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[Sergeant Bastone]

He's saying that the reason we have set squad sizes and no point cost for weaponry is because it makes it easier for GW to make their app.  I agree with this. 

[Karhedron]

7 minutes ago, Sergeant Bastone said:

He's saying that the reason we have set squad sizes and no point cost for weaponry is because it makes it easier for GW to make their app.  I agree with this. 

 

True but most other squads have variable sizes. Only Tactical squads are fixed at 10 with no option for a 5-man squad.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Probably because of their myriad of weapon options, which change depending on unit size.

[Helycon]

3 hours ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

Probably because of their myriad of weapon options, which change depending on unit size.

GW have outrightly stated you will be able to take units in sizes as they come out of the box, with some leeway if the box offers to make you a single model into a leader/character. Tacticals come in boxes of 10, no models make something different, so that's the unit size. It's that ham-fisted. It was also one of the myriad reasons why Death Guard were annoyed by the squad size of Plague Marines, as they come in boxes of 7, but had a squad size of 10 as a minimum. Fixed now, but another miss for 10th (lack of) proofreading. 

[Interrogator Stobz]

I get that, but why did they decide that was the metric?

 

[Arkhanist]

6 minutes ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

I get that, but why did they decide that was the metric?

 

 

So new players don't even need to know how to count. It's what they did with AoS, and now they've done it to 40k. You buy a box, you build it exactly as instructed, making maybe one choice, and put the contents in your list. 40k, Simplified.

 

At least we skipped what they did 1st time round in AoS, where they dropped points entirely and you just literally took what you thought was fair, until backlash forced them to introduce the 'optional' generals handbook. And oh god, the 'funny' rules where you got literal dice roll bonuses based on time of day or stuff like "if you hold aloft a goblet and shout 'for the lady' in a heroic voice". It was a shock coming from WFB, that's for sure. GW apparently think their target market are mentally 8 year olds.

[Helycon]

20 minutes ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

I get that, but why did they decide that was the metric?

 

Because that's basically how power level worked in 9th 

[Emperor Ming]

31 minutes ago, Helycon said:

Because that's basically how power level worked in 9th 

Its really lazy,

 

Lets get rid of power levels because they were not as popular as points

 

Buts lets replace them with a system that's practically power level all but in name.....

 

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Emperor Ming said:

Its really lazy,

 

Lets get rid of power levels because they were not as popular as points

 

Buts lets replace them with a system that's practically power level all but in name.....

 

 

Something had to have happened late in development to cause the team to switch over to this Power Level system. Just from a business perspective, I would really like to know what happened during the creation of 10th edition to cause things to turn out this way.

[Blindhamster]

2 hours ago, Arkhanist said:

GW apparently think their target market are mentally 8 year olds.

Or roleplayers :D

[DemonGSides]

I mean, regular Intercessors can be taken in a squad of 5 but they only build out of a single 10 man box. Same with Hellblasters, same with Assault Intercessors.

So I think it's mostly just dumb GW decision than some mythical "The box is what's in the squad" that everyone LOVES to get wrong.  That was always in reference to loadouts, not number of bodies in a squad.  GW just :cuss:ed up Tacticals.

Edited July 29, 2023 by DemonGSides

[Arkhanist]

9 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Or roleplayers :D

 

I have a bigger and more impressive beard* than you, so my dwarf thane gets to re-roll hits. I shudder to think what the 40k equivalent would be. I have more cthulu tentacles than you, so my swarmlord gets to re-roll wounds?

 

* I do, in fact, have a beard.

Edited July 29, 2023 by Arkhanist

[Special Officer Doofy]

1 hour ago, phandaal said:

 

Something had to have happened late in development to cause the team to switch over to this Power Level system. Just from a business perspective, I would really like to know what happened during the creation of 10th edition to cause things to turn out this way.

 

Realizing they couldn't get the app to work for list building without multiples of 5 for costs and free wargear probably haha.

[irlLordy]

4 hours ago, Helycon said:

GW have outrightly stated you will be able to take units in sizes as they come out of the box, with some leeway if the box offers to make you a single model into a leader/character. Tacticals come in boxes of 10, no models make something different, so that's the unit size. It's that ham-fisted. It was also one of the myriad reasons why Death Guard were annoyed by the squad size of Plague Marines, as they come in boxes of 7, but had a squad size of 10 as a minimum. Fixed now, but another miss for 10th (lack of) proofreading. 

