Wh40k 10th Edition Adeptus Sororitas Index

[TrawlingCleaner]

Doin' it for themselves

Edited June 15, 2023 by TrawlingCleaner

[Emperor Ming]

Canoness with a blessed blade lost an attack, because they were terrifying in combat to begin with...

[Petitioner's City]

Celestians gone! 

 

And of course you still can't have the blessed blade and null rod ...

[MoshJason]

Did they squat Celestians (not Sacrestants) but the regular Veteran Celestians? Or did I just not see them?

[VanDutch]

Yeah, ‘normal’ Celestians are gone. Dominion Squads still have a data sheet though.

[sitnam]

6 minutes ago, VanDutch said:

Yeah, ‘normal’ Celestians are gone. Dominion Squads still have a data sheet though.

Minimum squad size of 10 though. Does the scouts rule affect transportation this edition?

Edited June 14, 2023 by sitnam

[Progenitor]

Outside of Maces on the Paragons and one-shot HK missiles no weapon above Str 10 either. Will need to see the points of course but looks like cracking armour is going to be tough. 

[Banjulhu]

And Retributors are capped at 5 models.

[Emperor Ming]

Only source of s12 is the hitting on 4s maces from the suits, what a huge disappointment 

 

Not impressed, at all, unit sizes being fixed, things like repentia 2 attacks

 

MM looking questionable anti tank

[Blurf]

So, the biggest consistent issue that I'm seeing is that all of the characters that have really good buffs, attach to Battle Sisters and Celestian Sacresants.

 

Both of which are hot, stinky doo doo.

 

We must be a horde army, right? Like, Sacresants must be 9ppm and Battle sisters must be 7? Because that's the only thing that makes any sense.

[MoshJason]

I played a very melee heavy army last edition, with a lot of Celestians, Celestian Sacresants and Zephyrim. I only took 3x5 battle sisters.

 

The loss of Bloody Rose tactics and the change in unit size alone is going to force me to really change how my army is built - at the very least, I need 15 more Battle Sisters.

[ZeroWolf]

46 minutes ago, Blurf said:

So, the biggest consistent issue that I'm seeing is that all of the characters that have really good buffs, attach to Battle Sisters and Celestian Sacresants.

 

Both of which are hot, stinky doo doo.

 

We must be a horde army, right? Like, Sacresants must be 9ppm and Battle sisters must be 7? Because that's the only thing that makes any sense.

Given that other sources have suggested that points are dropping across the board, you might be closer than you think.

 

1 hour ago, Emperor Ming said:

Only source of s12 is the hitting on 4s maces from the suits, what a huge disappointment 

 

Not impressed, at all, unit sizes being fixed, things like repentia 2 attacks

 

MM looking questionable anti tank

To be fair, infantry MM has been changed across all factions to make it better for tanks. Now if you want to be rid of a tank, take your own (or hope you have reliable anti-vehicle).

[The Unseen]

20 minutes ago, ZeroWolf said:

Given that other sources have suggested that points are dropping across the board, you might be closer than you think.

 

To be fair, infantry MM has been changed across all factions to make it better for tanks. Now if you want to be rid of a tank, take your own (or hope you have reliable anti-vehicle).

 

Of which sisters have... none

Their tanks cap out at Str10 AP-1 ranged fire.

Have fun killing anything tougher than a Rhino with that.

It's almost like making Melta non-effective at its 1 historic job and not doing anything to replace it for the factions that relied on it wasn't a great idea. 

[acrozatarim]

Yeah, Multimeltas do more damage to tanks than lascannons, gun for gun, both due to the higher AP mod and double the number of shots, and not including the Melta damage bonus. Obviously the range is an issue by comparison, but Multimeltas are actually pretty great for man-portable anti-tank weapons - it's just that all man-portable anti-tank is less potent than it used to be.

A squad of Retributors either standing still and firing at max range, or hoofing it into Melta range and firing without the Heavy bonus, will both reliably one-shot a Rhino, which is not nothing in this new paradigm. Damage is less impressive vs heavier tanks at T10+ and 2+ armour saves but even then they'll strip a decent number of wounds off just by themselves, and the use of Miracle Dice can obviously swing their damage up significantly.

