The End and the Death Part I, II, III, ...

[Marshal Rohr]

Nvm

Edited July 7 by Marshal Rohr

[wecanhaveallthree]

Has enough time passed that we can now discuss whether Samus being Loken was an incredible masterstroke of foreshadowing by DABNT or just sloppy book-ending?

 

Cos' I wanna talk about that.

[DarkChaplain]

I'll have to tolerate it if this makes it a closed loop and we're finally rid of Samus now that it's all told. I'll be livid if Dan brings him back into the spotlight in Pandaemonium, though.

[lansalt]

Given what Pandemonium means, featuring all sort of Abnett's pet characters is not out of the question. I can't help but think that Erda's death in the Siege happened off screen after a couple references to unreliable memories, so I wouldn't be surprised if she appears again as part of whatever insane plot is behind what we saw in Pariah.

[Roomsky]

 

Has enough time passed that we can now discuss whether Samus being Loken was an incredible masterstroke of foreshadowing by DABNT or just sloppy book-ending?

 

Cos' I wanna talk about that.

 

Did my merry best to look past my knee-jerk reaction of "this is dumb;" here's what I came up with:

 

Torgaddon, also of the Mournival, was killed dramatically by Aximand. Erebus twisted his soul into a daemon, kind of. Simultaneously, Torgaddon became "the man beside you" to Loken, haunting him until he got what he wanted.

 

Loken himself became "the man beside you" to Aximand, despite Loken not even being dead or being aware it was happening. IMO this is somewhat distinguished from just being astartes-PTSD, because if it was, Aximand should be haunted by Torgaddon if he's haunted by anyone. 

 

So we already have Erebus' involvement in turning a loyalist Mournival member into a daemon (which itself was the second time he perverted the image of a Mournival-marine if we count his taking Sejanus' shape in False Gods,) and we have 2 instances of Mournival-marines haunting other Sons of Horus by accident. So I guess you could say there's some foreshadowing that Samus is the daemon of Horus-induced fratricide or of the Sons of Horus themselves.

 

All that said, I still don't think it really works because:

1. Loken has seen Erebus as an enemy almost since he met him, so the element of fraternal betrayal present in the previous cases didn't happen there. 

2. Why would the daemon go back in time to effectively haunt itself instead of proceeding forward, unless Torgaddon's shade and Aximand's Loken are both Samus going back in time also.

3. If Erebus is going to do a ritual with Loken's body to make 1 and 2 happen, why would he kill Loken in front of Abaddon and smugly mouth off to him about it; anyone with a brain can see that's unecessarely risking his own death and therefor all of this not looping at all. He could have just let him get killed by the Justaerin or knifed him after he parted ways with Abaddon and done his work then.

 

If we are very cheritable and say Abnett actually intended this for a while, it needed to be Abaddon who kills Loken (fraternal betrayal.) Then, in a stinger, Erebus privately recovers Loken's body and does his Chaos-ritual to make him Samus. That would make it at least semi-consistent with the "foreshadowing."

 

Ultimately, as someone who liked the Oliton plotline in Solar War, that book was a far better ending for Samus than Abnett gave us in TEatD. He's there at the start of the Heresy and at the start of the Siege, he embodies "innocence proves nothing," he does significant damage to the loyalist effort and thereby twists the knife for Loken (he literally brought him to where he could do the most damage) far more than monologuing at him did, and killing him costs Loken another friend. Samus' real connection to Loken is that they both should have died earlier in the series.

[Karhedron]

 

Given what Pandemonium means, featuring all sort of Abnett's pet characters is not out of the question. I can't help but think that Erda's death in the Siege happened off screen after a couple references to unreliable memories, so I wouldn't be surprised if she appears again as part of whatever insane plot is behind what we saw in Pariah.

 

I would not put it past Abnett to bring back a few old faces in Pandemonium but I am not expecting Erda again. A significant part of the HH/Siege series seemed to be explaining why there were no Perpetuals left by the 41st millennium so having her pop up again would undermine that premise. Also Erda seemed more interested in free will as a balance point between the Emperor's rigid order and the chaos of the Big 4. I would be surprised to see her involved in the Yellow King's plot.

 

My hunch is that Alpharius really is Alpharius this time (or at least Omegon). We are so used to hearing Alpha Legionaires spouting "I am Alpharius" at this point that we hardly notice when they do. The neat twist would be if it was true this time. It would also explain the apparent ease with which Deathrow/Alpharius dispatched Teke, a fully armoured champion of Slaanesh despite being out of power armour himself.

