Wh40k 10th Edition Adeptus Sororitas Index

[The Unseen]

43 minutes ago, acrozatarim said:

I'm aware re the range.

 

However, the needing 5s thing is often a distraction from the general situation - what matters is the final output, which is the numbers above, where Rets will flatten T9 vehicles like Rhinos and do meaningful damage against higher T vehicles as well.. A weapon that needs 2s to wound a vehicle but which has few shots, low damage, or poor AP is going to be rubbish anti-tank no matter how easily it wounds.

And where it's not a distraction is in abilities that allow Rets to overcome it. A Dialogus in the unit means you're getting a 6 on something. A Dialogus and the Triumph means you're getting a concerning number of 6s, because the Dialogus' ability isn't 1/turn or anything.

 

You and I must have very different opinions on the word *flatten*

Needing to get within 9" with T3 6" move bodies to damage, not kill, just damage them, is not a sustainable strategy

And yeah, a MM is slightly better than a lascannon, except the lascannon has 3 times the range and is much MUCH more likely  to procc the heavy bonus, so hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s, enough AP to hit invulns, and slightly better damage (outside of melta).

[acrozatarim]

You want regular battle sisters because they help generate lots more Miracle Dice, which the Triumph of St Katherine and a Dialogus turn into as many 6s as you want on squads like Retributors.

[Blurf]

14 minutes ago, WAR said:

I think this is the most disappointed I have been as an Adepta Sororitas player since they were released in 1997, Even the Witch hunter, Chapter approved and black book rules were better. 

The beta codex was worse, if that makes you feel better.

[Mana]

Celestians gone, dominions and battle sisters forced to 10 per unit, the other changes, etc. Honestly, what is GW thinking?

 

I started at the end of 8th, so I'm new to all this index thing. When the full codex releases, do they do radical changes to the datasheets in indexes?

[Blurf]

5 minutes ago, acrozatarim said:

You want regular battle sisters because they help generate lots more Miracle Dice, which the Triumph of St Katherine and a Dialogus turn into as many 6s as you want on squads like Retributors.

Only 1 dice per unit, only if they're on an objective. Realistically, BSS are only going to be on your backfield objective and MAYBE a strong-side objective. You're also paying anywhere from 90-110pts (depending on what a Battle Sister costs) for 5 miracle dice over the course of the game. There's HEAVY diminishing returns there.

Take 1 for sure (and Junith), take 2 MAYBE, absolutely never take 3.

[acrozatarim]

2 minutes ago, The Unseen said:

 

You and I must have very different opinions on the word *flatten*

Needing to get within 9" with T3 6" move bodies to damage, not kill, just damage them, is not a sustainable strategy

And yeah, a MM is slightly better than a lascannon, except the lascannon has 3 times the range and is much MUCH more likely  to procc the heavy bonus, so hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s, enough AP to hit invulns, and slightly better damage (outside of melta).

 

They reliably kill, not just damage, Rhinos and their equivalents at 18" range.

 

Yes, lascannon range matters - that's the weapon's main benefit. But if you're in range, statisically, lascannons are just outright worse except against targets that have a high enough Invuln.

 

The main gun on an Executioner, an undeniably focused tank-killing weapon, is doing roughly equivalent to or worse than the Ret squad's MMs into a Land Raider. So a Ret squad with MMs has anti-tank firepower in the ballpark of a heavy laser destroyer. Yes, shorter ranged, but let's not pretend that multi-meltas 'suck' into armour even at their base level, without any Miracle Dice shenanigans.

[Blurf]

2 minutes ago, Mana said:

Celestians gone, dominions and battle sisters forced to 10 per unit, the other changes, etc. Honestly, what is GW thinking?

 

I started at the end of 8th, so I'm new to all this index thing. When the full codex releases, do they do radical changes to the datasheets in indexes?

It's night and day. Our first 8th edition codex was almost unrecognizable from the Index.

