk about this stuff." - I can't put in to words how much I agree with this. Echo chambers are bad, engaging in people you disagree with for another perspective is good. And honestly, although I'm still not on the 10th train, talking to people on here who disagree with me (you included) does help temper my negative feelings somewhat. Maybe with more time & discussion I'll be able to accept 10th for what it is.

[Laeketh]

28 minutes ago, Zoatibix said:

I like the the Flyrant can swap out it’s Sword and Whip for a worse melee option…? One can only assume you get a points refund.

If you get the Monstrous Scything Talons, they are extra attacks, so you get to attack with both Tyrant Talons and Monstrous Scything Talons, for 9 attacks instead of 6 more powerful attacks with the bonesword and lashwhip.

11 minutes ago, Kallas said:

This ability definitely made me do a double take. A unit of Carnifexes with Old One Eye needs to be shot by the biggest anti-tank unit you've got at once - if you try to nickle and dime them, they'll get to zoom across the board. Not quite sure why they get so much movement every time, or it's not limited, but it will for sure make them strong units.

It is limited to once per phase, see the last sentence of the ability:
"Each unit can only make one Blistering Assault move per phase."

[Zoatibix]

I’d rather have the fewer but S9 D3 attacks.

 

We’re aware that the blistering assault is only once per phase but D6+2 is still good.

[Kallas]

24 minutes ago, Laeketh said:

It is limited to once per phase, see the last sentence of the ability:
"Each unit can only make one Blistering Assault move per phase."

Ah, I missed that, thanks!

[Karhedron]

3 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

@Toxichobbit 

Back in the days of 3rd and 4th you were able to actually fine tune your nids to a given role with their biomorphs, and create that "hyper evolved to solve a problem". The freedom of biomorphs and the need to excel in certain roles has been a bit lost to time; now 40k is all about taking "the best™" weapon that solves every possible problem. 

 

Part of that is due to the wider model range. There is no need to customise the same small range of units to perform different roles as you can now take the dedicated unit for that particular job. More units with more specialisation is usually the way armies grow. 

[Tyriks]

Is there some system I'm missing as to what order these datasheets are in? I'm confused why they aren't in alphabetical order or something.

[DemonGSides]

I couldn't figure it out either.  Felt like, at least at the start, it was HQ's, then Battleline, but then after that it's a no holds barred who the heck knows fest.

Maybe Space Marines will be a bit easier to understand, or at least give us more data to try to figure out how they decided to order things.  I was shocked to see Barbgaunts be the very last entry.

[sandrorect]

1 hour ago, Zoatibix said:

I like the the Flyrant can swap out it’s Sword and Whip for a worse melee option…? One can only assume you get a points refund.

 

Because otherwise, why would you?

 

I am amused by the Carnifex’ Blistering Assault move. 
 

Bit surprised that ‘stealers gave up Advance and Charge for a second wound. Are they going to have them be the lardy ones, with GSC Purestrains being 1 Wound but faster and dodgier? 

 

If you uso the monstrous scyting talons you do 9 atacks instead of 6 because you can use the talons as primary weapon. If you use the bonesword, the talons are for show.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

6 hours ago, TrawlingCleaner said:

 

This big guy is quirky as all hell, maybe this is the way forward with things like Hammerfall bunkers and other faction fortifications?

Ohhh this thing is going to be wicked. 3 of them is going to be a pretty big kill zone add in Barb gaunts to make everything a bit slower. 

[Brother Nathan]

Soo much to digest. Need the points to truely evaluate but seems zoans are still gonna be an autotake for me. And parasite likely too for the giggles. May do a floating army....