[lansalt]

 

My hunch is that Alpharius really is Alpharius this time (or at least Omegon)

The recent AL books also have hints about him being around. AL marines certainly do not think he was killed by Guilliman, his spear has been recovered, and Exodus is alive in 40k and being suddenly recalled from his assigment.

[grailkeeper]

Dan Abnett indicated on Facebook that he'll be at the Maidstone literary festival tomorrow talking about this book.

[wecanhaveallthree]

>Samus' real connection to Loken is that they both should have died earlier in the series.

 

man_wiping_sweat_with_multiple_towels.jpg

 

I really regret not catching this one earlier because it's great. My immediate off-the-cuff is that Samus is 'haunting' Aximand because Aximand was positioned - until Little Horus' very end - as someone who was still fighting 'from within' against the corruption of the Legion and, particularly, of Horus. I don't think there's any mistake that Horus is still sitting down and playing board games with Aximand, the most level-headed and responsible of the remaining Sons of Horus (Maloghurst being groomed into delivering the knife circa Slaves of Darkness, so he doesn't count). Aximand is the 'melancholy' aspect of the Mournival, the nostalgia, the caution, the tie to the past. Aximand is driven into the ambush and 'loses face' (heh heh heh heh heh) - the cutting of his Mournival mark and 'he only ever looked angry' and 'after they put it back on he looked more like Horus than ever' is the destruction of Horus' final chair leg, so to speak. Aximand is converted. His purpose is perverted. The whole short until the end leans right into 'I am the guy who is gonna open the way to Horus'. Aximand fighting against his nature, denying it, but the narrative being clear that he would succumb to it in the end - that he could never truly be bent to dark ends as he was.

 

If you're seeing some parallels between 'Little Horus could never be completely corrupted until we literally cut his face off' and 'Horus could never be completely corrupted until we jack him with an athame', I think that's good foreshadowing. Both have their 'weakness', for lack of a better term, 'cut away'. 

 

I didn't twig to it until now, but Aximand is mistaking Samus for Loken (or Samus is quite literally appearing as Loken), and Samus is assuring the corruption of Horus. Aximand is betrayed, as he betrayed, making the circle complete. I feel like a huge dummy because all the ways 'Loken' is described in Little Horus are the ways Samus is described, just without the talkativeness. And it gives Aximand's 'vision' a cruel clarity: Loken is, indeed, dead. It's something else wearing his skin. 

[Roomsky]

Oh God did Abnett actually plan this.

 

The fact that there is actually something interesting about that reveal (assuming we aren't giving Abnett too much credit) kind of shocks me. It seems so slap-dash when you read TeaTD by itself and yet... well, it's my headcanon either way, now.

 

Also, if intentional, another unfortunate casualty of the series' ludicrous bloat.

[Nagashsnee]

Fun theory, but I remain unconvinced. It seems far more likely that Abnett had plans that never got to the page, but decided to press ahead with his chosen ending anyhow. 

 

Tho I agree they are both characters who should have stayed dead. Samus got banished so often in the hh, him popping up become more of a joke then any kind of threat.

 

 

 

Edited October 19 by Nagashsnee

[wecanhaveallthree]

I'll need to workshop it a bit more, but the more I think on it, the more solid it becomes. Roomsky really provided the 'special sauce' here, though.

 

Samus ties right into the Luna Wolves mythos and Cthonia gang culture. The mythos of the Furies is entwined deeply with the Wolves, and the Furies have always punished oathbreakers and kinslayers (and, most specifically, murder). They've always been likened to living curses, and they're literally written into the Wolves blood - Qruze's sword bears their name, Vengeful Spirit is their best descriptor, etc. They were known for driving men to madness: look at what happens to Aximand, naturally, and Loken as well with Cerberus, but perhaps more potently look what happens to Horus post-Vengeful Spirit, and particularly post-Wolfsbane. Horus suffers massively after Vengeful Spirit - nothing goes his way. He takes blow after blow and he's effectively useless until TEATD... or perhaps more pointedly, the death of Erda. 

 

'Wechat,' you raise your hands, pleading in your voice, fear in your heart. 'Wechat, calm down. You can't seriously be suggesting that Erda, little Erda, randomly-dropped Erda, was the incarnation of one of the Furies, and Erebus killing her is what released Horus from the 'curse' and enabled him to seize full power and lucidity at The End and The Death?'

