Etiquette of 3d printed/3rd party models

[Santaclauswitz]

What are players opinions odd playing against someone using 3d printed models and 3rd party models?

 

I've mostly GW stuff at the moment but my theme for guard 10th is to try to represent all the classic regiments in different. However there are short falls in my current collection. For example I've 80 steel legion but only 1 converted vox guy. If I can use a few alternatives that fit in to specific roles and looked the part would you play against that army?

 

I've been hankering after a 3d printer for a while, partly for the reasons above but also because there are some gorgeous models out there. In particular there's some amazing looking rapiers. I do own an old metal one but it doesn't look good and the forge world ones are a little plain. Also maybe a carriage or 2. Certainly not 9 rapiers and 6 carriages!

 

I can see me using less than 10% of these in my force. Would you pay against that?

[SteveAntilles]

I personally dislike them, but wouldn't refuse to play against them or anything. 

[Inso]

I'd have no bother with it... I run an army of space dwarfs as Astra Militarum, I have sculpted/cast my own troops and as far as I'm concerned (unless it is a GW sponsored event which would prevent you using non GW products), as long as you can see what you are playing against (WYSIWYG) and understand what the equipment is there should be no issues.

[Harrowmaster]

I have loads of Anvil models so I'm biased but I have no issue.. It's not up to me to say what minis you use (as long as they accurately represent your units). 

[Castlerook]

As someone who has gotten into 3d printer, I have a mixed opinion, leaning heavily to I don't have a problem with it.

 

I wouldn't mind someone bringing an army that was largely 3d printer if I had invited them to my home or was playing them at a neutral location. After all, I know how difficult it can be to get good prints and if you've spent the time and effort to do so and then paint them up, I'm more than happy to play.

 

If its at an official location, that's where the problem starts and my opinion gets mixed. Lets say I'm bringing my guard and I'm fighting a space marine force. If they told me that they printed off shoulder pads and helmets, but the bodies are GW plastic, that's not a problem, I'm not going to say anything. That stuff gets expensive quickly, so fair play at 

 

If they plop down something like a Mastodon or an Astraeus in the store and told me it took them 2 days on their FDM printer, I'm leaving. Not because it's 3d printed, but because between the materials spent and the cost of the printer and running it, its infuriating and in that instance, it feels a little like cheating. That's just me though.

[mertbl]

Don't ask, don't tell. It doesn't bother me UNLESS they look like crap. Maybe its elitist or whatever but we have a guy that prints everything on fdm and doesn't even try. They all look terrible. but its local store games so its whatever. I don't refuse games with him over it. 

[librisrouge]

I'd almost be in favor of playing 3D printed armies at this point. It is more egalitarian. When I play against somebody who can just purchase the latest cheese because they have a better paycheck then me, and then pay somebody to paint them to boot, I feel cheated a bit. Like I'm not playing the other opponent but their wallet. Of course, skill is still an issue but it is just a vibe I get.

 

That being said, I would want the other players to but some effort into making their prints look nice. If their FDM models have stringy plastic sticking off of it, then we need to talk. Prime it, please. Paint it is even better (but that is true regardless.) Scale matters and so does the fact that they models should look like 40k models. That may sound silly but I'm not 100% sure I want to play a person's anime cat girls regiment (unless they're very well done.)

[Wormwoods]

My only concern is the same one I have with the more outlandish proxies or kitbashes: the models have to read as what they're standing in for. The other player needs to be able to identify what they're up against without needing to ask you every turn which model is meant to be what. It's usually pretty clear with most of the higher quality STLs or 3rd party sellers, and it certainly helps that they've simplified weapons in 10th. Get those Bladeguard with printed axes and spears and enjoy, I know I will.

 

Beyond that, go wild! Nothing wrong with 3D printed bits, bases, or whole models. Just make sure they're at least somewhat recognizable. 

[Grotsmasha]

Just don't take the mickey with scaling. There are obvious advantages to increasing or decreasing some models in size. As long as it's easily identifiable, and in the correct game size/scale, it should not cause any issue.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

In general i don’t care as long as it’s obvious what’s what from a play perspective.

