Space Wolves Index

[Dark Shepherd]

2 hours ago, Metzombie said:

Why?

I think it needs clarifying how his special rule works in the fight phase; does he just get to interrupt or does he get to fight every time he is attacked PLUS his own regular turn of combat?

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

For those worried about jump pack wolf guard tgey are just Vanguard Veterans now, so they still exist (all be it with the issues of Vanguard veterans now though it appears we wouldn't have doged that looking at tcav)

[Bulwyf]

SW are basically unplayable now. Worst detachment in the game. Strats tied to impossible to achieve sagas. Wulfen and TWC are literally unplayable with nerf bat weapons. Bjorn and Murderfang will be dead by turn 2. 

 

I'm absolutely gutted with how truly crappy the SW rules are. I mean there's no reason to play this. None. 

[Kallas]

1 minute ago, Dark Shepherd said:

I think it needs clarifying how his special rule works in the fight phase; does he just get to interrupt or does he get to fight every time he is attacked PLUS his own regular turn of combat?

If Murderfang (or a DC Dreadnought) is in combat with, say, 3 enemy units he would definitely fight immediately after each enemy unit hits him in melee. I do agree it's unclear if he also gets his normal fight 'action' if he uses this ability before, but it is clear that he would get multiple fights.

 

If he charges in (so gets Fights First) and you fight with him first, you could, potentially, get 4 rounds of attacks with him. It is kind of crazy. Hell, you could even use some of those options to use his ranged weapons (as a vehicle, so he can use Big Guns Never Tire) to shoot something else nearby, since the ability doesn't state it must be the shoot/fight related to the phase you're in and he would be eligible to shoot in melee!

[Guest Triszin]

Oh more issues on wolf guard termis

 

Oh, one final complaint on wolf guard terminators.

If you take a heavy weapon.
Assault/flamer you get no other ranged/melee weapon.
You only have the heavy

If you take cyclone you at least get a storm bolter

[Dark Legionnare]

4 minutes ago, Triszin said:

Oh more issues on wolf guard termis

 

Oh, one final complaint on wolf guard terminators.

If you take a heavy weapon.
Assault/flamer you get no other ranged/melee weapon.
You only have the heavy

If you take cyclone you at least get a storm bolter

Yeah, I noticed that too. So many absolutely lazy misses.  Quality attention to detail from GW as per usual, haha. 

*cough* BS3, WS4 DEDICATED MELEE EXPERTS lance-charge krieg cavaly armed with lances made out of wobbly pool noodles but sniper-accurate laspistols of 9th *cough*

[L30n1d4s]

So, I have a mixed view of this Index:

 

Negatives:

-Space Wolf Scouts only have 1W (got to be an error, hopefully fixed in a FAQ)

-Basic Wolf Guard got the VV treatment, with crappy S5 AP-1 Heirloom Weapons (and no options to improve their CC ability)

-No access to JP Wolf Guard anymore

-Typo on WG Terminators (I assume typo, hopefully), where Heavy Weapons replace both PF and SB (leaving them with no CCW of any type)

-Wulfen may have gotten shafted even more than Vanguard Vets... all their special weapons (including THs and Frost Claws) got reduced to S5 AP-1 options, and they don't even get anything like Scout moves, Advance and Charge, etc., nor doe they get anyway to buff the units around them like they used to... wow, they took it on the chin!

-Like Wufen and VVs, TWC got "Heirloom Weaponed" into a mediocre melee weapon profile, with no options to get improved wargear (even on a Sgt)... they do get +1 Dmg on the charge, but that still does not make up for the massive nerf to their melee potential overall

-Sagas are good and can be "stacked," but unlike all other Astartes factions, haved to be "earned," so kind of a case of poorer when you are losing already, and richer when you are winning already I think. While not bad per se, they seem to be a power step below most of the other Astartes detachment rules.