 

BUT I AM. I am. Erda's nature power, her rejection of Erebus' theories, her distinct separation from known psychic schools and the unique flavour of her 'magic' - even her name means 'earth' or 'soil'.

 

'Come now,' you might reply. 'Next thing you'll be saying is, after Ashes of Prospero, that Erda is Terra's world spirit. And that-'

 

You stop. You freeze. You see what is becoming.

 

'No. No, that can't make any sense. But... but that explains why the Emperor let her live, even set a guard on her. And it explains why the Siege starts going completely screwy timey-wimey once she dies.'

 

Yes. YES. You see it now, don't you? Cthonia. Erda. Qruze's Oath of Moment. The living curse. The mythic aspect. YOU SEE IT NOW, JUST AS I DO. Daemons are curses. Samus is Loken's dying curse. They speak the same words, in the same voice. 

[darkhorse0607]

[DarkChaplain]

You know, this might be cool, if any of it was actually brought across on the page, rather than after a lot of trying to make it work out and make sense because what was put to paper was just so dissatisfying without heavy theorycrafting.

[wecanhaveallthree]

I've slept on it and I think the issue isn't so much that it wasn't 'brought across on the page' but rather that the intentionality of the sub-plot was never given weight by the readership/fanbase. It's without argument that it wasn't satisfying, but it all exists within the text.

 

The core issue I'm seeing is that it's been seeded since the start but we never really put it together because it came in such disparate drips. Erebus has, since the start, been the guy making sure things happen. Who's whispering poison in Lorgar's ear? Erebus. Who destroys Horus' dream of being Peacemaster? Erebus. Who jacks the athame, gives it to Temba, then winds Horus up to go get ganked by it? Erebus. Who's behind the Serpent Lodge (and I'd note that snakes are a motif of the Furies, too!)? Erebus. Who's one of the planners of Istvaan? Erebus. Who got the Ruinstorm going? Erebus. Erebus set up Rubio. Erebus ensures Argel Tal isn't there to deal with Khârn (and, ultimately, Angron). Erebus' plans for Sanguinius get wrecked by Horus, but he follows up by ensuring that Grammaticus gets the fulgurite to kill Vulkan (he gets better... or does he???). Erebus gets the Traitors to Terra. Erebus kills Erda. Erebus jacks the Long Companions. Erebus kills Loken. 

 

But, crucially, nothing Erebus ever does is really portrayed as a 'big deal'. The fandom still sees him as kind of a brat and a loser, when he's arguably Chaos' most useful piece in the Heresy. Everything Erebus is involved in has mythic significance, it has weight and dark promise that never seems to actually get 'hype'. I think Erebus' confrontation with Erda is supposed to genuinely be a very important moment, Erda is supposed to be very important and the level of power she shows - and the level of power required to take her down, and the immediate consequences following her death - suggests this is a moment of mythic significance.

 

It didn't feel that way except looking back on it, divorced from the frustration of the moment. Objectively, in full context, Erebus has worked 'behind the scenes' to secure the culmination of events. Erebus was already looking beyond the Siege, already looking at Abaddon as Warmaster-in-waiting - and that's why he's there at the end, to 'cut away' Abaddon's 'weakness'. Just as Samus (Loken) did to Aximand, as Maloghurst did to Horus. I absolutely hated it during TEATD, but Abaddon's thoughts, his landers turning back to Luna Wolves colours, all foreshadow that he's drawing away - that he could, for lack of a better term, be 'saved' by Loken's persistence and brotherhood. And once again Erebus steps in, as he did with Argel Tal, and closes the circle of brotherhood and betrayal. Abaddon's hesitation, his inaction, kills Loken. He sent Aximand to die in Saturnine. He ambushed Torgaddon and Loken on Istvaan and broke that oath, causing the former's death. Of course he gets Loken's death-curse here. 

 

TL;DR Erebus is the MVP of the Heresy and every action he took had enormous significance that was there on the page, but never accorded real weight by the fandom. Looking at the intentionality and consequence rather than the reception bears this out, I think. 

[Roomsky]

I mean, the series was ultimately just too decompressed for that to ever come across effectively. The moment Erebus is present enough in 60+ books for him to be a shadow over the whole thing is also well past the moment where it becomes comical how many pies he has his finger in. Can you imagine if Erebus was behind, like, every other novel? It would be impossible to take seriously.