 

from a general overall perspective, I think we as a community need to balance things carefully.

too much 3d printing and 3rd party purchasing, and it will significantly cut into GW’s profits. What is going to be their most likely course of action as a result? 
make up the shortfall by raising prices significantly.  Significant price rises very well could price out a significant portion of the player base, cutting into their profits again…potentially creating a vicious cycle.

[Castlerook]

55 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

In general i don’t care as long as it’s obvious what’s what from a play perspective.

 

from a general overall perspective, I think we as a community need to balance things carefully.

too much 3d printing and 3rd party purchasing, and it will significantly cut into GW’s profits. What is going to be their most likely course of action as a result? 
make up the shortfall by raising prices significantly.  Significant price rises very well could price out a significant portion of the player base, cutting into their profits again…potentially creating a vicious cycle.

The best answer is that GW starts selling STLs in addition to the their plastics. Its not outside the realm of possibility, Mantic Games does it as do a number of other games companies and to a fair degree of success.

 

The problem here is that GW has the approach of sticking it's fingers in it's ears and shouting loudly to ignore 3d printing. When it does react, its usually to slap a C&D letter. 

 

Thing is, 3d printing is a boon to the wargaming hobby. Bases, terrain, miscellaneous bits such as shoulder pads or helmets and so many other items bring a uniqueness to the hobby that has been lacking for a time.

 

3d printing is here to stay and while I would never bring a fully 3d printed army to my local Warhammer store, maybe some marines have a few bits added to them to help with that uniqueness. 

 

Anyway, I'm starting to get away from the main topic on hand, so I'll leave it there.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Castlerook

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Castlerook said:

The best answer is that GW starts selling STLs in addition to the their plastics. Its not outside the realm of possibility, Mantic Games does it as do a number of other games companies and to a fair degree of success.

 

The problem here is that GW has the approach of sticking it's fingers in it's ears and shouting loudly to ignore 3d printing. When it does react, its usually to slap a C&D letter. 

 

Thing is, 3d printing is a boon to the wargaming hobby. Bases, terrain, miscellaneous bits such as shoulder pads or helmets and so many other items bring a uniqueness to the hobby that has been lacking for a time.

 

3d printing is here to stay and while I would never bring a fully 3d printed army to my local Warhammer store, maybe some marines have a few bits added to them to help with that uniqueness. 

 

Anyway, I'm starting to get away from the main topic on hand, so I'll leave it there.

I agree, GW could embrace it, but selling STLs likely wouldn’t make as much money as selling physical models so they probably won’t do it.

 

it would be great for pre-sales. Put the file up for pre-order, and then have it unlock about 12-24hours before physical release to allow it to finish printing about the same time as it’s available in store.

[Sergeant Bastone]

I'm using Victoria Miniatures for stuff like Lady Creed and commissars because there's no way I'm paying $45 for a single guard model.  Also Ogryns because GW's ogryns are so  ing ugly (also expensive) and Victoria's ogryns match my old metal ogryn better. 

 

Edited July 8, 2023 by Grotsmasha
=] DO NOT DODGE THE SWEAR FILTER [=

[Shamansky]

5 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

 

too much 3d printing and 3rd party purchasing, and it will significantly cut into GW’s profits.

Well, that's funny really. It is geedudubs' fault in the first place. They put too much moneymaking into the game. They create rubbish-balanced rules and have to change them too often, which makes models and books less valuable. Why will i buy a quite pricy (in cash) stuff if i know it can become trash in a few weeks? They need to put a little more affort into gamemaking to get more community support.

I don't give a damn about where the model came from until i see what's what a it's not size-cheating, 3D-printing, 3d-party, rogue casting it's all a game to me.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

6 hours ago, Shamansky said:

Well, that's funny really. It is geedudubs' fault in the first place. They put too much moneymaking into the game. They create rubbish-balanced rules and have to change them too often, which makes models and books less valuable. Why will i buy a quite pricy (in cash) stuff if i know it can become trash in a few weeks? They need to put a little more affort into gamemaking to get more community support.