 

Positives:

-Good collection of Strats across the board

-Enhancements are excellent, with Frost Weapons (+1S/-AP and Precision on model's melee weapons) and Black Death (Anti-Monster 4+/ Anti-Vehicle 4+ on model's melee weapons... really powerful on Thunder Hammers!) as standouts

-Both versions of Logan Grimnar are solid, especially his "Waaaghhh-like" once a game re-rolls to charge and hit in melee across the whole army

-Njal giving a Terminator unit he is attached to Stealth (very solid)

-Bjorn being very tough, and also a strong ranged character, so a good chance to completing several of the Sagas with shooting early on in the game (vice waiting until Turn 2+ when most characters can finally get stuck in)

-Arjac ring awesome damage against both characters and Monsters and, also, buffing his unit's durability against high strength attacks

-Ulrik is AMAZING!!!... aura of Ld5+ (not even Primarchs give this) and his Slayer's Oath with just wreck units (especially Characters/Monsters/Vehicles)

-Ragnar is a beat stick (as he should be), can join both Primaris and Firstborn units, and gives his squad Advance and Charge all the time

-Wolf Lord on Thunder Wolf is strong, gives free Strat to attached TWC, and also gives improved mobility

-Blood Claws are very strong, getting +1A/S on the charge (so their chainswords are 4A at S5 AP-1) and they can still have 15 models plus a WGPL attached

-Grey Hunters still very versatile, with option to have 2 SWs, PF on the Sgt, Chainsword/Bolter on everyone else, and free Advance/Fall Back and Shoot (they can also fit in a Razorback with 2 SWs and pop out to shoot with full re-rolls to Wound from the Razoback special rule

-WG Terminators still have access to wide variety of weapons, including Combo-Weapons across the whole squad (with Oath of Moment and Wolf Guard special rules, they are hitting on re-rollable 3+s, then causing MWs to infantry on re-rollable 4+s, all after they Deep Struck in for free)

-Hounds of Morkai are actually quite respectable, and downright dangerous versus Psykers (GKs and Thousand Sons better look out!)

-Murderfang is ridiculous... basically, as long as he is alive, he gets to fight again every time a unit attacks him... charge into three different units, he gets to attacks first, then he can potentially fight 3 more times!! that same phase, as long as he survives each of the other unit's attacks back

-Skyclaws can still have 15 models and get +1 to hit and re-roll their Charges for free, plus can still take a WGPL

-Long Fangs keep their unique ability to have 5 HWs (including Heavy Flamers and Grav Cannons, which they have not always had access to), plus they get built in re-rolls of 1 to Hit "built-in... again, I'd say they are an excellent unit to ride in a Razorback and benefit from its re-roll to Wound special rule

-Stormfang finally has decent Firepower from its Hellfrost Destructor, including the ability to use it as Torrent weapon and the option to "freeze" a target Monster/Vehicle (reducing the target's move/advance/charge by -2".... Knights will hate this)

-GW did a great job handling WG Pack Leaders... at first, reading through, I thought they had dropped them entirely and was ready (along with every other SW player, probably) to curse their name for losing so much lore/flavor/unique rules, but looks like they found an elegant way to include them as characters that can only attach to certain units. On top of this, WGPL in TDA now can take Heavy Weapons and attach to Blood Claws, Grey Hunters, or Long Fangs!

-SW Venerable Dread gives re-roll 1s to hit/1s to wound to nearby Infantry... best single force-multiplier unit in 10th edition so far!

 

 

Overall, I think the positives outweigh the negatives, but there are some real negatives here, so mixed bag, all things considered.

 

 

[Guest Triszin]

And just remember, if your wolf guard termis takes a heavy weapon he can't melee

[Arkangilos]

1 hour ago, Triszin said:

And just remember, if your wolf guard termis takes a heavy weapon he can't melee

I'm willing to bet that is a mistake.

[Ehfull]

1 hour ago, L30n1d4s said:

 

-Blood Claws are very strong, getting +1A/S on the charge (so their chainswords are 4A at S5 AP-1) and they can still have 15 models plus a WGPL attached

Compare it to assault squad on foot from the SM index.

 

1 hour ago, L30n1d4s said:

-Skyclaws can still have 15 models and get +1 to hit and re-roll their Charges for free, plus can still take a WGPL

Same thing compare it to assault squad in jet pack from the SM index.

The assault squad is a better blood claws than ours haha, seem bad. (OK if it's cheapest but I dont see why assault squad are better than ours [and vice et versa])

1 hour ago, L30n1d4s said:

-GW did a great job handling WG Pack Leaders... at first, reading through, I thought they had dropped them entirely and was ready (along with every other SW player, probably) to curse their name for losing so much lore/flavor/unique rules, but looks like they found an elegant way to include them as characters that can only attach to certain units. On top of this, WGPL in TDA now can take Heavy Weapons and attach to Blood Claws, Grey Hunters, or Long Fangs!

I was happy to and after I see that the WG character have less A than sergent in assault squad. And be vulnerable to precision. If it's not really cheap it's useless.

