Guard Index

[Sergeant Bastone]

4 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I know it’s hard to quantify but if your GK opponent had to work hard to kill them and was outraged you could bring them back, then I’m sure doing so had a much larger effect than you might be giving them credit for since i doubt he left them alone.

Yeah, fair.  It took 2 of his 3 squads piling into them to kill them the first time.  Then they walked back onto the board, shot twice, then charged and seized his home objective.  They did useful stuff but didn't kill anything all game.  Grey Knights are a bad matchup as lascannons bounce off the 4++ and just overkill if a shot gets through.  And the chainsaws disappointed me by doing zero wounds in 2 rounds.  Nork (who i also had on the board) is the only one in the army that can hurt in melee. 

[sairence]

In fairness, from everything I've seen, Grey Knights have a pretty terrible time into anything kinda durable, due to an incredible lack of actual anti tank weapons. And Armoured Sentinels still have a 2+ save on 21 wounds for a whole unit. That's not nothing.

 

Besides, a Sentinels usefulness has rarely been in their damage output, but rather in their mobility and general nuisance-factor. Sounds like yours managed exactly that.

[jarms48]

Sentinels are just a fantastic unit. Scouts are definitely better than Armoured, but Armoured are still S tier. 

[Minsc]

I'm not sold on Armoured Sentinels. Their resilience (including ablity to come back) is amazing for the cost, but their damage-output is pretty meh. 

Scout Sentinels however are absolutely S-tier. Never leave the barracks without at least one. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

6 hours ago, Minsc said:

I'm not sold on Armoured Sentinels. Their resilience (including ablity to come back) is amazing for the cost, but their damage-output is pretty meh. 

Scout Sentinels however are absolutely S-tier. Never leave the barracks without at least one. 

Well as stated above, no one takes sentinels of any sort for their damage output.

 

I think the best damage output for them this edition will be with the autocannon now.

[march10k]

I agree with everyone on LRBTs being ridiculously overcosted.  The high T makes them really hard to kill, but the nerfs to most of the turrets just makes them no longer worth it.  The vanquisher isn't quite back to being a long ranged meltagun, but it's close!  Battle cannon is trash.  Honestly, the eradicator and the punisher are the only ones I'd consider running, but at current points, only in a casual game.

 

I've had one game, thus far. A few observations:

 

1.  Cadians in Chimeras.  With two plasma guns on the firing step, the dakka is real, and the chimmies are just survivable enough to get you to a midfield objective and screen some shooting or charging for a turn or two before going down.  I had two of them survive the game on 1-2 wounds.  Worth the points just to delay your troops taking fire for a turn or two, but the dakka is a very nice bonus.

 

2.  Dorn.  Opressor and dakka.  The oppressor is okay-ish antitank (two turns to take down a battlewagon), and if you park it in a spot that overwatches a midfield objective, the 29 non-oppressor shots are just filthy against most core infantry.  Defininitely a good buy.  Funny thing is, it's 15 points cheaper than the way I ran it in 9th (knight of piety).  But you do have to take an enginseer to hide behind it and turn a wrench, so it does actually cost slightly more.

 

3.  Kasrkin are godlike.  I ran them with a castellan and having two orders always on was ridiculous.  FRFSRF and take aim on four plasma guns?  And then, when I needed them to take the deep objective away from some grots later in the game, just charged them into a squad of slugga boys and walk them onto the far board edge at full strength.  Going forward, I'm running two squads.  One with Creed to keep those two orders plus move move move always on.  Rarely going to venture in close to get 12 plasma shots, though, 8 at range is plenty and more survivable.  The other one will be castellan+melta.  They don't need FRFSRF, but a 9" move with melta that hits on 2+ is bonkers.