[Squark]

15 minutes ago, Mana said:

Celestians gone, dominions and battle sisters forced to 10 per unit, the other changes, etc. Honestly, what is GW thinking?

 

I started at the end of 8th, so I'm new to all this index thing. When the full codex releases, do they do radical changes to the datasheets in indexes?

12 minutes ago, Blurf said:

It's night and day. Our first 8th edition codex was almost unrecognizable from the Index.

Depends on how soon the sisters dex hits. If it hits within the year, you should expect minimal changes based on what GW has indicated in the leadup to this edition (Vanilla Space Marines won't see any changes at all unless the unit gets a new kit alongside their codex).

[WAR]

18 minutes ago, Mana said:

Celestians gone, dominions and battle sisters forced to 10 per unit, the other changes, etc. Honestly, what is GW thinking?

 

I started at the end of 8th, so I'm new to all this index thing. When the full codex releases, do they do radical changes to the datasheets in indexes?

 

15 minutes ago, Blurf said:

It's night and day. Our first 8th edition codex was almost unrecognizable from the Index.

 

The 2nd edition codex had Rhino, Immolator, Battle Sisters squads (Superior and 4 bolters + 1 special (Flamer/ Melta) + 1 heavy (HB, MM, and HF)), Seraphim (Superior and 4 models 2 which could have hand flamers), Canonness and her body guard was seraphim minus jump packs and could add banner

[Squark]

1 hour ago, The Unseen said:

So uhh, hate to be the bearer of bad news, but those MMs are now 18", not 24"

Melta range is 9"

And rerolling 1s to wound when you need 5s is pretty terrible

*headesk*

 

I did not notice the range change. Ouch. Nerfing the range of a faction's only real AT gun on top of the toughness shift is a truly stupid decision.  This is probably a side effext of aharing the weapon with space marines and GW thinking about space marines first, but still.

 

Unfortunately, several squads of retribuitors in rhinos (Dialogus for guaranteed wounds regardless of miracle dice depending on budget) is still probably your best bet in the coming armored vehicle palooza.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Squark

[The Unseen]

1 hour ago, acrozatarim said:

 

They reliably kill, not just damage, Rhinos and their equivalents at 18" 

 

The main gun on an Executioner, an undeniably focused tank-killing weapon, is doing roughly equivalent to or worse than the Ret squad's MMs into a Land Raider. So a Ret squad with MMs has anti-tank firepower in the ballpark of a heavy laser destroyer. Yes, shorter ranged, but let's not pretend that multi-meltas 'suck' into armour even at their base level, without any Miracle Dice shenanigans.

 

The executioner is not, and never has been, an anti tank weapon. It's dedicated anti-elite infantry. It's status in 9th as "kill everything" gun was the outlier because GW made everything die to plasma profile. In 10th, an ACTUAL dedicated short ranged anti tank profile is something like the demolisher cannon.

24", 4+, Str14, -3 AP, D6 damage.

It alone averages 1.8 wounds (so 7ish damage) vs any vehicle that is T13 or less, aka if it isn't a Titan with no other rules, with an effective threat range of 34". So no hammer, rerolls, etc, I haven't looked at the guard index much)

 

And i wasn't talking about the Rhino about having to get within 9" to do appreciable damage, I was talking about stuff like Knights.

What are sisters going to do when the entire enemy army is T10+?

You arent always going to have miracle dice, miracle dice modification, specific leader within 6", AND get every model in range to shoot. 

 

Assuming you get a full squad of retributors within range of a Knight, they average a whopping 1.03 wounds through an unrotated ion shield. (Hitting on 4s, wounding on 5s rerolling 1s with 8 shots, against a 5++)

So if your smart and save your miracle dice for damage, you average 8 wounds vs a Knight. And then those rets just die, because they're within 9" of a knight and they are 5 T3 bodies.