 

One thing I'll give Swallow is that he, along with McNeill, seemed to be on the same page as Abnett as far as plot development is concerned. Typhus and Erebus often being "those two guys" was an effective way to keep him a sinister presence even when he didn't feature, I thought. I'll give Abnett some credit, even if this wasn't planned from the start I like the idea, but the Heresy needed to be Gaunt's Ghosts if it was every going to work when all was said and done. Too many cooks, too many books. We're literally at the point where any but the most basic attempt at describing running threads make you sound like Charlie Day in darkhorse's image, even if in a shorter series it would be pretty normal.

[wecanhaveallthree]

It's so FRUSTRATING because I can FEEL the shape of a reasonably acceptable Grand Unifying Theory here. These threads do connect, they're evidenced, but it's so difficult to pull them together into a coherent, digestible, presentable format. I've got the mythic edges of the puzzle, but I've also got bits of sky, a hoof and some pieces that are just plain, blank white squares. And I'm sure it's all tied back to Horus, Cthonia and the Furies. Hell, Chaos could be the Furies in this situation, punishing the Emperor's 'oath-breaking'.

 

But for everything 'planned' I think I'd almost put money on 'the Emperor bargained with Chaos' being the original plan. It's just too deeply woven into the narrative, it's just too appetising a plot point to be hand-waved at the very end with 'nah he can just take power from the Warp whenever he wants'. So why Molech? Why take four Primarchs there later? Why the naming conventions? Why anything? I find like the narrative just sloughed off circa Wolfsbane. Wolfsbane goes Full Mythic. Russ goes on a freakin' vision quest. The whole book is drenched in allegory, metaphor and significance. It's even got Cawl in it. And it says, front and centre, 'Leman Russ, who is generally a good dude and, here particularly, is presented as a reasonably guy, finds out The Truth and will ultimately leave the Imperium because of it'. We've got world spirits, we've got several Russes running about, we've got prophecy, we've got Horus getting slapped in the face with revelation Just As Planned and going full 'what have I done' -- and then that whole plotline, everything about it, just dies in Slaves to Darkness. Great book, but totally, completely at narrative cross-purposes with the events of Wolfsbane. A book that, again, rewrites the Wolves/Sons of Horus, gives Aximand nominal command of the Legion and then gives him five lines through the entire thing. Then it's walked back again by Solar War, with the Emperor being like 'lmao there is no Horus, my beef is with the gods', and that INCREDIBLY SUSPICIOUS scene with the Emperor and Malcador completely reversed. 

 

There's just so many contradictions and swerves and competing ideas, and not just 'author interpretation' but literal warring ideologies. It makes my head hurt.

 

I miss the days when FAKE HORUS??? was the craziest thing I had to worry about. 

[Scribe]

What could have been...

[Nagashsnee]

On 10/20/2024 at 3:05 AM, wecanhaveallthree said:

 

 

But, crucially, nothing Erebus ever does is really portrayed as a 'big deal'. The fandom still sees him as kind of a brat and a loser, when he's arguably Chaos' most useful piece in the Heresy. 

 

It didn't feel that way except looking back on it, divorced from the frustration of the moment. Objectively, in full context, Erebus has worked 'behind the scenes' to secure the culmination of events. Erebus was already looking beyond the Siege, already looking at Abaddon as Warmaster-in-waiting - and that's why he's there at the end, to 'cut away' Abaddon's 'weakness'. Just as Samus (Loken) did to Aximand, as Maloghurst did to Horus. I absolutely hated it during TEATD, but Abaddon's thoughts, his landers turning back to Luna Wolves colours, all foreshadow that he's drawing away - that he could, for lack of a better term, be 'saved' by Loken's persistence and brotherhood. And once again Erebus steps in, as he did with Argel Tal, and closes the circle of brotherhood and betrayal. Abaddon's hesitation, his inaction, kills Loken. He sent Aximand to die in Saturnine. He ambushed Torgaddon and Loken on Istvaan and broke that oath, causing the former's death. Of course he gets Loken's death-curse here. 

 

TL;DR Erebus is the MVP of the Heresy and every action he took had enormous significance that was there on the page, but never accorded real weight by the fandom. Looking at the intentionality and consequence rather than the reception bears this out, I think. 

