Updates to Datacards!

[Blindhamster]

Fail to see how the point isn't still made? Theres no place that provides 5 tactical marines, theres places (more than one) that provide just 5 of most of the units from the primaris side that allows 5 or 10 man units. e.g. they don't *need* to support 5 man tacticals, because they're not a thing they sell, they *need* to support 5 man intercessors, reivers, infiltrators, incursors because they exist in at least one squad currently available (arguably, they also dont need to support 5 man hellblaster squads as they dont exist anymore)

I even acknowledged the fact Assault intercessors should probably be 10 man only based on the above logic AND said regardless, I don't like or agree with the fact GW have done it. So perhaps chill a little :)

 

edit

it's also a good point you made in your edit (which I didnt see, sorry), about devastators being weird, because to make a 10 man squad you literally need a tactical squad to do it, meaning you'd have 5 tactical marines left over

 

edit edit

also occurs to me, maybe from a GW logic perspective, as all the models in a tacitcal squad are "unique", and the set can't be split in the same way that the primaris stuff can, that might have been their logic? IDK...

 

anyway, to reiterate for the third time, I'd prefer the granular purchasing of models for the unit rules too, I think it has some interesting applications for narrative forces with strangely numbered units to represent those squads that took casualties, and it makes for more interesting list building. All I'm doing is speculating on why they probably did it.

Edited July 29, 2023 by Blindhamster
elaboration on the actual point

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Attempting to make the point that because box sets exist with 5 models the minimum number was set at 5 has already been disproven with a point several people including myself have made in regards to at least Plague Marines. I do not wish to look thru all of the rules just to demonstrate to you that logic is flawed..

 

A more reasonable argument is it was an oversight by GW OR, it was an arbitrary decision. 

TRUST ME.. I've not missed anything you've attempted to say. 

[Mr. Oddity]

@Bloody Legionnaire I apologize for the inaccuracies in my statement, I was on break at work and didn't have time to fully confirm the squad sizes from the 8th and 9th starters or make a comprehensive list. It was merely my speculation as a consumer as to GW's internal reasoning. As with Blindhamster and yourself, I agree that arbitrarily limiting Tacticals to a 10-man squad is not the correct decision at at minimum they should have retained the 5-man size. It was just my thoughts on the matter. Sorry if I came off as confrontational or argumentative!

[Bloody Legionnaire]

17 minutes ago, Mr. Oddity said:

@Bloody Legionnaire I apologize for the inaccuracies in my statement, I was on break at work and didn't have time to fully confirm the squad sizes from the 8th and 9th starters or make a comprehensive list. It was merely my speculation as a consumer as to GW's internal reasoning. As with Blindhamster and yourself, I agree that arbitrarily limiting Tacticals to a 10-man squad is not the correct decision at at minimum they should have retained the 5-man size. It was just my thoughts on the matter. Sorry if I came off as confrontational or argumentative!

 

I don't have a problem with arguments(I think they're good things if knowledge comes out of them), forums are a place for this (as long as they don't get out of hand).

 

The illusory truth effect is very strong in forums. IMO it's important to argue against that, otherwise it gets out of hand and then a good portion of people just start to accept things as fact. 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Bloody Legionnaire

[Gederas]

5 hours ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

He said starter set as well. Starter sets include all the sets I had listed...

Err... Going off of the paint jobs, Dark Imperium was two 5-man squads of Intercessors, and Indomitus was also shown as two five-man squads

 

The Tactical squad is definitely a weird one, but with how obviously slap-dash the 10e indices are, it wouldn't surprise me if whoever did the datasheet just... Forgot and was on autopilot

Edited July 30, 2023 by Gederas

[ZeroWolf]

Let's also not forget that in GWs eyes, the starters are actually those 3 tier sets they do now, while Dark Imperium, Indomitus and Leviathan are launch boxes. In those starter sets, they were only in squads of 5.

[Matrindur]

21 minutes ago, ZeroWolf said:

Let's also not forget that in GWs eyes, the starters are actually those 3 tier sets they do now, while Dark Imperium, Indomitus and Leviathan are launch boxes. In those starter sets, they were only in squads of 5.

