Guard Index

[TCC]

  On 7/1/2023 at 3:33 AM, Malakithe said:

So whats the new list plan once indirect gets nerfed again? Since all main tanks are trash spam as much infantry and HWTs as possible?

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hellhounds and devil dogs? Or play any army looking at the terrain maps.

[Emperor Ming]

All infantry is what I'm thinking

[Emperor Ming]

  On 7/1/2023 at 12:34 AM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Jesus. Points changes already? I haven’t even gotten to play a game yet.

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It would be fantastic if they could just get it right the first time

 

Pts changes July, sept, Jan, quarterly going forward, rules reviews every 6 months

[Minsc]

I don't mind regular (say, every 3 months) pointchanges honestly, especially since the pts-document is free and easy to download, and no longer invalidates an index/codex (because the pts aren't listed there to begin with). Especially if Battlescribe or the 40k-app updates quickly. 

It's way better than having stuff being under/overpriced for years... 

Edited July 1, 2023 by Minsc

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

  On 7/1/2023 at 7:25 AM, sairence said:

Main tanks aren't trash, they're just expensive. But they're durable enough that bringing some can still be a solid force multiplier.

 

As for indirect...wait and see what they do with it. 

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gotta love the knee jerk reactions that lead directly to people crying about how the whole army is suddenly ruined.

[jarms48]

  On 7/1/2023 at 8:57 AM, Emperor Ming said:

All infantry is what I'm thinking

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I imagine this is exactly what tournament play would be like after indirect is nerfed. Something like:

- 3 DKOK blobs with Marshall

- 3 DKOK blobs with platoon command squads

- 3 Cadian blobs with cadian command squads

- Lord Solar

- 3 units of scout sentinels

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by jarms48

[Emperor Ming]

I'm not 100% sure on all blobs, it could be a trap

 

With two squads, battle shocking 20 guys or what's left of them, could loose you an obj

 

Deffo some blobs, 

 

I'm not a fan of scout sentinels at 50pts I didn't like them at 40pts so

 

Maybe rr's as a distraction. 

[Minsc]

  On 7/1/2023 at 11:54 PM, Emperor Ming said:

I'm not a fan of scout sentinels at 50pts I didn't like them at 40pts so

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- They hand out re-roll 1's for potentially the entire army
- They negate the to-hit penalty for Indirect Fire (so now Basilisks, Manticores, Bombards etc. can hit on 3+ when shooting Indirect.)
- They can come back for 2 CP and enter reserves (and can potentially snatch a backfield objective when doing so, as happened in my game today).
- They got Scout and are pretty fast in an otherwise mostly slow army, so good for snatching objectives.

Not liking them is fine, but Scout Sentinels are an S-tier unit in utility alone and easily worth 50 pts. 

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Minsc

[Trickstick]

  On 7/1/2023 at 11:54 PM, Emperor Ming said:

With two squads, battle shocking 20 guys or what's left of them, could loose you an obj

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Marshals have a one use ignore battleshock, which would help keep an objective. Also, the command squads with a flag would keep 1oc per model in those blobs.

 

For a list though, I think it lacks Creed. I definitely see the Leontus/Creed combo being in all cometitive Guard lists, they just come with so much for their point cost. 1cp a battleround, redeploy, vehicle orders, 0cp strategems. They are so cheap for getting all of that.

[sairence]

I'm not sure on all infantry. I think it'll lack punch, and going for multiple big blobs will be a trap that gets eviscerated by Blast-weapons. 

 

If indirect becomes non-viable, which I doubt as of yet as I'm not expecting them to drop massive changes already (the approach the last couple of balance updates has been, small, incremental changes), then looking at our tanks for damage is still going to be worthwhile. Yes, Russes are expensive but they're also pretty damn tough. Hellhounds and Sentinels provide a lot of utility even without indirect to buff, and some decent damage potential in their own right. 

Edited July 2, 2023 by sairence

[Tokugawa]

Artillery won't be unplayable unless the nerf is as huge as +50% pts. 

 

In late 9th, if shoot over a piece of dense cover, an SPG would possibly hit on 6+(basic 4+BS, -1 hit, -1 BS) and can hardly reach 4+ when indirect. 

 

In 10th, if fully buffed it could hit on 2+ at best (basic 4+BS, ignore indirect penalty, +1 hit from [Heavy], +1 BS). 

 

That is up to 400% difference. If GW give you 300% instead of 400%, it is still much more playable than in 9th.

[Minsc]

  On 7/2/2023 at 1:38 PM, Tokugawa said:

Artillery won't be unplayable unless the nerf is as huge as +50% pts. 

 

In late 9th, if shoot over a piece of dense cover, an SPG would possibly hit on 6+(basic 4+BS, -1 hit, -1 BS) and can hardly reach 4+ when indirect. 

 

In 10th, if fully buffed it could hit on 2+ at best (basic 4+BS, ignore indirect penalty, +1 hit from [Heavy], +1 BS). 

 

That is up to 400% difference. If GW give you 300% instead of 400%, it is still much more playable than in 9th.

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I agree fully. 

 

Our vehicle-mounted weapons can quite easily hit on 2+ when shooting indirect and our non-vehicle-mounted weapons can quite easily hit on 3+ when shooting indirect. 

Don't forget re-rolling 1's to hit if there's a Scout Sentinel nearby. 

We are far and aways from late 9th when our artillery was basically garbage because it was more often than not hitting on 5+.

