Deathwatch Index

[VengefulJan]

3 hours ago, Burni said:

So if I want to use a Corvus Blackstar, I have to use the DW detachment? Or can I use it with Gladius and just miss out on kill teams etc?

Yes…

 

Yeah "I CaN rEaD"; I'm a dummy.

Edited June 12, 2023 by VengefulJan

[Burni]

Thanks Medicinal Carrots!

Edited June 12, 2023 by Burni

[Slips]

1 minute ago, Burni said:

Yes to which question? 

By my reading, you dont lose access to any DW unit by taking a Gladius. You just arent allowed to take the units listed when taking a Blackspear Task Force.

 

So you can have Kill teams and a Corvus in a Gladius.

[Stargate_wars]

4 hours ago, Rikev said:

Also yes, I'm not sure what that transports rule for bikes etc reads as.

If I understand the Kill Team rule a Proteus team of 6 Veterans, 1 Biker and 1 Terminator can go in a Rhino.

[Feral_80]

Well the potentially crazy generation of MW will be addressed soon, I'm sure. Not excited one bit by the combos.

 

Moving beyond that, I like that primaris/firstborn KTs abilities are perfectly complementary to one another. I hope that is meant to encourage mixing and using mutually supporting units.

 

Not sure I get the point of mixing models in a KT, however (apart from doing funny stuff when embarking in vehicles, perhaps): no combat-squadding takes away much of the sense of mixing in bikes/JP with infantry, it seems.

Perhaps KT are now only good at providing cheap (? depends on pts) meat shields for 'specially equipped Heavy Intercessors' (= Aggressors and Eradicators) in Indomitor, and for 'specially equipped Intercessors' (= Hellblasters) in Fortis. But I'm not sure that is worth losing the special rules that each standard unit would get on its own.

[jaxom]

@fudblinker, @Rikev, @Stargate_wars The writing is pretty bad and I don't think the rules are actually functional, as written.

 

 

 

Note how it says "embark within any TRANSPORT their unit can embark within," and not  "embark withing any TRANSPORT a model in the unit can embark within". So the Kill-Team has to be able to embark in the Transport and that's done on a keyword basis. So what does this rule actually do? Let's take a look at the Rhino and the Corvus:

 

 

Their unit cannot embark within because it's doesn't meet the requirements even though some of the models do. This is the first instance of the poor writing, if the intent was for Terminators/Bikes to go in Rhinos. The Corvus shows us what may have been the other intent.

 

 

Two scenarios: 1) The Corvus can fit 12 Infantry Models or 2) the Corvus can fit one whole Kill-Team. If going with option 2, the amount of "model space" doesn't matter; the Kill-Team fits. But! Option 1 - let's say you want to put two Kill-Teams in a Corvus. Now, you're embarking in a transport where the unit is on the embarkation list. Your Kill-Team's bikes and terminators take up two slots instead of two and three, respectively. Note, the Veteran Bike and Terminator Squads don't have the Kill-Team keyword, so they'd take up normal space.

 

TL;DR: the rules are really badly written and, as written, it means Bikes only take up 2 spots on a Corvus when they part of a Kill-Team unit.

[VengefulJan]

@Burni Sorry, I should have clarified, my bad. By my reading, you get all the units there on the index, all you lose is the detachment and its enhancements and strats. The Core SM index clarifies that you can have units that have a 2nd faction keyword, but only if you don't include units with a different 2nd faction keyword (i.e. you can't snag ragnar blackmane or deathwing knights with your deathwatch). The Kill Team army rule is tied to the datasheet, and the datasheet is legal for regular space marine armies. All those Kill Teams like proteus and Fortis etc. are far game too.

[Silas7]

Fortis Killteam Astartes Chainswords are WS 4+

[Stargate_wars]

@jaxom The example I did because Kill-Team Vets with Jump packs, Bikers and Terminators don't have the keywords needed for them not to be able to go the rhino, unlike in 9th where they did gain the needed keywords when choosing which transport they could enter.