Edited June 14, 2023 by acrozatarim

[Squark]

1 hour ago, acrozatarim said:

Yeah, Multimeltas do more damage to tanks than lascannons, gun for gun, both due to the higher AP mod and double the number of shots, and not including the Melta damage bonus. Obviously the range is an issue by comparison, but Multimeltas are actually pretty great for man-portable anti-tank weapons - it's just that all man-portable anti-tank is less potent than it used to be.

A squad of Retributors either standing still and firing at max range, or hoofing it into Melta range and firing without the Heavy bonus, will both reliably one-shot a Rhino, which is not nothing in this new paradigm. Damage is less impressive vs heavier tanks at T10+ and 2+ armour saves but even then they'll strip a decent number of wounds off just by themselves, and the use of Miracle Dice can obviously swing their damage up significantly.

 

 

Quick napkin math. Without miracle dice, a squad of retribuitors averages 1.6 successful wounds (more if you are lucky enough to have the tank come to you). That's 5.4 wounds on average, or 8.6 if you get the melta bonus. This drops to 4.5 and 7.1 if the vehicle has a 2+ save as heavy armor is disproportionately likely to. Three units of Retributors in rhinos that all get within 12" can reliably kill a monolith in a single round, but expecting thos rhinos to make it up the board is an insult to your opponent's intelligence. Still, Retributors have two miracle dice refunds, so you can spend relatively freely, and I haven't included the sister superior's pistol in the equation*.

 

*since wargear will be largely free if the final 9th edition space marine points are any indication, you might as well give her something nice. A plasma pistol might even give you a chance of getting +1 to hit if it kills her.

 

 

However, when you're counting on a 4+ followed by a 5+ and a random damage roll, that's a lot of variance. Add in casualties (5 T3 1 wound models with a 3+ are easy to wipe out), and you're going to have some very frustrating games against land raiders, monoliths, baneblades, etc.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Squark

[acrozatarim]

You may be missing their reroll of 1 on wound rolls there, at least (Edit: OR, on rereading what you actually wrote, you may have included it! Possible I've misunderstood).

 

Against a Rhino with just the Heavy bonus, the squad deals an average of 10.9 wounds; if they have Melta but not Heavy, they deal 12.8 wounds. Yes, variance can be an issue, but that goes both ways - spikes in the damage dice can bring down far tougher vehicles than the average, and damage rolls are specifically ones you can use Miracle Dice for, letting you potentially slam through a very high damage salvo.

For more numbers, vs a Land Raider the squad deals 6 wounds if just Heavy, 7.1 wounds if just Melta, or 9.5 wounds if both.

Edited June 14, 2023 by acrozatarim

[Squark]

I discounted heavy because I didn't expect it to come up often on a weapon that is trying to get within 12"/24" (Your comparative math would seem to vindicate that where possible, retribuitors should move if they can get within 12"), but I did include the re-roll.

 

It's definitely better to spend dice on wound rolls than damage rolls unless the target has an invulnerable save. A 5 or 6 on a wound adds 3.5/5.5* average damage, whereas the same die on a damage roll ony adds 1.5/2.5. Plus, if you wiff on wound rolls entirely, the die you saved can't be spent.

 

With a 5++, a 5 should still be spent on the wound while 6s can be saved for damage if you don't absolutely need the wound to go through, while against any tanks woth a 4++ (I belive engineseers hand them out to tamks they repair), the miracle die is best used for damage.

 

 

*2.92/4.58 vs. a 2+ armor save or a 6++

Edited June 14, 2023 by Squark

[acrozatarim]

Yeah, that's all fair!

Points depending, Dialogus looks like a genuinely good attachment for a Ret unit, being able to just go 'they get a 6' regardless of what you're actually rolling on your Miracle Dice.

[The Unseen]

So uhh, hate to be the bearer of bad news, but those MMs are now 18", not 24"

Melta range is 9"

And rerolling 1s to wound when you need 5s is pretty terrible

[Bonzi]

After thinking about the new dataslates this morning I do agree sisters biggest gap is dealing with heavy tanks and i don't think the old play styles are gonna hold anymore.  Our units like Retributors or Repentia are no longer solo acts that can trade up in fights ala 9th Ed.  It's clear the new style is much larger units banking on characters, miracle dice AND the detatchment bonuses to climb big hills.