Does anyone really think that a Manticore firing indirect and hitting on 2+ at 105 pts and a Basilisk doing the same at 110 pts is "fine"? Let's top it of with Lethal Hits. 
These two pieces of artillery could easily go up ~25% in points and still be worth fielding. 
 

[sairence]

They definitely could, but my personal preference would be to keep them cheap, but make them a bit less effective, so they more reasonably fit into a battlefield support role.

 

Also, always worth keeping in mind that Guard is not the only army with access to lots of very effective indirect guns. Whatever change it'll be at this stage, it'll be one targetting the indirect rule and not so much individual datasheets.

[Trickstick]

  On 7/2/2023 at 3:31 PM, sairence said:

Whatever change it'll be at this stage, it'll be one targetting the indirect rule and not so much individual datasheets.

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The wording from the Metawatch video made it seem like it would be a points based balance solution for indirect, so hopefully Guard will not pay too much for the faults of Desolation marines and D-cannons.

[Emperor Ming]

Did we all c guard were near the bottom on current win rates, not surprising even if it is early days

[Tokugawa]

If comparably playable, 

 

higher cost and bigger profile = less $$$ for acquiring the models.

 

lower cost and weaker profile = more $$$ to have an army.

 

If full equipped Russ is 120pts and Sentinel 30pts, I can't play IG at all, since I don't own that many models to make a 2000pts list.

[jarms48]

  On 7/1/2023 at 11:54 PM, Emperor Ming said:

I'm not 100% sure on all blobs, it could be a trap

 

With two squads, battle shocking 20 guys or what's left of them, could loose you an obj

 

Deffo some blobs, 

 

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The idea isn't to do damage. Just to hold objectives. Standard banner still gives 1 OC even if battleshocked. Battleshocked drops the units OC to 0, but as the banner is a modifier they still have 1 after. 

[Tokugawa]

https://40kstats.goonhammer.com/data/lists/abaf7511c3e9ae2d0ce0c925e6b2d9b9.json

 

IG list with 3*basilisk, 3*manticore and 0*tank won a GT.

 

IG artillery can't pretend to be innocent. They can't escape the incoming indirect nerf.

[jarms48]

Guard artillery definitely need a nerf, but not a massive one. Basilisk and Manticores could go up to around 120-125 and they’d be fine. Medusa and Earthshaker Batteries could go up to about 80-85 and they’d be fine. Rapier could go to 40 per model and be fine. 
 

Not oppressive just okay.

[Tokugawa]

  On 7/3/2023 at 11:11 AM, jarms48 said:

Guard artillery definitely need a nerf, but not a massive one. Basilisk and Manticores could go up to around 120-125 and they’d be fine. Medusa and Earthshaker Batteries could go up to about 80-85 and they’d be fine. Rapier could go to 40 per model and be fine. 
 

Not oppressive just okay.

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And IG tanks need reduced cost. 200+ pts for a Leman hull is just too high.

[Emperor Ming]

  On 7/3/2023 at 11:18 AM, Tokugawa said:

And IG tanks need reduced cost. 200+ pts for a Leman hull is just too high.

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Well that and they need to decouple sponsons from the points aswell

 

Points will hopefully go back to how they were eventually, might take a while, cos this new system is just power levels in disguise

[sairence]

  On 7/3/2023 at 11:11 AM, jarms48 said:

Guard artillery definitely need a nerf, but not a massive one. Basilisk and Manticores could go up to around 120-125 and they’d be fine. Medusa and Earthshaker Batteries could go up to about 80-85 and they’d be fine. Rapier could go to 40 per model and be fine. 
 

Not oppressive just okay

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I don't actually see why the platforms should be substantially cheaper than the tracked versions. They have the same firepower and debuffs, and the mobility and durability difference is irrelevant in 90% of any game. They justify being a little cheaper for it, but the main stat is the firepower and on that front there's zero difference.

 

It just feeds into that tired and dated narrative of Forgeworld OP, which just isn't the case for the vast majority of kits.

[Tokugawa]

  On 7/3/2023 at 11:37 AM, Emperor Ming said:

Well that and they need to decouple sponsons from the points aswell

 

Points will hopefully go back to how they were eventually, might take a while, cos this new system is just power levels in disguise

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Agree, multi-melta is not the powerhouse in 9th anymore, and its prefered range is only 9 inches now. Pre-pay 30+ pts for "free" sponsons is disasterous.

[Trickstick]

  On 7/3/2023 at 9:04 AM, Tokugawa said:

https://40kstats.goonhammer.com/data/lists/abaf7511c3e9ae2d0ce0c925e6b2d9b9.json

 

IG list with 3*basilisk, 3*manticore and 0*tank won a GT.

 

IG artillery can't pretend to be innocent. They can't escape the incoming indirect nerf.

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Is this the Geelong Open? They ruled that Creed could use tactical genius on the reinforcement stratagem, so they could get a second 0cp usage out of it in a phase. (Edit: This is a bit of a crazy ruling in my opinion, and more of a house rule than a clarification.)

 

The list also had quite a few sentinels in it I think. Not a bad list, but that ruling really makes it a bit of an outlier for any sort of meta analysis.

Edited July 3, 2023 by Trickstick

[Trickstick]

  On 7/3/2023 at 12:02 PM, sairence said:

 

I don't actually see why the platforms should be substantially cheaper than the tracked versions.

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They have 1 less BS.