 

It's been discussed a little, but Creed popping the reinforcements stratagem for free is great, but doesn't always mean you can do it twice.  The issue is the 12" limit on her ability, combined with her being able to do it for free after it's already been done for CP, but not vice versa.  If the first unit to die is within that range, you have a dilema.  Do it for free, and you're done, you don't get to pay the CP to do it again later in the turn.  Pay the CP, and maybe you don't lose another unit within 12".  I'd say always use her ability unless there's an obvious additional pending demise within range, like a heavy weapons squad stuck in with bloodletters 

 

I really appreciate the discussion of the two types of sentinels.  I was leaning towards armored for the rerolls when shooting at light vehicles, but I see now why scout is better, even though I'm running no indirect.  

 

I'm also glad to hear my assessment that my hellhounds need to come off the shelf is sound.  Besides the flamey goodness and cover stripping, I love the T10, it's a legit light tank!

 

/edit/  Oh, yeah... one more thing: 2CP command rerolls is FILTHY!!!

 

/edit again/  I'm taking a vanquisher.  With support from the scout sentinels and the heavy keyword on the cannon, it actually works.

Edited July 26, 2023 by march10k

[jarms48]

You can't take that many of the same special weapon. 

[Emperor Ming]

No way id take kasarkin, atm, they got a points hike, lost a point of ap on s3 guns and the teleport relic is gone from 9th to 10th

 

Not sure how I would justify them now

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

7 hours ago, march10k said:

I agree with everyone on LRBTs being ridiculously overcosted.  The high T makes them really hard to kill, but the nerfs to most of the turrets just makes them no longer worth it.  The vanquisher isn't quite back to being a long ranged meltagun, but it's close!  Battle cannon is trash.  Honestly, the eradicator and the punisher are the only ones I'd consider running, but at current points, only in a casual game.

 

I've had one game, thus far. A few observations:

 

1.  Cadians in Chimeras.  With two plasma guns on the firing step, the dakka is real, and the chimmies are just survivable enough to get you to a midfield objective and screen some shooting or charging for a turn or two before going down.  I had two of them survive the game on 1-2 wounds.  Worth the points just to delay your troops taking fire for a turn or two, but the dakka is a very nice bonus.

 

2.  Dorn.  Opressor and dakka.  The oppressor is okay-ish antitank (two turns to take down a battlewagon), and if you park it in a spot that overwatches a midfield objective, the 29 non-oppressor shots are just filthy against most core infantry.  Defininitely a good buy.  Funny thing is, it's 15 points cheaper than the way I ran it in 9th (knight of piety).  But you do have to take an enginseer to hide behind it and turn a wrench, so it does actually cost slightly more.

 

3.  Kasrkin are godlike.  I ran them with a castellan and having two orders always on was ridiculous.  FRFSRF and take aim on four plasma guns?  And then, when I needed them to take the deep objective away from some grots later in the game, just charged them into a squad of slugga boys and walk them onto the far board edge at full strength.  Going forward, I'm running two squads.  One with Creed to keep those two orders plus move move move always on.  Rarely going to venture in close to get 12 plasma shots, though, 8 at range is plenty and more survivable.  The other one will be castellan+melta.  They don't need FRFSRF, but a 9" move with melta that hits on 2+ is bonkers.

 

It's been discussed a little, but Creed popping the reinforcements stratagem for free is great, but doesn't always mean you can do it twice.  The issue is the 12" limit on her ability, combined with her being able to do it for free after it's already been done for CP, but not vice versa.  If the first unit to die is within that range, you have a dilema.  Do it for free, and you're done, you don't get to pay the CP to do it again later in the turn.  Pay the CP, and maybe you don't lose another unit within 12".  I'd say always use her ability unless there's an obvious additional pending demise within range, like a heavy weapons squad stuck in with bloodletters 

 

I really appreciate the discussion of the two types of sentinels.  I was leaning towards armored for the rerolls when shooting at light vehicles, but I see now why scout is better, even though I'm running no indirect.  

 

I'm also glad to hear my assessment that my hellhounds need to come off the shelf is sound.  Besides the flamey goodness and cover stripping, I love the T10, it's a legit light tank!

 

/edit/  Oh, yeah... one more thing: 2CP command rerolls is FILTHY!!!

 

/edit again/  I'm taking a vanquisher.  With support from the scout sentinels and the heavy keyword on the cannon, it actually works.