Indomitus and Leviathan yes but Dark Imperium was the highest tier of the 3 starter sets back then, it was available for the full edition. They only started launch sets with Indomitus.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Matrindur

[Ming the Merciless]

Does the Tactical squad kit build two "official" sergeants? The 10 marine intercessor kits can. 

[Gederas]

39 minutes ago, Ming the Merciless said:

Does the Tactical squad kit build two "official" sergeants? The 10 marine intercessor kits can. 

(Had to check the webstore as I never got the Tactical squad kit )

 

There's 11 Torsos, one being the Mark 8 that's shown for the Sergeant.

 

However, going off the kit's pictures, there's extra arms and weapons that you could have a Sergeant with a Mark 5, 6, or 7 torso along with a Sergeant with the Mark 8 torso.

 

And from the product description itself:
"This box contains everything you need to make a highly personalised 10 man Tactical Squad, including Sergeant and Special Weapon.  [...] The squad Sergeant can be armed with a combination of power fist, power sword or chainsword, and plasma pistol, grav pistol or bolt pistol. You can also make any 1 of the following combi-bolters – combi-grav, combi-melta, combi-plasma, or combi-flamer."

 

Compared to the Intercessors page:

"The models can be assembled as either a 10-man squad, a squad of 9 Intercessors with a Sergeant or 2 separate 5-man squads, each with a Sergeant of their own. The Sergeants feature unique heads, with a helmet mag-locked to their belt, and unique tilting plates to help them stand out."

 

Now that can be chalked up to the Intercessors being two sprues of 5 marines, duplicated for 10, whereas the Tacticals are an older design where there's three distinct sprues.

 

 

TL;DR: BASED OFF THE PRODUCT DESCRIPTIONS, NO THE TACTICAL SQUAD DOES NOT HAVE TWO OFFICIAL SERGEANT MODELS IN THE KIT

[soviet1337]

24 minutes ago, Gederas said:

(Had to check the webstore as I never got the Tactical squad kit )

 

There's 11 Torsos, one being the Mark 8 that's shown for the Sergeant.

 

However, going off the kit's pictures, there's extra arms and weapons that you could have a Sergeant with a Mark 5, 6, or 7 torso along with a Sergeant with the Mark 8 torso.

 

And from the product description itself:
"This box contains everything you need to make a highly personalised 10 man Tactical Squad, including Sergeant and Special Weapon.  [...] The squad Sergeant can be armed with a combination of power fist, power sword or chainsword, and plasma pistol, grav pistol or bolt pistol. You can also make any 1 of the following combi-bolters – combi-grav, combi-melta, combi-plasma, or combi-flamer."

 

Compared to the Intercessors page:

"The models can be assembled as either a 10-man squad, a squad of 9 Intercessors with a Sergeant or 2 separate 5-man squads, each with a Sergeant of their own. The Sergeants feature unique heads, with a helmet mag-locked to their belt, and unique tilting plates to help them stand out."

 

Now that can be chalked up to the Intercessors being two sprues of 5 marines, duplicated for 10, whereas the Tacticals are an older design where there's three distinct sprues.

 

 

TL;DR: BASED OFF THE PRODUCT DESCRIPTIONS, NO THE TACTICAL SQUAD DOES NOT HAVE TWO OFFICIAL SERGEANT MODELS IN THE KIT

?

 

There is no 'official sergeant model' in the Tactical kit at all. The different torsos can be used anywhere. What normally denotes a sergeant is their special cc equipment and the kit contains multiple options. You can easily build 2 5-man Tac squads with sergeants from that box. 

[Mana]

I honestly disagree with the reasons of the discussion, where it started and where it's going. I don't care what the description of the product says in the gw page, I don't care what logic GW used to remove the choice for 5 man tactical squads, or 5 man kabalites/wyches etc. What I care about is that GW is taking options away, options that were there for a long time in previous editions, and NO, less choice is never ever good, no matter the context or place in life. They still sell the kit of tactical squads, they didn't get axed this time around, they should still be able to be 5 man squads, like the did for a long time. Anyway all of this can be a pointless discussion in the end, they might give tacticals 5 man squads again in the codex.

 

I want GW to release a codex already, so we can get a clear picture of what is their full plan with this edition, the indexes are a stop gap measure.

 

 

 

 

[Dr. Clock]

1 hour ago, Ming the Merciless said:

Does the Tactical squad kit build two "official" sergeants? The 10 marine intercessor kits can. 