Erebus is not taken seriously because most of what he does is  a forgone conclusion and many times poorly written.

 

Horus fall to chaos happened to fast, too easily and with such ease it does not cause the reader to think 'damn erebus is a pro at this corruption game'. It causes the reader to look back in the book because SURELY he must have skipped some pages or something, that cant be it, no way.  Its the star wars Anakin is a Jedi and 35 mins latter he is killing rooms full of children problem.  

 

Likewise Lokens death. What you wrote would be great if for a nano second anyone had a slither of actual hope for a redemption for ANYONE on the chaos side of the siege. But here is the thing, character POV=Loken hopes so cause he is a idiot. Like full blown cute puppy syndrome. But reader POV = Bolter to the head for each and every last one of them.  Erebus popping up and doing anything to prevent an impossibility does not give him weight. He could have shown up and launched a 14 page speech about how Loken is right and they need to find a path of redemption IT WONT CHANGE ANYTHING. The traitors are done, corrupt, guilty of crimes and actions that all the Loken speeches in the universe cant change. The only 2 people in existence (Malcador and the Emperor) who might even consider it are gone, and pretending Dorn, Russ, Guiliman or anyone else in the solar system is not going to connect chainsword to skull is just silly. 

 

With the exemption of ADB Erebus did things that the plot needed to happen, when the plot needed them to happen.  Often in ways and speeds that were detrimental to any attempt of epic significance to his actions.  He was a get out of jail free card for the HH authors to do what they needed to do to advance the plot, or tie up loose ends. Erda is a perfect example of a half backed idea, introduced too late to the game, and having too much power/potential to ignore.  So what do you do with the super important, super powerful character that appeared 1 book ago and can potentially upset the entire settings meta plot? Do you A) Stick to the 'plan' this character MUST have after all those SIege of terra author meetings (hahahahhahaha)? 2) Use them to explore aspects of the lore that maybe have been ignored up to now,proving that her inclusion has meaning other then the author wanted it? 3) Have erebus jump her and thru the power of plot, win and kill her without doing anything that would make him Erebus seem more significant, making her more or less a waste of pages, and simply adding contradictions to previous lore?  

 

Erebus mostly was used to solve AUTHOR problems, not character problems, and its hard to give the character weight for it. Sure you can go the Pepe Sylva and try and draw some epic connection for allot of the heresy. But the truth is most of it is just BL and co not planning things out, making it up as they go along, and then some desperate attempts to bring it all together at the end, and even then the End and the Death (all Vols) came at 1 second to midnight and followed the grand HH tradition of just doing what you want in your book one last time. 

On 10/20/2024 at 5:14 AM, wecanhaveallthree said:

It's so FRUSTRATING because I can FEEL the shape of a reasonably acceptable Grand Unifying Theory here. These threads do connect, they're evidenced, but it's so difficult to pull them together into a coherent, digestible, presentable format. I've got the mythic edges of the puzzle, but I've also got bits of sky, a hoof and some pieces that are just plain, blank white squares. And I'm sure it's all tied back to Horus, Cthonia and the Furies. Hell, Chaos could be the Furies in this situation, punishing the Emperor's 'oath-breaking'.

Its almost like your trying to find the final clues that will finally prove that BL was in fact a efficient, well run, highly organized story telling machine, which wove a intracate, highly  supervised tale of Machiavellian complexity over which fans and scholar will pore over for decades finding all the masterfully crafted hidden clues and subtext, 

 

Instead of you know, still mostly a bunch of just dudes who love the hobby doing what they can story wise, but mostly just trying to run the ship in a way that pleases the suits, themselves, the authors and lets the Nick Kymes (never forget never forgive) of the world fund his latest vacation with some near guaranteed sales. 

 

They did what they could, but the HH is a mix of like 2 different management teams, a dozen authors, 3  story visions and 5 'grand plans'.   And as soon as the scouring hits it will subjected to half a dozen re visions and retcons. 

[Dornfist]

On 10/19/2024 at 10:14 PM, wecanhaveallthree said:

It's so FRUSTRATING because I can FEEL the shape of a reasonably acceptable Grand Unifying Theory here. These threads do connect, they're evidenced, but it's so difficult to pull them together into a coherent, digestible, presentable format. I've got the mythic edges of the puzzle, but I've also got bits of sky, a hoof and some pieces that are just plain, blank white squares. And I'm sure it's all tied back to Horus, Cthonia and the Furies. Hell, Chaos could be the Furies in this situation, punishing the Emperor's 'oath-breaking'.