[Kallas]

14 hours ago, L30n1d4s said:

I am not sure GW thought this through all the way! ;)

Say it ain't so! GW would never release stuff in a terribly broken and hideous mess! 

[Rikev]

On 6/12/2023 at 11:13 PM, jaxom said:

@fudblinker, @Rikev, @Stargate_wars The writing is pretty bad and I don't think the rules are actually functional, as written.

 

 

 

Note how it says "embark within any TRANSPORT their unit can embark within," and not  "embark withing any TRANSPORT a model in the unit can embark within". So the Kill-Team has to be able to embark in the Transport and that's done on a keyword basis. So what does this rule actually do? Let's take a look at the Rhino and the Corvus:

 

 

Their unit cannot embark within because it's doesn't meet the requirements even though some of the models do. This is the first instance of the poor writing, if the intent was for Terminators/Bikes to go in Rhinos. The Corvus shows us what may have been the other intent.

 

 

Two scenarios: 1) The Corvus can fit 12 Infantry Models or 2) the Corvus can fit one whole Kill-Team. If going with option 2, the amount of "model space" doesn't matter; the Kill-Team fits. But! Option 1 - let's say you want to put two Kill-Teams in a Corvus. Now, you're embarking in a transport where the unit is on the embarkation list. Your Kill-Team's bikes and terminators take up two slots instead of two and three, respectively. Note, the Veteran Bike and Terminator Squads don't have the Kill-Team keyword, so they'd take up normal space.

 

TL;DR: the rules are really badly written and, as written, it means Bikes only take up 2 spots on a Corvus when they part of a Kill-Team unit.

 

So looking at it, it does function. All models in a Kill Team have the INFANTRY keyword, but do not have the BIKER, TERMINATOR or JUMP PACK keywords. So if you wanted you could shove all the models into a Rhino and it is legal. They are just kill team models armed differently (the biker does have alternate stats but no mention of a keyword difference anywhere).

[our_baz]

Would I be right in also reading that any of the leader options that you might want to include in a DW army from the marine index (e.g. Cpt, Apothecary, libby etc) cannot become attached to any of the bespoke DW units (e.g. Vet Kill Team, Fortis / Proteus Jill Teams) as they don't have the correct key words under "Leader" in the data sheets in the SM Index?

 

Need to get my eyes tested, disregard

Edited June 14, 2023 by our_baz
missed the obvious answer on the unit data sheets

[Feral_80]

It's clearly written in each unit's datasheet: 'vanilla' characters can be attached according to the instructions provided for each unit/KT under 'Attached Unit'.

 

E.g., Fortis KT can attach characters which can be attached to Intercessor Squads. Etc. etc.

[our_baz]

5 minutes ago, Feral_80 said:

It's clearly written in each unit's datasheet: 'vanilla' characters can be attached according to the instructions provided for each unit/KT under 'Attached Unit'.

 

E.g., Fortis KT can attach characters which can be attached to Intercessor Squads. Etc. etc.

So it is thank you.

 

[TrawlingCleaner]

 

The updated index is here

 

[Kilamandaros]

A nerf before the edition has even started!

 

Definitely needed though and shows the benefit of digital rules.

[Bouargh]

Bad tempered ones may claim this is the definitive proof that play testing was largely skipped and that game design is not based on any statistical tool (afterall, resolving 40k actions is mainly based on maths and probabilities).

I will not go further into that kind of argument that I largely second as it will not in the end change anything to the situation.

 

A real and more concerned comment would rather be: "Great it has been updated, and how do I know it?"

Unless I missed it tehre is not even a revision mark on the set of datasheet. How do yoe make yourself aware that te datasheet and detacment sheet that is used (by you or oponent) is up to date? Headaches in perspective as anyone can be mistaken out of any malicious purpose of any kind, in good faith. Should not be too dificult to get a version number. 

 

Auspex Tactics has it covered and interesting info is the update frequency:

- Codex FAQ - Erratas: about 2-4 weeks after release

- Points update: 4 per year

- Balance dataslate: twice a year

 

(I do not really understand how they can adjust poitn more often than the balance dataslate).