Idk about the punisher being one of the best.

 

id say the exterminator out classes it handily

[Sergeant Bastone]

RIP the Taurox Prime's S8 frags.  Figured that was a misprint.  Krieg can finally take the medipack which i guess means they're now just our best infantry.  They get 3 special weapons AND grim demeanor AND return D3 models AND can be joined by undercosted Krieg officers.

 

WRT Leman Russes, i've been running a single demolisher (1000pt games) and it's been pretty good.  It's so tough and in theory all of the guns means it's putting out a lot of firepower (i whiff on all 4 multimelta shots most of the time).  I need the points so I'm going to try out an eradicator tomorrow. I think it should do almost as well vs infantry.  Having d3+6 shots means it should never suck too badly against T6 and below.

 

Has it been established that you can use Creed for the free Reinforcements strat?  That doesn't seem right to me. 

[librisrouge]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Idk about the punisher being one of the best.

 

id say the exterminator out classes it handily

I'd increasingly of the opinion that the exterminator (my favorite variant) is actually the best variant this edition. Which I love.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

21 minutes ago, librisrouge said:

I'd increasingly of the opinion that the exterminator (my favorite variant) is actually the best variant this edition. Which I love.

My favorite variant as well. Been using it since I built it at the end of 8th.

it’s so nice to see it be at least competitive lol.

[sairence]

17 hours ago, Sergeant Bastone said:

Has it been established that you can use Creed for the free Reinforcements strat?  That doesn't seem right to me. 

 

You can't, because the strat is used after a unit has just been destroyed. At that stage the unit can no longer be within 12" of Creed. 

 

The argument only exists because Sentinels are Regiment, and stay on the board after being destroyed, because you still roll for deadly demise. So some people argue that you can use the strat in combination with Creed in that moment.

 

RAW it's ambiguous, because GW hasn't specificed the sequencing. So unless it was in the recent updates best check with your TO. 

 

Personally, I find that interpretation a bit of a stretch, so I'm not using it that way 

[jarms48]

Personally I've been playing reinforcements as no free use from Creed until that's FAQ'd. I do appreciate the fact they finally fixed the DKOK medi-pack. 

[march10k]

On 7/26/2023 at 5:28 PM, jarms48 said:

You can't take that many of the same special weapon. 

I see that now.  That is the finest fine print I've ever seen!

On 7/26/2023 at 7:26 PM, Emperor Ming said:

No way id take kasarkin, atm, they got a points hike, lost a point of ap on s3 guns and the teleport relic is gone from 9th to 10th

 

Not sure how I would justify them now

 

I'm dropping them for a different reason.  I just realized that they don't have the "regiment" keyword, so no reinforcements!  That combined with being limited to two of the same special weapon just really guts their usefulness to me.  Too bad, I really loved attaching a castellan to have two orders "always on."

 

On 7/26/2023 at 11:57 PM, librisrouge said:

I'd increasingly of the opinion that the exterminator (my favorite variant) is actually the best variant this edition. Which I love.

This edition, you're right, the exterminator is the best variant.  Too bad... I have a dozen or so russes, and none of them are exterminators!  But...since my son plays green tide, the punisher is best...for me.  Alongside the dorn that has 29 shots besides the oppressor cannon, of course!

On 7/27/2023 at 5:00 PM, sairence said:

 

You can't, because the strat is used after a unit has just been destroyed. At that stage the unit can no longer be within 12" of Creed. 

 

That's about as logical as arguing that because they've been destroyed, they no longer have the regiment keyword and are therefore ineligible targets for the stratagem.  I think allowing Creed to use it is balanced by the fact that she's forced to be in the thick of the fight to realistically use it.  Personally, I'll probably keep her safely back, issuing "take aim" to some fire support, like my pair of autocannon squads, or, when I have them, heavy lascannon batteries.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

18 minutes ago, march10k said:

I see that now.  That is the finest fine print I've ever seen!

I'm dropping them for a different reason.  I just realized that they don't have the "regiment" keyword, so no reinforcements!  That combined with being limited to two of the same special weapon just really guts their usefulness to me.  Too bad, I really loved attaching a castellan to have two orders "always on."