 

But for everything 'planned' I think I'd almost put money on 'the Emperor bargained with Chaos' being the original plan. It's just too deeply woven into the narrative, it's just too appetising a plot point to be hand-waved at the very end with 'nah he can just take power from the Warp whenever he wants'. So why Molech? Why take four Primarchs there later? Why the naming conventions? Why anything? I find like the narrative just sloughed off circa Wolfsbane. Wolfsbane goes Full Mythic. Russ goes on a freakin' vision quest. The whole book is drenched in allegory, metaphor and significance. It's even got Cawl in it. And it says, front and centre, 'Leman Russ, who is generally a good dude and, here particularly, is presented as a reasonably guy, finds out The Truth and will ultimately leave the Imperium because of it'. We've got world spirits, we've got several Russes running about, we've got prophecy, we've got Horus getting slapped in the face with revelation Just As Planned and going full 'what have I done' -- and then that whole plotline, everything about it, just dies in Slaves to Darkness. Great book, but totally, completely at narrative cross-purposes with the events of Wolfsbane. A book that, again, rewrites the Wolves/Sons of Horus, gives Aximand nominal command of the Legion and then gives him five lines through the entire thing. Then it's walked back again by Solar War, with the Emperor being like 'lmao there is no Horus, my beef is with the gods', and that INCREDIBLY SUSPICIOUS scene with the Emperor and Malcador completely reversed. 

 

There's just so many contradictions and swerves and competing ideas, and not just 'author interpretation' but literal warring ideologies. It makes my head hurt.

 

I miss the days when FAKE HORUS??? was the craziest thing I had to worry about. 

I have to say WeChat, you have something very compelling going on here: am scratching my head a lot now! I also like your headacnon @Roomsky!! I'm actually reading End and the Death with a friend (we are on volume 3 and going through a specific reading plan) partly to show him how Samus was ruined. I'd like to think there was something deeper going on. But like you said WeChat, conflicting ideologies and lack of consistency is what happens when we have too many cooks in the kitchen. I really hope they do better for the Scouring series...

 

I do also take your points too @Nagashsnee: valid stuff especially the organization of BL.

 

Speaking of Fake Horus, we got any news on when that primarch novel is coming out? I'd be surprised if we hear nothing before New Year's.

Edited October 23 by Dornfist

[DukeLeto69]

The Horus Primarch novel manuscript is in the same filing cabinet as Black Legion 3, Watchers of the Throne 3, Bloodlines 2, Flesh and Blood 2, Pandaemonium, WH Horror pitches, Peter Fehervari pitches, and Josh Reynolds pitches.

 

To reach the cabinet you need to enter the labyrinth and combat the various monsters and Daemons with evocative names such as the Bean Counter, the Studio Aligner, the Lost Editor, the Refocussing Efforter, the Missing Marketer, the Story Forge Master and the most hideous of all with the innocuous name of James Workshop who actually has a special skill on all dice rolls called “ignore what your fans want”!

Edited October 23 by DukeLeto69

[System Sound]

5 hours ago, DukeLeto69 said:

The Horus Primarch novel manuscript is in the same filing cabinet as Black Legion 3, Watchers of the Throne 3, Bloodlines 2, Flesh and Blood 2, Pandaemonium, WH Horror pitches, Peter Fehervari pitches, and Josh Reynolds pitches.

 

To reach the cabinet you need to enter the labyrinth and combat the various monsters and Daemons with evocative names such as the Bean Counter, the Studio Aligner, the Lost Editor, the Refocussing Efforter, the Missing Marketer, the Story Forge Master and the most hideous of all with the innocuous name of James Workshop who actually has a special skill on all dice rolls called “ignore what your fans want”!

And even if you do find the cabinet, it's a mimic, called Nickus Kymus the Typo.

[Dornfist]

12 hours ago, DukeLeto69 said:

The Horus Primarch novel manuscript is in the same filing cabinet as Black Legion 3, Watchers of the Throne 3, Bloodlines 2, Flesh and Blood 2, Pandaemonium, WH Horror pitches, Peter Fehervari pitches, and Josh Reynolds pitches.