 

Plague marine minimum size is 5 models, not 10. The errata let DG players take squad sizes of 7, but didn't change the model requirements for weapons.

 

Theres no reason why tactical marine squads can't come in 5s, other than GW wants them to be more expensive points wise. Intercessors and hellblasters for example come in boxes of 10 but have minimum squad sizes of 5.

[Kallas]

1 hour ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Realizing they couldn't get the app to work for list building without multiples of 5 for costs and free wargear probably haha.

Probably because they're only willing to spend the absolute bare minimum on development costs, so they had to resort to whipping the one developer they have locked and chained in their basement. When the dev cried out that the points system was too complicated to code in 30 minutes, their cold business minds sheer empathy and love for humanity shone through...so they made it simpler for that poor soul to manage, and slapped on a price tag to match their generosity! 

[jimbo1701]

I could live with the fixed squad sizes, restricted options (ie what comes in the box is what they can take) and dumbing down/restricting weapons categories (ie power weapons).
 

What I find most frustrating is the lack of granularity with the options as, in my opinion, this achieves 2 things. Firstly, it helps balance options so that and cannon doesn’t cost the same as a vibro cannon and therefore you don’t see vibro cannons for a whole edition. 
 

Secondly, list building is becoming frustrating as I struggle to build to precisely 2000 points any more and that additional layer of granularity would allow me to do so. 

[Redcomet]

List building is quite annoying. Having to spend 70-80 points on SOMETHING. 

[Helycon]

6 minutes ago, Redcomet said:

List building is quite annoying. Having to spend 70-80 points on SOMETHING. 

Yes. This is especially annoying in more elite armies. The only real option you tend to have, is enhancements. 

[Bloody Legionnaire]

7 hours ago, Helycon said:

GW have outrightly stated you will be able to take units in sizes as they come out of the box, with some leeway if the box offers to make you a single model into a leader/character. Tacticals come in boxes of 10, no models make something different, so that's the unit size. It's that ham-fisted. It was also one of the myriad reasons why Death Guard were annoyed by the squad size of Plague Marines, as they come in boxes of 7, but had a squad size of 10 as a minimum. Fixed now, but another miss for 10th (lack of) proofreading. 

 

Ehrrm.. So how do you defend that considering Intercessors, Assault Intercessors, Hellblasters, and Desolators all come in boxes of 10 yet have the option to be taken in squads of 5?

Oh right.. you can't...

 

DG did not have a minimum of 10. The issue is, you pay for 5 or you pay for 10. Unfortunately coming as a box of 7 meant you had to buy 2 boxes in order to have a squad of 10.. 

If you used your unit of 7 (as comes in the box) you were paying for 10. I think you're a little off on your information. 

Edited July 29, 2023 by Bloody Legionnaire

[Helycon]

3 hours ago, irlLordy said:

 

Plague marine minimum size is 5 models, not 10. The errata let DG players take squad sizes of 7, but didn't change the model requirements for weapons.

 

Theres no reason why tactical marine squads can't come in 5s, other than GW wants them to be more expensive points wise. Intercessors and hellblasters for example come in boxes of 10 but have minimum squad sizes of 5.

Apologies! Must have remembered that wrong. I knew it had to do with the fact they came in boxes of 7, didn't know it could be 5 as well. 

[Mr. Oddity]

2 hours ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

 

Ehrrm.. So how do you defend that considering Intercessors, Assault Intercessors, Hellblasters, and Desolators all come in boxes of 10 yet have the option to be taken in squads of 5?

Preface: I do not believe GW made the correct decision in fixed sizes.

 

The reason for that is because almost every starter or value box released for Astartes in the last 6 years has had a 5-man squad of at least one of the above. Several are still available from GW as well. Indomitus was 5 Hellblasters, Recruit edition was 5 Assault Intercessors, almost every Combat Patrol has 5 Intercessors. Because of that widespread availability (and because GW made the decision to commit to Primaris), those squad sizes were made available for people. Tactical haven't been in a box set for quite a while, so the impetus to support reduced squads is lower despite it being as simple as editing the data card. Hopefully the Codex will edit that.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

14 minutes ago, Mr. Oddity said:

Preface: I do not believe GW made the correct decision in fixed sizes.