Looks like it builds... 3 sergeants lol: power fist, power sword and chainsword + bolt pistol, plasma pistol and combi-weapon.

 

Honestly I think this is down to box art and instructions more than anything: important to keep in mind that any project may be the first one a kid is attempting, and that instructions and box art need to stand 'independent' of what the rules allow to avoid too much confusion.

 

Going forward, if you want 5-man marine units I'd just recommend using them as 5-man Intercessors or better yet Sternguard if you've got them with heaps of non-standard kit - just say the double specials in each squad are the 'combi-weapons' and be done with it ; ) -  "Closest Primaris equivalent' will be where alot of people's other Firstborn end up (if they were still using them alot in any case). Personally I kind of like playing with a couple 10-man tacticals as the Codex intended. Not every game, mind, but my 5th ed. Salamanders army still sees the field a couple times a year and that's enough for me.

 

In principle I think the game would be fine if all 'reinforcement' models were pointed for each additional squad member, but you'd need to word things in such a way that new specials/heavies are added in only every 5/10 or whatever. That means continuing to spread to cost of the heavy weapon '10th tactical' across all members of that second combat squad, which is also fine - it's okay if you have to pay 2ppm for the 6th-9th if taking the 10th grants something cool IMO. It'll mean maybe one or 2 units in an army have an odd number, but it would also mean I likely never take an enhancement as I'm starting to pathologically land on 1990-2000 points in lists.

 

The worst effect of this GW strategy seems to be that it's such a strong disincentive to character conversions from squad boxes. As soon as you convert a squaddie to a Lt., you've lost the ''for every ten' options from that squad and are paying for the 10th member even if they're absent. I buy lots of kits from GW but I don't touch their solo characters because the value on them as 'a la carte' kits is always terrible IMO. Having a deep bitz box after 20+ years means I kitbash about half my Leaders/Operatives and otherwise get by with those I get in bundles. Now I need to be very careful not to convert a couple Kabalites into Archon Court members because I'll eviscerate the kabalite unit if I do. Somewhat annoying, but I've been learning some tricks dabbling in AoS where the situation is roundly the same (although it's easier to find credible third-party sculpts for some Battleline to start AoS cheap).

 

Luckily Necromunda, Kill-Team, Warcry and Underworlds are right there waiting for more efficient character / elites conversions.

 

I do kind of enjoy the change to the this new style of list building... it makes it easier and harder lol.

 

Has anyone tried to institute a change to the points/units model in any games? I'd consider it, but I don't think it'd change how I build lists, just what I do when I have 10-15 pts left over. That alone seems to suggest that we don't really need to go back that way, and I don't want to go back to having different special/heavy weapon costs... probably prefer a slight nerf to lascannons as they are pretty much most efficient option in most cases where they're available. Back to d6 damage? Heck - making them d3 + 2 would be a bit better vs. heavy infantry but a bit worse into vehicles, which seems fine - 3-5 damage vs 2-7 ?

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Dr. Clock

[Bloody Legionnaire]

15 hours ago, Gederas said:

Err... Going off of the paint jobs, Dark Imperium was two 5-man squads of Intercessors, and Indomitus was also shown as two five-man squads

 

The Tactical squad is definitely a weird one, but with how obviously slap-dash the 10e indices are, it wouldn't surprise me if whoever did the datasheet just... Forgot and was on autopilot

 

Those 2x5 man squads can be played at 1x10 man squad can they not? 1x10 man tactical squad can be played as 2x5 man combat squads can they not? 

Stop being ridiculous!

[Bloody Legionnaire]

21 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

Fail to see how the point isn't still made? Theres no place that provides 5 tactical marines, theres places (more than one) that provide just 5 of most of the units from the primaris side that allows 5 or 10 man units. e.g. they don't *need* to support 5 man tacticals, because they're not a thing they sell, they *need* to support 5 man intercessors, reivers, infiltrators, incursors because they exist in at least one squad currently available (arguably, they also dont need to support 5 man hellblaster squads as they dont exist anymore)

I even acknowledged the fact Assault intercessors should probably be 10 man only based on the above logic AND said regardless, I don't like or agree with the fact GW have done it. So perhaps chill a little :)

 

edit

it's also a good point you made in your edit (which I didnt see, sorry), about devastators being weird, because to make a 10 man squad you literally need a tactical squad to do it, meaning you'd have 5 tactical marines left over

 

edit edit

also occurs to me, maybe from a GW logic perspective, as all the models in a tacitcal squad are "unique", and the set can't be split in the same way that the primaris stuff can, that might have been their logic? IDK...