 

This edition, you're right, the exterminator is the best variant.  Too bad... I have a dozen or so russes, and none of them are exterminators!  But...since my son plays green tide, the punisher is best...for me.  Alongside the dorn that has 29 shots besides the oppressor cannon, of course!

That's about as logical as arguing that because they've been destroyed, they no longer have the regiment keyword and are therefore ineligible targets for the stratagem.  I think allowing Creed to use it is balanced by the fact that she's forced to be in the thick of the fight to realistically use it.  Personally, I'll probably keep her safely back, issuing "take aim" to some fire support, like my pair of autocannon squads, or, when I have them, heavy lascannon batteries.

What unit are you talking about not having regiment?

[Colman]

19 minutes ago, march10k said:

On 7/27/2023 at 12:26 AM, Emperor Ming said:

 

I'm dropping them for a different reason.  I just realized that they don't have the "regiment" keyword, so no reinforcements

Didn’t they get that in latest update?

[sairence]

Yes, Kasrkin got the Regiment keyword added in one of the first updates.

 

As for Reinforcements and Creed...there's one very specific condition that needs to be satisfied for her ability to trigger on any strat: the unit has to be within 12" of her. While the unit is still within that range, it's still alive, therefore ineligible to have Reinforcement used. And once they fulfill the requirements of the strat, aka just been destroyed, they no longer have models in range of anything on the board. Their keywords are an entirely different topic that has nothing to do with any range-requirements to specific models, and are fixed on the datacards.

You may not like it, but I don't really see any point in arguing about something so straightforward. If you play with your friends and want to houserule it differently, you're absolutely free to do so.

[Emperor Ming]

Also attaching a castellan would loose scout on the kasarkin

[Trickstick]

19 hours ago, sairence said:

Yes, Kasrkin got the Regiment keyword added in one of the first updates.

 

As for Reinforcements and Creed...there's one very specific condition that needs to be satisfied for her ability to trigger on any strat: the unit has to be within 12" of her. While the unit is still within that range, it's still alive, therefore ineligible to have Reinforcement used. And once they fulfill the requirements of the strat, aka just been destroyed, they no longer have models in range of anything on the board. Their keywords are an entirely different topic that has nothing to do with any range-requirements to specific models, and are fixed on the datacards.

You may not like it, but I don't really see any point in arguing about something so straightforward. If you play with your friends and want to houserule it differently, you're absolutely free to do so.

 

The problem is that you can make a logical argument both for and against creed reinforcements. It can be argued that there is a step between destroyed and removed, where you can still measure range to models on the table. Vehicles use this during deadly demise, for example. Basically, there is enough logic on both sides to argue it around and around forever. So you really do just need to make a ruling on how you feel it should be played, and hope that GW clarifies it in a future FAQ.

[march10k]

 

21 hours ago, Colman said:

Didn’t they get that in latest update?

Ah, I do need to keep up with those.  They're popping earlier and more often than I'm used to.  In that case, I like the tactic of pushing them upfield to force the enemy to deal with them, then having them walk on the opposite board edge and blow the guards off of a weakly defended deep objective.

20 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

Also attaching a castellan would loose scout on the kasarkin

 

This is true.  Offset by being able to have two orders active?  If one of them is move move move on turn one, that's half of the scout move back right there!

 

1 hour ago, Trickstick said:

 

The problem is that you can make a logical argument both for and against creed reinforcements. It can be argued that there is a step between destroyed and removed, where you can still measure range to models on the table. Vehicles use this during deadly demise, for example. Basically, there is enough logic on both sides to argue it around and around forever. So you really do just need to make a ruling on how you feel it should be played, and hope that GW clarifies it in a future FAQ.

Agreed.  I'm betting they're constantly flabbergasted that half of us don't understand the rule the way that seems perfectly clear to them!