I don't give a damn about where the model came from until i see what's what a it's not size-cheating, 3D-printing, 3d-party, rogue casting it's all a game to me.

They have plenty of community support.

 

they’re not a game company, they don’t care about the game. They’re a model company.

[Shamansky]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

They have plenty of community support.

 

they’re not a game company, they don’t care about the game. They’re a model company.

 

If they're not a 'game company', why the warp they are creating and changing the rules for the game? Don't you see a contradiction here? 
If they care only about models, then why they ban 3d party models, and even 3d party parts of models at tournaments? That's the game part, not models, isn't it? Their models are useles without the game. I know sources of much fancier models to collect. I really did not want 200+ almost identical infatry guys. 
The ARE a game company. And being one, makes 'em face conciquences of poor game design and monetization policy.
Also they themselves use 3D-printing to create modern models. That's not work of a sculptor anymore. 3D modelling is less fail-risky, less expensive, and honestly requires less skills. So why the hell not use an alternative if you don't like the 'original geedubs art'? E.g. i absolutely hate lore and design of Ursula Creed and will never buy the original model.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Shamansky

[Castlerook]

I will say this, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what kind of company Games Workshop is, only that they are a company. As a company, they have a product they wish to sell and they are doing that. However, they need to acknowledge the fact that the industry is changing around them, they have even embraced some of those changes (use of CAD design in making sculpts), but they aren't acknowledging the real possibility that they are looking at a significant change in the hobby. 3d printing isn't a fad. It's getting better and better every year and when people can see the kind of results they get from a printer and realise they have more options that GW has been giving them, then it's clear where people are going to go.

 

To put it like this, I've always wanted to a Solar Auxilia force, but the one thing that has always knocked back that idea was the cost. €99 for a command squad? €112 for a Lasrifle section? For a barely legal force of one Command Section and 2 Lasrifle Sections, I would have to spend €323 for 46 minis, which works out to just over €7 a mini. No. No thank you. But thaks to 3d printing and for literally half the cost of the Forgeworld Command Squad, I have the files to print up the Lasrifle Section, the Veletaris section, the Command Section and Commander and Heavy weapons as many times as I want, resin permitting. Still not going to take them to a GW store, but the fact is, I have the army I want because GW shoved me out of theirs.

 

When that happens, when you are pricing your customer base out of the hobby, they will find new methods to engage in their hobby. The time for GW to pull their thumb out of their backside isn't down the line when they're getting outpaced, it's now. Sell STL files. Can you imagine the killing they would make if they converted old, out of print minis to an STL and sold them with a DRM embedded. Hell, make a slicer program that can only use their specific files and that would cut down on piracy. 

[KenaiPhoneix]

As long as it doesn't "cheat" units sizes, I don't see a problem with it. If anyone feels "Bad" or doesn't want to play with your army just because it is 3D printed, then I don't really understand the mindset behind that logic. I mean, if it is from a competitive point of view (aka units size, pose, etc) then that person shouldn't play against anyone that has a "custom pose", a conversion or any kind of modification (like using green stuff to make cool stuff to the unit) because that would "unbalance" the game.

 

If it is because of concern that GW would run out of business because of 3D print stuff, that doesnt make sense at all. Specially in the case of the Imperial Guard where there are multiple regiments that just doesn't get any models. You either get a Cadiam regiment, or you get a Cadian regiment. 3D print, proxies, etc helps to fill that gap in some regiments. And is just ignoring all the other money they made by licensing the IP to video games, movies, etc.

 

And lastly, this is a construction hobby, everything is give to us unpainted, unassembled and even with spare parts so we can express ourselves. They even leave free space in the lore so we can create our own custom regiments and be creative. 3D print stuff could help someone archive that identity that you want to put on your army. And at the end of the day, it is just a hobby and a game that it is enjoyed best when everyone is enjoying it. And part of they joy is to build "your" army.