 

anyway, to reiterate for the third time, I'd prefer the granular purchasing of models for the unit rules too, I think it has some interesting applications for narrative forces with strangely numbered units to represent those squads that took casualties, and it makes for more interesting list building. All I'm doing is speculating on why they probably did it.

 

There is no place that provides 5-Grey Hunters and yet.... you can have a unit of 5-Grey Hunters.. and as I've already stated there's no place that provides for 10 devastators..

Edited July 30, 2023 by Tyriks
non constructive phrasing

[WrathOfTheLion]

It isn't as though anyone's opinion here actually drove the decision. I think we need to keep in mind this is just what individuals may think the reasoning could have been. The decision was already made by someone that none of us likely know for whatever reason they decided upon.

[Arkhanist]

Well one obvious potential reason is to make taking tactical squads less convenient and flexible, to continue to gently nudge us to buying more primaris and less firstborn before they eventually retire the kit in a few more years. The tactical squad remains a pretty popular purchase for now, so it won't happen overnight.

 

We'll see if they stick to the decision come the codex, but I expect the indexes to be a preview of that ratchet effect rather than an aberration. e.g. we now know bikes, scouts, land speeders, assault squads etc are either going away, or being merged with their primaris replacements ala sternguard, so I expect the 10 man tac squad to be a permanent change, which of course has the knock on effect of also making the razorback less useful etc. The only suprising thing for me really is that it's taken this long to put the squeeze on people with old firstborn armies, I was expecting it to happen a bit faster.

 

 

[Interrogator Stobz]

^^^This.

GeeDub need to erode the popularity of Tacticals in order to send them to Legends, be it in 11th, 12th or whenever.

Eventually they will have no other purely OG units (LRs and TDA are obviously staying forever) and the infantry will follow the vehicles. 

 

On the bright side, once all our OG units are in Legends we won't need to buy a Codex. 

Its already getting more interesting than the index.....

 

....Winning.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Interrogator Stobz

[Dr. Clock]

3 hours ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

On the bright side, once all our OG units are in Legends we won't need to buy a Codex. 

... Unless you build an army from Heresy minis that 'just so happen' to correspond to Primaris loadouts.

 

Any Tactical box could easily proxy 4x5 Intercessors, then get the Plasma-cannon / heavy flamer upgrade set and throw those on another tactical box. All of a sudden that's 10 Hellblasters and 10 Infernus with ease, and a hop, skip and jump away from Eradicators converted from... Relic Termies? Alternatively, just say all the melta guys are more hellblasters and most will be okay with that if Devatators 'aren't allowed'.

 

I'm okay with rules and models support for 40k oldmarines going if it means the Heresy range remains tbh.  If you like the Heresy look better than Primaris, then it seems like the Heresy loadouts actually gel better with the direction of Primaris units. I'm definitely adding an Acheron to my collection for 40k... and a couple Deimos Rhinos for WE.

 

TL;DR I don't think it's feasible to maintain 3 complete lines of space marines. We just got, and are getting, more oldmarines... They're just called Horus Heresy units?

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Dr. Clock

[Orion]

On 7/30/2023 at 6:51 AM, Blindhamster said:

I may be mistaken, but I think the point being argued was:
- dark imperium came with 5 hellblasters

- dark angel combat patrol comes with 5 intercessors

- blood angels combat patrol comes with 5 intercessors and 5 incursors/infiltrators

- space wolf combat patrol comes with 5 intercessors and 5 reivers

 

There's no way to just buy 5 tacticals anymore, and hasnt been for a long time. whereas devastators and assault squads come as 5 models, so still support it.

 

Much like @Mr. Oddity I don't like the change either, and think they should go back to minimum and maximum with each model having a set price, but the logic behind why the units referenced come in 5s is fairly clear based on that. Assault intercessors are the only exception where if they're going for "supporting what you can buy" then they should always be 10 man too.