[Sergeant Bastone]

On 6/16/2023 at 3:15 PM, SvenIronhand said:

I run a fairly Infantry-heavy list (at last count, 4 squads' worth including Kasrkin in a 1000 pts list), so I'm a bit worried about my AT with plasma and melta. My usual opponent is a mirror match with Guard, and I'm wounding LRBTs on 4s with anything but a Demolisher cannon. God forbid he buys a Rogal Dorn.

 

Aside from that, I think that we're in a good place rn. 

I just played a mirror match at 1000 points.  Opponent had 3 Russes, 2 chimeras, and 20 infantry.

 

Thoughts:

-Running my armoured sentinels as a unit of 3 is bad.  Order efficiency, and it's amazing to see the look on your opponent's face when you rez them but that's only happened once for me.  They are really hard to kill, which is good, but having them challenge for 3 different objectives would be better.  I think bringing one back would often still be worth 2CP and bringing two back certainly will.

-Regular Infantry cannot fight tough vehicles (i had 4 squads, 3 ogryns, plus a PCS).  He deleted my infantry squads every time he shot at one.  I had one plucky squad seize an objective from the Russ holding it.  The melta gun hits on 4s and wounds on 5s.  That's not very good.  Throwing grenades is much better.  THROW AS MANY GRENADES AS YOU CAN!

-He had 3 LRBTs vs my demolisher.  The demolisher is awesome.  I forgot to use smoke vs his Hunter-Killers and battlecannon shots.  DON'T FORGET TO USE SMOKE!  I'm not sure if i think the LRBT is good or not.  With the rerolls on plasma cannons and even heavy stubbers they easily deleted my guardsmen objective holders.  The Battlecannon bounced off my sentinels and demolisher all game.  If you're wondering what the battlecannon is good at killing the answer is Ogryns :-(

-Tactic i should have tried: charging his tanks with my demolisher.  Tank shock could have put mortals on his Russ and then being locked in combat would have been so good for me.  I could have shot at him at full BS (multimelta sponsons).  He would not have been able to shoot my demolisher with his battlecannon or plasma sponsons.  And if he fell back If you're playing a demolisher get stuck in.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Sergeant Bastone

[zero888]

Has anyone used a Banesword yet? The armor obliteration rule is absolutely hilarious to me and I think that would be a focal point of playing an army with one. Who cares if you win just play to see how many boombas you can make

[march10k]

On 7/30/2023 at 8:01 AM, Sergeant Bastone said:

Thoughts:

-Running my armoured sentinels as a unit of 3 is bad.  Order efficiency, and it's amazing to see the look on your opponent's face when you rez them but that's only happened once for me.  They are really hard to kill, which is good, but having them challenge for 3 different objectives would be better.  I think bringing one back would often still be worth 2CP and bringing two back certainly will.

-Regular Infantry cannot fight tough vehicles (i had 4 squads, 3 ogryns, plus a PCS).  He deleted my infantry squads every time he shot at one.  I had one plucky squad seize an objective from the Russ holding it.  The melta gun hits on 4s and wounds on 5s.  That's not very good.  Throwing grenades is much better.  THROW AS MANY GRENADES AS YOU CAN!

 

In my last match, my opponent was so severely freaked out by my brace of scout sentinels staring intently at his battlewagon that he made sure to kill them every turn.  I in turn ensured that I saved my CP to rez them every turn.  That pretty much soaked up all of his AT all game long, and the sentinels walked onto an objective from strategic reserves on the last turn anyway.

 

I agree about the meltas.  I had mine hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, and they whiffed hard.  Wounding on 5s just makes them unplayable.  Autocannons, on the other hand, are just amazing, melting away transports, bikes, and characters with the utmost of aplomb, and from distance.

 

/edit/ That reminds me.  It's fantastic that they did index rules for a bunch of FW stuff, like my griffons and my avenger.  And the Storm Chimera is AWESOME, I wish I had those turrets.  What I do have is the twin heavy bolter turrets, which would be a decent second to the autocannon. But no rules... that variant slipped through the cracks!  I'm not too upset, though.  My primary opponent plays orks, and greenskins are the single solitary enemy that multilasers are "not futile" against.  

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by march10k