 

Edit: For those curious, if you put the Rets in an Immolator for the wound rerolls, AND your superior kills herself with a plasma pistol for +1 to hit, you get 1.6 wounds through a 5++. So with miracle dice mods and such you can squeak out 2 damage 8 shots.

And then they still die.

Edited June 14, 2023 by The Unseen
Play nice

[WAR]

=][= Play nice, be respectful and do not insult other members. First Warning!=][=

[Guest]

Moving away from the no AT discussion for a sec, having a detachment rule that only activates when below Starting Strength (and gains an additional effect at <1/2 strength) feels pretty bad when (almost) everyone else has a rule that's always on. I guess the Space Wolves needed someone to commiserate with.

[Bonzi]

I'm trying not to wallow in the negativity of it all.  Honestly I've skipped through a lot of the other factions and everyone seems to feel they've been wronged and weakened which makes me feel less bad about some of Sisters obvious issues.

 

Some of this is looking at everything through the eyes of hyper lethal 9th Ed where the game had devolved to trading units to capture points and everything had to kill its target in one round before they instantly died in the next player turn.  Hopefully the reductions in AP and volume of attacks in every faction will make fights draw out a bit longer and be a touch more tactical.

 

Some of this is the inevitability of an index era.  This happened the last time they did index armies as well, except even worse.  Every army was horrifically bland, points were nonsensical for many units and obvious errors and omissions were everywhere.  I dreaded the coming of 10th edition for this reason.  9th Ed was a dumpster fire at the end and there was no way to right that ship without a clean slate and major overhauls which I wanted but knew that it meant another era of index grind which I HATED.  It's a catch-22.

 

I'm trying to focus on the positives.  I like that they busted the toughness cap on vehicles so weapon strengths could spread out more and make more room for differences.  I agree with a lot of the changes to melta...the multimeltas of last edition invalidated almost all armor and monsters.  I like battle shock and units getting special rules baked back in and stratagems getting pared waaaay back. 

 

I like the Sisters detatchment rules (at least in theory), if the lethality of the edition has dropped I really like the mechanics of an army that gets more potent as they take damage.  I especially like how this will play out on our tanks, effectively letting us ignore the damaged bracket and hit harder vs some of the tougher targets especially.  I like the new overwatch of this edition and there's a very large part of me that wants to drop down quad flamer Retributors and dare someone to come close enough.  I really want to throw Celestine and 10 Zypherim at something.  

 

Mostly I'm thankful that our book isn't one of the first three or four.  That's a very bad place to be if history repeats itself.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Bonzi

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Bonzi said:

 Hopefully the reductions in AP and volume of attacks in every faction will make fights draw out a bit longer and be a touch more tactical.

I'm hoping so too, but it does seem like the various crit effects (even without busted combos like the swiftly reworked Deathwatch strat) and the prevalence of rerolls (GW: rerolls will be much rarer in 10e, also GW: Oprah meme) might mean most factions have a 'delete unit' button.

[Blurf]

So, this is a reference sheet I made for every character with the 'leader' ability based on what units they can join, if they can double up when attaching to battle sisters units, and if they're at all useful.

You can see, it's super weird. Celestians can get basically every output leader...but their unit ability requires a canoness and is totally defensive. They're an identity crisis personified.

Dominions have 6 options for HQs but if you take anything other than a Palantine, you're being dumb.

Novitiates have THREE major output buff characters, Arcos have 2. Meanwhile Repentia have 0 and Retributors have like 1/2 of one.

SOMEHOW, Retributors SECOND best option for a leader is a unit that gives them MELEE ONLY DEVASTATING HITS.

EVERYTHING can attach to battle sisters but no amount of leaders will let than unit be good. Maybe If you bumped them up to 20 and let them take a Canoness, a Palantine, Junith, Celestine, Greyfax, Marneus Calgar, and Swarmlord. But no less than that.

 

Canoness' want to be on a big offensive unit, can only get with pillowfisted Celestians.