Hey, hey. Could be worse. Death Korps of Krieg Subterranean Assault Squad comes with 12 Engineers including the team as two. .... and you can't use any of them. 

Am I allowed to say 10th ed is trash yet?

[Blindhamster]

11 minutes ago, JayJapanB said:

Hey, hey. Could be worse. Death Korps of Krieg Subterranean Assault Squad comes with 12 Engineers including the team as two. .... and you can't use any of them. 

Am I allowed to say 10th ed is trash yet?

Of course! You’re allowed to say you don’t like something just as much as someone else is allowed to say they do. Every game and edition will have people that love and hate them.

 

sucks about the kreigers :( I guess they used to be supported via imperial armour or something in 9th? (Sorry, not really up on them at all), any way to still use the models? Will they work as infantry squads or just totally useless now?

[Orion]

2 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Of course! You’re allowed to say you don’t like something just as much as someone else is allowed to say they do. Every game and edition will have people that love and hate them.

 

sucks about the kreigers :( I guess they used to be supported via imperial armour or something in 9th? (Sorry, not really up on them at all), any way to still use the models? Will they work as infantry squads or just totally useless now?

Haha, it's all good. It's just kinda funny reading all this when I just had 30 models cut from my army that I bought less than a year ago. (and are still currently up for sale on the webstore). I can only assume oversight. There are some obscure units that haven't been sold for a decade in Legends, so not having a current model line in any rules is weird. 

 

Engineers went from mainline Imperial Armour straight to MIA. No Legends to speak of. (And they never were previously)

As for proxies, I mean I'd rather not. GW themselves didn't provide any suggestions in their proxy documentation.
However now that shotgun vets are gone, the closest I can think is Imperial Navy Breachers from Agents of the Imperium. Doesn't help the heavy weapon teams.

[Interrogator Stobz]

4 hours ago, Dr. Clock said:

... Unless you build an army from Heresy minis that 'just so happen' to correspond to Primaris loadouts.

 

 

... just don't do that then 

And with Legends units being far cooler than the new stuff you don't have to.

 

In fact, if you want, use Mk10 dudes as Tacticals because they're cooler that way; add a couple of special and/or heavy guns from Heavy Intercessor, Infernus, Hellblaster or Eradicator Squads and you are winning with up-scaled OG's.

[Dr. Clock]

15 hours ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

In fact, if you want, use Mk10 dudes as Tacticals because they're cooler that way; add a couple of special and/or heavy guns from Heavy Intercessor, Infernus, Hellblaster or Eradicator Squads and you are winning with up-scaled OG's.

Absolutely!

 

It's kind of strange to think that with this change, effectively the gloves are even further off in terms of which marine sculpts to use for which 'game units'. Until now there's been strong in-game differentiation of Primaris units and non-, but now it feels like people will be more accepting of using any given marine for more than just one potential datacard, depending on how you feel about the Legends label and the kind of army/game you want to have that day...

 

Watch the Sternguard solo box / unit have another heavy weapon option or two and all of a sudden you've got a 'Pride of the Legion' situation (i.e. in Heresy there is a way to take special + heavy in 'veteran tacticals', and a specific Rite of War to make them Troops; this was the best way to build armies for both 40k and Heresy back in 7th...).

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[MegaVolt87]

On 7/31/2023 at 6:56 AM, Interrogator Stobz said:

^^^This.

GeeDub need to erode the popularity of Tacticals in order to send them to Legends, be it in 11th, 12th or whenever.

Eventually they will have no other purely OG units (LRs and TDA are obviously staying forever) and the infantry will follow the vehicles. 

 

On the bright side, once all our OG units are in Legends we won't need to buy a Codex. 

Its already getting more interesting than the index.....

 

....Winning.

 

I'm not confident in the legends system since we saw losses in units going from 9th to 10th. Say tac squad go to legends in 11th, what's the guarantee they will be rolled over into 12th? Legends seems like it's just there for PR reasons. 

[Interrogator Stobz]

I'm totally confident OGs will be removed forever. I have printed all the OG index and legends units into a nice booklet, it will do nicely as a Codex for now.

My playing pure 40k days are numbered and I'm at peace with that.

 

Especially since every time 40k gets worse the local OPR community gets stronger.

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Interrogator Stobz
Sp.