 

Anyway, Great news (btw, this is a sarcasm)!

 

3 hours ago, Kilamandaros said:

A nerf before the edition has even started!

Definitely needed though and shows the benefit of digital rules.

 

We keep on going as in 9th, a game design without any course. Free digital rules save the day of course . but it won´t last forever...   

 

 

[Smoke Frog]

The biggest thing I was looking at in the new Deathwatch Index was what kinds of marines would make up each kill team. Using the old names to the best of my memory:

 

Proteus Kill Team

• 5-10 Deathwatch Veterans
• 0-4 Jump Packs (Vanguard Veterans)
• 0-2 Veteran Bikers
• 0-4 Terminators

Fortis Kill Team

• 5-10 Intercessors
• 0-4 Hellblasters
• 0-4 Assault Intercessors
• 0-2 Outriders (primaris bike dudes)

Indomitor Kill Team

• 5-10 Heavy Intercessors
• 0-2 Aggressors
• 0-2 Eradicators
• 0-2 Inceptors (jump pack dudes)

Spectrus Kill Team

• 5-10 Infiltrators
• 0-2 Eradicators
• 0-2 Suppressors
• 0-4 Incursors
• 0-4 Reivers

Weapon option errors notwithstanding, I like that the Suppressors got added somewhere that is a cool addition. 

 

Why no Infernus marines or the guys with the nerf guns (desolators?) Surprised they didn't make the cut, it would have been neat to see them added to the Fortis Kill Team roster.  I am less surprised the Bladeguard didn't make an appearance but that would have been cool too. 

 

I also think its hilarious from a business-standpoint how by giving 0-2 limits on many of the cool toys that kill teams could play with in the past, that now its a way to encourage buying more marines! Not something I am necessarily happy with either of course, because I can't field an Indomitor Kill Team above 7 minis right now. I always found the 5-man teams of Eliminators pretty cool too, or the idea of a 4-man Eliminator plus one Incursor/Infilitrator a cool option but looks like that is a no-go now too. 

[Feral_80]

Ouch.

 

Had a first glance at the munitorum field manual. Fixed pts means our incredibly varied and potentially expensive options seems to make most KT not worth it.

 

Compare:

DW Veterans: 100-200 pts = 5-10 models @ 20 pts per model

Proteus KT (currently the worst of all): 165-330 pts = 5-10 models @ 33 pts per model

 

The latter factors in that 5 of those models might be a mix of (jump pack Vanguard), Terminators and Bikes. But it basically forces us to do so, and without combat squadding I do not think it is really worth it.

 

Fortis and Indomitor might be in a better situation. Compare their costs with regular Intercessors/H.Intercessors and they might still be worth it.

 

But man, doex fixed pts cost hurt us badly.

[MadEdric]

1 hour ago, Feral_80 said:

Ouch.

 

Had a first glance at the munitorum field manual. Fixed pts means our incredibly varied and potentially expensive options seems to make most KT not worth it.

 

Compare:

DW Veterans: 100-200 pts = 5-10 models @ 20 pts per model

Proteus KT (currently the worst of all): 165-330 pts = 5-10 models @ 33 pts per model

 

The latter factors in that 5 of those models might be a mix of (jump pack Vanguard), Terminators and Bikes. But it basically forces us to do so, and without combat squadding I do not think it is really worth it.

 

Fortis and Indomitor might be in a better situation. Compare their costs with regular Intercessors/H.Intercessors and they might still be worth it.

 

But man, doex fixed pts cost hurt us badly.

Exactly, I always liked to add one terminator to my Proteus teams for flavor, but taking one terminator in a 10 man team (because it has to be 10 man to add any other models besides vets) is basically paying 150 points just to add one terminator. That is the points difference of the two teams plus the extra 20 you would be spending for the 10 vet.