Palantine makes the Canoness more or less irrelevant and is superior in every regard.

Junith theoretically wants to join Sacresants but all you care about is the CP.

Missionary is so good it makes Arcos a decent choice. Not sure if it beats lethal hits+Scout for novitiates, but hot damn does he do a lot for his unit.

Triumph is all auras anyway so meh.

Aestred...I'm not even sure if Aestred knows where she is anymore. How do you give out Devastating wounds and STILL be mid :cuss:?

Imagifier...maybe if we were T6 and could move in bricks of 20. Has a celestian specific rule...can't double up on Celestians....?

Dialogus, thankfully is actually useful for Retributors. It was looking bleak for a minute there. Also turns EVERY miracle dice to a 6! Great!

Preacher, actually does what he's supposed to. Too bad he can't attach to repentia.

Hospitaller, heals characters, gives a 5+ FNP to her unit...can't double up on Celestians with a Canoness. Which is the only unit that it would make sense for.

Dogmata...guess we bought too many in 9th. Our bad.

[sal of manders]

1 hour ago, Blurf said:

Dogmata...guess we bought too many in 9th. Our bad.

 

Say what you will, as someone who plans on running a freeblade valiant with my sisters, i think forcing battleshock on the unit she's next to is going to be entertaining. 

[Emperor Ming]

I'm not even sure points cuts will help, there's a lot of  units that just need datasheet improvements

 

Combat weapons and ranged for sisters have just not kept up enough with the T hikes

 

and what's worse is sacrosancts went down in S

[Banjulhu]

Where tanks are concerned am I right i thinking they can never get the under half strength bonus +1 to wound bonus as units of 1 can only be full strength or dead and that the special exception in the detachment rule only lets them count as less than their starting strength if the vehicle is wounded?

[Vardus]

I'm fairly certain that less than half wounds is a qualifier for under half strength. I just can't recall where I have seen it.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Vardus
Spelling

[TrawlingCleaner]

3 minutes ago, Vardus said:

I'm fairly certain that less than half wounds is a qualifier for under half strength. I just can't recall where I have seen it.

 

In the core rules:

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

9 hours ago, Lucius_The_Temporary said:

Moving away from the no AT discussion for a sec, having a detachment rule that only activates when below Starting Strength (and gains an additional effect at <1/2 strength) feels pretty bad when (almost) everyone else has a rule that's always on. I guess the Space Wolves needed someone to commiserate with.

 

It is better than what our martyred lady had before but it does feel like an ability that is going to look a lot better than it is. It's also going to better against new players which stinks.

 

2 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

I'm not even sure points cuts will help, there's a lot of  units that just need datasheet improvements

 

Combat weapons and ranged for sisters have just not kept up enough with the T hikes

 

and what's worse is sacrosancts went down in S

 

It's really going to depend on how much GW charges for the T increases. If vehicles stay relatively close to their current points it'll be rough, but if they go up in points proportionally most vehicles will stay on the shelf.

[Banjulhu]

Some highlights.

 

10 Battle sisters: 110pts

10 Dominions: 130pts

5 Retributors: 130pts

Did you know that 5 Devastator Marines comes in at 120pts?

[Blurf]

6 hours ago, Banjulhu said:

Some highlights.

 

10 Battle sisters: 110pts

10 Dominions: 130pts

5 Retributors: 130pts

Did you know that 5 Devastator Marines comes in at 120pts?

Someone at GW is HIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH. Assuming 120pts for Devs is fair, BSS should be 80, Dominions should be 90, and Rets should be 100.

[MoshJason]

Yeah, I feel like they didn't factor in the fact that 3+ saves don't get cover any more? 

 

Karskin are 1 pt more than Battlesisters - and they are way better.

 

I'm really not sure how GW decided to do points, but sisters needed a major pts decrease when all our characters lost their auras - and we didn't get that. It's going to be rough out there.