 

The reason for that is because almost every starter or value box released for Astartes in the last 6 years has had a 5-man squad of at least one of the above. Several are still available from GW as well. Indomitus was 5 Hellblasters, Recruit edition was 5 Assault Intercessors, almost every Combat Patrol has 5 Intercessors. Because of that widespread availability (and because GW made the decision to commit to Primaris), those squad sizes were made available for people. Tactical haven't been in a box set for quite a while, so the impetus to support reduced squads is lower despite it being as simple as editing the data card. Hopefully the Codex will edit that.

 

I don't really understand the need to argue this "5-man squad" thing. You're absolutely wrong. Dark Imperium came with 10 intercessors, Indomitus came with 10 assault intercessors, Leviathan comes with 10 infernus marines, Dark Vengeance came with 10 tacticals.. Up until this edition, those 10 tacticals could be legally (by the rules) divided into a combat squad and taken as a unit of 5 as much as all of the primaris marines could be taken in units of 5 or 10. I really don't know what you're trying to argue right now or what you think you're making a point about what comes in "X" box and the intent GW has for how many it wants you to have in a squad. 

 

Edit:

It should also be noted having to pay the points for a 10 man unit of tacticals is also not an issue, it's the fact that those tacticals cannot combat squad that's really the annoying part. Devastators can still be taken in a unit of 10 and which would require a box of devastators and a box of tacticals to create that squad... I really think this "WeLL gW InTeNdEd wHaT wAs iN tHe boX" BS needs to go away already.. 

Edited July 29, 2023 by Bloody Legionnaire

[Blindhamster]

5 minutes ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

I really don't know what you're trying to argue right now or what you think you're making a point about what comes in "X" box and the intent GW has for how many it wants you to have in a squad. 

I may be mistaken, but I think the point being argued was:
- dark imperium came with 5 hellblasters

- dark angel combat patrol comes with 5 intercessors

- blood angels combat patrol comes with 5 intercessors and 5 incursors/infiltrators

- space wolf combat patrol comes with 5 intercessors and 5 reivers

 

There's no way to just buy 5 tacticals anymore, and hasnt been for a long time. whereas devastators and assault squads come as 5 models, so still support it.

 

Much like @Mr. Oddity I don't like the change either, and think they should go back to minimum and maximum with each model having a set price, but the logic behind why the units referenced come in 5s is fairly clear based on that. Assault intercessors are the only exception where if they're going for "supporting what you can buy" then they should always be 10 man too.

[irlLordy]

Rubric marines and legionaries also come in boxes of 10, but can be taken in units of 5. I wouldn't look for consistency with squad sizes here, more likely they've decided they'll go with the box size squad for most units, but more "elite" troop choices can come in squad sizes of 5s.

 

Everything else is box size. And tactical marines got the battle sister treatment where they jumped from 5s to 10s from 9th to 10th, because they want the "default" SM battleline unit to be 5 intercessors.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

58 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

I may be mistaken, but I think the point being argued was:
- dark imperium came with 5 hellblasters

- dark angel combat patrol comes with 5 intercessors

- blood angels combat patrol comes with 5 intercessors and 5 incursors/infiltrators

- space wolf combat patrol comes with 5 intercessors and 5 reivers

 

There's no way to just buy 5 tacticals anymore, and hasnt been for a long time. whereas devastators and assault squads come as 5 models, so still support it.

 

Much like @Mr. Oddity I don't like the change either, and think they should go back to minimum and maximum with each model having a set price, but the logic behind why the units referenced come in 5s is fairly clear based on that. Assault intercessors are the only exception where if they're going for "supporting what you can buy" then they should always be 10 man too.

He said starter set as well. Starter sets include all the sets I had listed...

Also, the SWs combat patrol comes with *10* intercessors as does the Deathwatch.. and the former SM combat patrol included *10* infilrators. Nice attempt to conveniently (and wrongly as well) pick the box sets you felt made your point!

Edited July 29, 2023 by Bloody Legionnaire