[Boyadventurer]

**Edit: I was writing this the night before the points list came out. I didn't want to go back and rewrite everything. Clearly I've got more thoughts now that we've seen the points! **

I'm stepping out of a warp rift after being in the Mortal Realms for most of the last 3 years (This joke would have played better in the Grey Knights forum...) with 50+ 3d printed successor chapter shoulder pads and  I'm ready to share my DW thoughts that no one asked for:

- I too am surprised Infernus and Desolator marines are not included in the Fortis. Especially since missile launchers have been a random inclusion  Maybe there's other units still coming for SM that would further shake up the KT structure so they left things relatively the same for now?
- Losing blackshields hurt, but this edition is more about unit rules rather than individual models adding something, so unless they were going to make them a low level hero, there wasn't much of a place for them. My judiciar and company champ are modeled as blackshields, so I still have that flavour in there at least.
- It's lame that Assault Intercessors are still one of the "special" options for a Fortis. They couldn't just make it 5+ Intercessors either with rifles or chainswords? (Also hoping the 4+ WS on the Assault Ints is a mistake).
- Funny that, with everyone already complaining about vanilla Vanguard Vets, ours are like extra useless.
- Losing combat squads REALLY sucks.

That's all mostly poopooing on it. I do have some nice things to say too:

- IDK why but I like how the *other* guys in the KTs are still referred to as the main guys (ie Intercessor with plasma incinerator).
- They made the character-joining-a-KT aspect pretty easy. I could imagine it ending up a lot more convoluted. It's nice and fluffy for DW. 
- I kinda like SIA becoming strats that can be used across more units. Yeah it's silly that assault cannons or whatever are benefiting from it too, but it was also silly that they removed it from Intercessors too.
- Lifting (most) transport restrictions is great. My Vets are on primaris bodies now so I just kind of erased the difference in my headcannon already.
- I feel like they did do a pretty good job of simplifying things without causing a mess or too much of a shakeup like every other time they've reworked DW.

*Okay post points update Mike here. I guess the stuff about Kill Team composition doesn't really matter now cause KTs kinda suck right? 100 points for 5 vets, vs 165 for 5 vets in a Proteus. LESS weapon options for the Proteus vets for some reason, all they GAIN as a bonus is getting the SIA strat across 2 KTs instead of one unit. I don't really see the benefit of KTs beside that. Even using the basic guys as ablative wounds for the Terminators/Eradiators/Eliminators/etc doesn't really seem viable since you can't cheap out the basic guys. I'm not horribly against the "wrap all options into one point cost" idea, but I just don't get why it's so much more expensive? A fully kitted proteus kill team (5 vets, 4 termies, 1 biker) should be 294 points, but costs 330. If KTs kept their individual unit's abilities (Hellblasters keeping shoot on death, etc) I can understand why they are charged a premium. But right now I'm just super confused.

[Stargate_wars]

I don't like the base cost of the Kill Teams.

Proteus Teams +13pts per model vs Veterans

Indomintor Teams +5pts per model vs Heavy Intercessors

Fortis Teams +5pts per model vs Intercessors

Spectrus Teams +4pts per model vs Infiltrators

Most should of been applied to the only to the 10 model numbers to cover the different models options past the starting 5 needed.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Stargate_wars

[Feral_80]

I might have posted in the wrong topic, but here are some thoughts after a test match: please excuse the cross-posting.

TLDR: it works, but not that well it seems.

 

 

[Lemondish]

On 6/16/2023 at 12:21 PM, Boyadventurer said:

Okay post points update Mike here. I guess the stuff about Kill Team composition doesn't really matter now cause KTs kinda suck right? 100 points for 5 vets, vs 165 for 5 vets in a Proteus. LESS weapon options for the Proteus vets for some reason, all they GAIN as a bonus is getting the SIA strat across 2 KTs instead of one unit.

 

They don't even get that, as DW Vets also carry the Kill Team keyword.

 

There's almost no point for the Proteus except if you're going 4 Terminators and a bike. That could have some play, particularly with a Captain attached for the free Stratagem.

[Garrtok]

What are you guys talking? You really have no clue. Proteus is by far the strongest. Three Cyclone Missile Launchers with Hellfire Rounds?! + the rest - you literally kill every infantery unit