 

So, I don't have a problem playing with it.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 7/6/2023 at 10:52 AM, Shamansky said:

 

If they're not a 'game company', why the warp they are creating and changing the rules for the game? Don't you see a contradiction here? 
If they care only about models, then why they ban 3d party models, and even 3d party parts of models at tournaments? That's the game part, not models, isn't it? Their models are useles without the game. I know sources of much fancier models to collect. I really did not want 200+ almost identical infatry guys. 
The ARE a game company. And being one, makes 'em face conciquences of poor game design and monetization policy.
Also they themselves use 3D-printing to create modern models. That's not work of a sculptor anymore. 3D modelling is less fail-risky, less expensive, and honestly requires less skills. So why the hell not use an alternative if you don't like the 'original geedubs art'? E.g. i absolutely hate lore and design of Ursula Creed and will never buy the original model.

The game is a vehicle to sell models.

 

just like franchises don’t produce super hero cartoons because they’re in the business of making cartoons. 
cartoons for the last 40+ years have been 30 minute long commercials for toys and other merchandise.

 

why ban 3d printed and 3rd party models and parts from their events? Well gee I wonder why they wouldn’t want you to use someone else’s models at their events…couldn’t be to force you to buy their products now could it?

 

the models are not useless without the game. There are plenty of people in the community with thousands of points worth of models that have played few if any games.

 

the game doesn’t make them any real money. The models do.

 

they don’t care if you use their models to play OPR, or Reign in Hell.

but they do care if you use someone else’s models to play their game.

 

3D design and 3d printing are two completely different things…but if they do one or either is completely irrelevant.

 

the game design of 40K has been horrible for several editions, what consequences did they face? 
the game design for 10th is already proving to be poorly designed. What consequences are they facing?

Edited July 7, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Santaclauswitz]

On 7/5/2023 at 6:56 PM, Harrowmaster said:

I have loads of Anvil models so I'm biased but I have no issue.. It's not up to me to say what minis you use (as long as they accurately represent your units). 

What are your impressions of anvil models? How are they on scale? Would they look too big next to the old metal models? Many thanks!

[Santaclauswitz]

On 7/6/2023 at 7:25 AM, Sergeant Bastone said:

I'm using Victoria Miniatures for stuff like Lady Creed and commissars because there's no way I'm paying $45 for a single guard model.  Also Ogryns because GW's ogryns are so  ing ugly (also expensive) and Victoria's ogryns match my old metal ogryn better. 

 

I've actually got 4 female tannenburg to build somewhere and they look great. I'd like to get some more sometime. Probably not lots because 20% vat makes them a bit costly. 

[Santaclauswitz]

Thank you all for the input! What I've decided is to start go through what I've already got and spend most of my my budget on modeling supplies to make the most out of what I've got. In time I'll probably buy the 3d printed rapiers and earthshaker pre printed. Hopefully I'll get a 3d printer sometime down the line. Also some 3rd party stuff, just not sure what yet!

 

So far I've only managed to count what I've got in my garage. What I'll do is start a new thread to chart my progress. 

 

Many thanks again. 

[Harrowmaster]

1 hour ago, Santaclauswitz said:

What are your impressions of anvil models? How are they on scale? Would they look too big next to the old metal models? Many thanks!

The guard ones are not too big against the metals. They have a decent scale next to both the old and the new Cadians. They're the same size as the old Cadians but better proportioned and a tiny bit smaller than the new ones. 

[Shamansky]

On 7/8/2023 at 4:25 AM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

The game is a vehicle to sell models.

 

just like franchises don’t produce super hero cartoons because they’re in the business of making cartoons. 
cartoons for the last 40+ years have been 30 minute long commercials for toys and other merchandise.

 

why ban 3d printed and 3rd party models and parts from their events? Well gee I wonder why they wouldn’t want you to use someone else’s models at their events…couldn’t be to force you to buy their products now could it?