[gaurdian31]

Why do SW not get a healer? Every other chapter gets them, why not SW Games Workshop? This makes no sense! I don't see any super combos having an apothecary or Wolf Priest would make. I might mostly play Chaos, but Space Wolves are my Space Marine chapter of choice when playing loyalists.

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

While it's hyper clear gw did no proof reading here I do have hope for wolves getting a pretty rapid fix to the index. 

 

The howling will be loud until this is resolved. 

[jaxom]

Wow, what a poorly written Index. Some of the units (Murderfang, Ragnar) are really good and the Helfrost weapons are looking nice. Otherwise there's a lot of questionable decision choices. 

 

6 hours ago, Bradeh said:

I think the unfortunate reality is the non updated Primaris chapters are going to be a weird place rules wise until they get refreshed. The whole, 'Firstborn is back' was clearly a facade. 

 

They are back, kind of. The big unit split is now not-Tacticus and Tacticus keyword. It's entirely for gating certain units from being transported by certain other units (as there's an identical character version for not-Tacticus and Tacticus in the Marine Index). So long as the weapons match the datasheet (and any transport is correct), there's no difference between Primaris Tactical Squad and Firstborn Tactical Squad.

 

The Black Templar Primaris units and characters did not far much better in their index compared to the Wolf non-Primaris units; it's more of a case of the rules being weird across the board and Chapter-specific units getting hosed. 

 

6 hours ago, Starlight_Wolf said:

 

Does this mean there's potential for primaris versions of said units down the line, a la BT Crusader squad?

 

If so Primaris sized TWC would be quite something (unless just the rider bulks up and the mount stays roughly the same)

 

Yes, but it may not make a difference. Sternguard have new models, but also received the same weapon consolidation that Vanguard Veterans got. The only difference is the Sternguard bolters are good and the heirloom weapons are probably not worth the points compared to an Assault Squad, unless it turns out the Storm Shields are still really needed. 

 

I can guess why Sword Brethren got to keep their Thunder Hammer. They're from the "it's in the kit so it's on the datacard" era, no one was building them with 5 TH to start with. Whereas the VV and TWC existing out there could have any number of different weapon combinations, so they'll just folded in. If there was a "you can include a heavy heirloom weapon per 5" type thing, the player with all TH and SS would be out-of-luck; hence, the cover-all decision.

 

5 hours ago, Carnivore said:

I seriously doubt this will even ping on most anyone else’s radar, but I’m gutted they knocked my favorite character, Arjac Rockfist, down to a generic S8 from his mighty S10. I hate when they can’t just let characterful stuff be. He wasn’t game-breaking, but I loved his uniqueness and the fact that every now and again his strength and special attack caught someone by surprise and did something epic. He can still throw his hammer, that’s something, but it’s just basic thunder hammer strength now. Doesn’t really fit the fluff of the biggest and strongest Firstborn Space Wolf/Space Marine in the current setting. 

 

Strength 10 would put Arjac into reliable tank-killing and considering he's meant to hunt characters, Str8 - with Anti-Monster 2+ for things like Hive Tyrants and Primarchs - seems the right place.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

50 minutes ago, gaurdian31 said:

Why do SW not get a healer? Every other chapter gets them, why not SW Games Workshop? This makes no sense! I don't see any super combos having an apothecary or Wolf Priest would make. I might mostly play Chaos, but Space Wolves are my Space Marine chapter of choice when playing loyalists.

 

Not having apothecaries is somewhat fluffy, wolf priests (our chaplains) have traditionally held that role. I'd argue that there probably should be Primaris Apothecaries, because some of them would have received training before they got to the fang, and I would think the successor chapters probably just kept using apothecaries.

 

That said the wolf priests not having healing sort of made sense when we were combined with the vanilla dex, but now that we aren't they really should have something.

 

Honestly this index was pretty disapointing.

[OttoVonAwesome]

Holy crap did they do a number on Space Wolves. Hierloom bs weapons everywhere, Thunderwolves and Wulfen too? But Terminators are fine of course come on. Is this a scheme to sell more terminators? The dreadnoughts are all rad and I'm super jealous but also Wolf Scouts are 1 wound? Really? The only scouts that are cannonically full marines have 1 wound?

 

I'm so glad I stopped collecting Wolves in 4th edition cuase this index is just messed right up. Like lemme get this straight anything than can take a storm shield isn't a terminator just gets boned cuase look at the Death Company. Still rad. This is crazy.