 

Melta took a hit (but it was frankly the answer to everything except horde in 9th).  Now to tackle heavy vehicles it's going to take combos.  Retributors + the immolator bonus to dismounting units allowing wound rerolls or the addition of a Palantine for Lethal Hits letting the unit autowound on 6s, and also the use of miracle dice.  I think it's pretty clear GW wants dice to be a core mechanic rather than a nice little bonus.  Also our detatchment bonus + rules for the Castigator and Exorcist make them worthwhile considerations.  A single wound pushes those tanks to hitting on 2s.  Below half and they're back to hitting on 3s with +1 to wound.

 

I'm also hoping the general drop in AP and shooting output gives our units a little more longevity on the battlefield and possibly bigger dividends from our detatchment bonuses.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Bonzi

[acrozatarim]

12 minutes ago, The Unseen said:

So uhh, hate to be the bearer of bad news, but those MMs are now 18", not 24"

Melta range is 9"

And rerolling 1s to wound when you need 5s is pretty terrible

I'm aware re the range.

 

However, the needing 5s thing is often a distraction from the general situation - what matters is the final output, which is the numbers above, where Rets will flatten T9 vehicles like Rhinos and do meaningful damage against higher T vehicles as well.. A weapon that needs 2s to wound a vehicle but which has few shots, low damage, or poor AP is going to be rubbish anti-tank no matter how easily it wounds.

And where it's not a distraction is in abilities that allow Rets to overcome it. A Dialogus in the unit means you're getting a 6 on something. A Dialogus and the Triumph means you're getting a concerning number of 6s, because the Dialogus' ability isn't 1/turn or anything.

[Emperor Ming]

27 minutes ago, The Unseen said:

So uhh, hate to be the bearer of bad news, but those MMs are now 18", not 24"

Melta range is 9"

And rerolling 1s to wound when you need 5s is pretty terrible

[Blurf]

4 hours ago, MoshJason said:

I played a very melee heavy army last edition, with a lot of Celestians, Celestian Sacresants and Zephyrim. I only took 3x5 battle sisters.

 

The loss of Bloody Rose tactics and the change in unit size alone is going to force me to really change how my army is built - at the very least, I need 15 more Battle Sisters.

For what, though? You don't have to take battleline anymore. Taking even 1 unit of battle sisters is already kind of 'meh'. why on earth would you EVER take 3?

[WAR]

I think this is the most disappointed I have been as an Adepta Sororitas player since they were released in 1997, Even the Witch hunter, Chapter approved and black book rules were better. 

[Blurf]

57 minutes ago, Bonzi said:

After thinking about the new dataslates this morning I do agree sisters biggest gap is dealing with heavy tanks and i don't think the old play styles are gonna hold anymore.  Our units like Retributors or Repentia are no longer solo acts that can trade up in fights ala 9th Ed.  It's clear the new style is much larger units banking on characters, miracle dice AND the detatchment bonuses to climb big hills.

 

Melta took a hit (but it was frankly the answer to everything except horde in 9th).  Now to tackle heavy vehicles it's going to take combos.  Retributors + the immolator bonus to dismounting units allowing wound rerolls or the addition of a Palantine for Lethal Hits letting the unit autowound on 6s, and also the use of miracle dice.  I think it's pretty clear GW wants dice to be a core mechanic rather than a nice little bonus.  Also our detatchment bonus + rules for the Castigator and Exorcist make them worthwhile considerations.  A single wound pushes those tanks to hitting on 2s.  Below half and they're back to hitting on 3s with +1 to wound.

 

I'm also hoping the general drop in AP and shooting output gives our units a little more longevity on the battlefield and possibly bigger dividends from our detatchment bonuses.

Except we can't do that because the only units that characters can attach to are BATTLE SISTERS.

Palantine for Lethal Hits sounds good, but what are you shooting?  Bolters? Autoguns? Not multimeltas. Not even Heavy Bolters. She can only attach to 3 units.