 

the models are not useless without the game. There are plenty of people in the community with thousands of points worth of models that have played few if any games.

 

the game doesn’t make them any real money. The models do.

 

they don’t care if you use their models to play OPR, or Reign in Hell.

but they do care if you use someone else’s models to play their game.

 

3D design and 3d printing are two completely different things…but if they do one or either is completely irrelevant.

 

the game design of 40K has been horrible for several editions, what consequences did they face? 
the game design for 10th is already proving to be poorly designed. What consequences are they facing?

Most of things in this world in the end exists to earn money. Ever wondered where free to play games get money from? I don't talk about those mobile 'pay-to-continue' trash. Let's look at something of League of Legends/Dota 2 level. People pay for cosmetics and battlepass because they enjoy the game. If the game is trash it won't get any sales. Because geedubs own all the intellectual rights they do whatever they want, they even turned their pay to play game into pay to win, which doesn't make it any better gamewise but helps with sales of course. So in the end the game brings 'em those money. And they care for it to be selling. That's why they change rules, and ban third party models (like pirate copies are not supported by video games companies). This makes 'em a game company, on the contrary to many model companies who sell models and parts for whatever game or just for collecting and art purposes.

'few if any games' shows that those models are not used. Isn't that the same with 'usless' if not played? Pure collectors don't buy hundreds of models from the same kit, ya know. In most cases people buy armies for thousands points with the intention to play the game.

 

Casting is still cheaper to produce large amount of models, so 3D-printing for GW is irrelevent, and i was not talking about it in that sense. Don't try to make me look foolish. In the past when 3D-printing was not a thing, one of the reasons for people to buy original models was to appreciate the work of the sculptors. Now the model creating process became easier cheaper and in many cases is even a 'copy-paste' thing. But still costs as the work of art it used to be.

 

What consequances? Well they don't sell the same amount of rulebooks, because as you admitted 'the game doesn’t make them any real money', i.e. very few people buy their books. 3D-printing and 3d party and rougue-casted models are eating the enlarging part of their profit. If it was not a problem they would still allow convertions on their events as it used to be. They sell goods which are not that valuable anymore but keep the highest price on the market. 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Shamansky

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

13 hours ago, Shamansky said:

Most of things in this world in the end exists to earn money. Ever wondered where free to play games get money from? I don't talk about those mobile 'pay-to-continue' trash. Let's look at something of League of Legends/Dota 2 level. People pay for cosmetics and battlepass because they enjoy the game. If the game is trash it won't get any sales. Because geedubs own all the intellectual rights they do whatever they want, they even turned their pay to play game into pay to win, which doesn't make it any better gamewise but helps with sales of course. So in the end the game brings 'em those money. And they care for it to be selling. That's why they change rules, and ban third party models (like pirate copies are not supported by video games companies). This makes 'em a game company, on the contrary to many model companies who sell models and parts for whatever game or just for collecting and art purposes.

'few if any games' shows that those models are not used. Isn't that the same with 'usless' if not played? Pure collectors don't buy hundreds of models from the same kit, ya know. In most cases people buy armies for thousands points with the intention to play the game.

 

Casting is still cheaper to produce large amount of models, so 3D-printing for GW is irrelevent, and i was not talking about it in that sense. Don't try to make me look foolish. In the past when 3D-printing was not a thing, one of the reasons for people to buy original models was to appreciate the work of the sculptors. Now the model creating process became easier cheaper and in many cases is even a 'copy-paste' thing. But still costs as the work of art it used to be.

 

What consequances? Well they don't sell the same amount of rulebooks, because as you admitted 'the game doesn’t make them any real money', i.e. very few people buy their books. 3D-printing and 3d party and rougue-casted models are eating the enlarging part of their profit. If it was not a problem they would still allow convertions on their events as it used to be. They sell goods which are not that valuable anymore but keep the highest price on the market. 

The game gets worse and worse, or at least new flavors of bad, and 40K is more popular than ever, so bad game design doesn’t seem to be having too many consequences as far as I can tell.