Edited June 12, 2023 by OttoVonAwesome

[Blindhamster]

1 hour ago, Ehfull said:

Compare it to assault squad on foot from the SM index.

 

Same thing compare it to assault squad in jet pack from the SM index.

The assault squad is a better blood claws than ours haha, seem bad. (OK if it's cheapest but I dont see why assault squad are better than ours [and vice et versa])

I was happy to and after I see that the WG character have less A than sergent in assault squad. And be vulnerable to precision. If it's not really cheap it's useless.

back in the day, blood claws were worse than actual assault squads, they had lower WS and BS. They're the space wolves raw recruits like scouts in other chapters, most likely blood claws will be cheaper than assault squads

[OttoVonAwesome]

8 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

back in the day, blood claws were worse than actual assault squads, they had lower WS and BS. They're the space wolves raw recruits like scouts in other chapters, most likely blood claws will be cheaper than assault squads

Yeah Blood Claws weren't really a kick in the teeth like the other units. They used to be worse and in exchange they get bigger units and +1 to hit on the charge argueably they are a sidegrade rather than a downgrade.

[Runefyre]

1 hour ago, gaurdian31 said:

Why do SW not get a healer? Every other chapter gets them, why not SW Games Workshop? This makes no sense! I don't see any super combos having an apothecary or Wolf Priest would make. I might mostly play Chaos, but Space Wolves are my Space Marine chapter of choice when playing loyalists.

We do have healers, they're called Wolf Priests, but GW just refuses to accept they exist. It's complete BS.

 

Just give us a unique Wolf Priest dataslate like we got in HH, a combined apothecary/chaplain but costed higher. Problem solved.

[Dark Shepherd]

4 hours ago, Kallas said:

If Murderfang (or a DC Dreadnought) is in combat with, say, 3 enemy units he would definitely fight immediately after each enemy unit hits him in melee. I do agree it's unclear if he also gets his normal fight 'action' if he uses this ability before, but it is clear that he would get multiple fights.

 

If he charges in (so gets Fights First) and you fight with him first, you could, potentially, get 4 rounds of attacks with him. It is kind of crazy. Hell, you could even use some of those options to use his ranged weapons (as a vehicle, so he can use Big Guns Never Tire) to shoot something else nearby, since the ability doesn't state it must be the shoot/fight related to the phase you're in and he would be eligible to shoot in melee!

I could be wrong on the activation mechanics but itd be a hoot if you just kept consolidating Murderfang into enemy units and he kept reacting to being attacked and he just slingshotted through half the enemy army

[spessmarine]

4 hours ago, Hellex_The_Thanatar said:

While it's hyper clear gw did no proof reading here I do have hope for wolves getting a pretty rapid fix to the index.

 

No I'd say it seems like the wolves got fixed quite thoroughly by GW, if you catch my drift

[SkimaskMohawk]

4 hours ago, jaxom said:

The Black Templar Primaris units and characters did not far much better in their index compared to the Wolf non-Primaris units;

 

Ehhh, you sure about that? A primaris crusaders blob with a captain and Lt combo can one round a lot of units including Morty and the Lion if you burn Finest Hour on the latter. 

Edited June 13, 2023 by SkimaskMohawk

[Nuriel-666]

Yes! Finally loyalist feel exactly what we, veterans of the Long War feel! No longer only CSM playera are the most neglected, red-headed child of the family ;-)

 

Of course, I'm kidding. It's awful that your "codex" sucks and it's gutted from flavorful options.

 

Edited June 13, 2023 by Nuriel-666

[Ehfull]

9 hours ago, OttoVonAwesome said:

Yeah Blood Claws weren't really a kick in the teeth like the other units. They used to be worse and in exchange they get bigger units and +1 to hit on the charge argueably they are a sidegrade rather than a downgrade.

 

9 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

back in the day, blood claws were worse than actual assault squads, they had lower WS and BS. They're the space wolves raw recruits like scouts in other chapters, most likely blood claws will be cheaper than assault squads

Yes but at this time they got more special mele weapon and more A in charge, it's not the case here.

[Blindhamster]

They may be cheaper than assault squads, plus fielded in larger units

[Karhedron]

3 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

They may be cheaper than assault squads, plus fielded in larger units

 

Larger units are most resilient to Battleshock so there may be some value there (beyond simply being a bucket of dice). Only problem is you need a Stormwolf or LRC to reliably delievr them.