 

To reach the cabinet you need to enter the labyrinth and combat the various monsters and Daemons with evocative names such as the Bean Counter, the Studio Aligner, the Lost Editor, the Refocussing Efforter, the Missing Marketer, the Story Forge Master and the most hideous of all with the innocuous name of James Workshop who actually has a special skill on all dice rolls called “ignore what your fans want”!

Lest we forget this fella who will demand our library card!

[Krelious]

On 10/18/2024 at 8:45 PM, Roomsky said:

Oh God did Abnett actually plan this.

 

The fact that there is actually something interesting about that reveal (assuming we aren't giving Abnett too much credit) kind of shocks me. It seems so slap-dash when you read TeaTD by itself and yet... well, it's my headcanon either way, now.

 

Also, if intentional, another unfortunate casualty of the series' ludicrous bloat.

I'm of the opinion that Abnett is either a massive troll or he's full on delusional because from reading the afterward in Vol 3 he directly says that making TEATD that long was solely his idea because thats what he felt was necessary which comes off as :cuss:ing insane. I mean I sat down and chunked through those books rather quickly in August but now I just dont really remember much at all. To me I think the siege novels should have been TLATD, Warhawk, Echoes, and TEATD, the novellas and maybe bits of Saturnine should have been in a short story compilation released midway. 

Both of French's books were so boring I skipped them around 150 pages in. I didnt read the first novella, whatever its called. 

 

To me I feel like its a joke that it took like 5 years to finish the siege, I mean can you imagine any other series where one :cuss:ing battle takes 5 years of writing to finish and the final book in the series is 3 volumes and 2k+ pages long. I mean surely I feel like the people at GW and Black Library were just mocking the fans at that point. I'd like to imagine in another universe where things didnt go full on retarded the horus heresy and siege should have been finished by 2016.

 

 

[Nagashsnee]

36 minutes ago, Krelious said:

To me I feel like its a joke that it took like 5 years to finish the siege, I mean can you imagine any other series where one :cuss:ing battle takes 5 years of writing to finish and the final book in the series is 3 volumes and 2k+ pages long. I mean surely I feel like the people at GW and Black Library were just mocking the fans at that point. I'd like to imagine in another universe where things didnt go full on retarded the horus heresy and siege should have been finished by 2016.

 

Unfortunately yes i can.  The fact is the main factor behind most major decisions is money. Look at the mid heresy clusterchuckle of LE and anthologies to see where that path leads to it extremity. 

 

Each siege book has to be released between 1 and 5 times. Namely LE, ebook, Audio. Hard and soft backs. The best way to maximise money is to create FOMO and get your customers to buy the more expensive versions. So you cut the softback out. You have the LE and ebook and hardbacks left (audio is very much its own thing). These are where the big profit margin are. But you also dont want to get to the next book to fast as that might lose sales from people who cant afford/refuse and are waiting for the soft cover. So you need to space things out. Say 3-6 months. So you have 8 books...sorry 9 books....sorry 10?!? books in your 8 book series. Say best case 6 months between each book you are still looking at 2 books a year that's 4...wait 4,5,,,wait 5 years for your 8-10 book series years. 

 

Now add in the fact that we know the decision for book 10 at least was pretty last min, as we have the LEs book 8 claiming IN PRINT that book 9 will be the conclusion. So you gotta factor in a certain degree of chaos on the publishing side. 

 

And i dont blame them for most of it, making BL max profits is some peoples actual full time jobs and they made logical decisions without going too cutthroat (say softbacks released after the series ended or ebooks and softbacks released together months after hardback only day 1).  Likewise i dont think the people in charge of printing and shipping and marketing where any more impressed by ending up with 10 books in the 8 book series any more then i was.  

 

I do 100% agree that a team of professional authors and editors being unable to story board the when you get down to it simple story of the siege of terra to any degree of accurate effect is perplexing. But again the line between authorial freedom and pre determined plot can be tricky. Not 2 extra books tricky, that is simply cashgrab and/or ineptitude,  But no one ever forced them to state the number of books, no one ever forced them to go on and on about how they HAVE TOTALLY planned it in all these meetings. No one forced them to what in hindsight is the far too accurate tittle of high lords of terra. Having read other multi author series for major companies i will say having a central story/editor be in complete control of the plot also has its issues. And which of the two is better does come down to personal preference allot of the time. 

 

While i have never actually reviewed TeatD Vol III, for the siege as a whole i will say it was far better then i feared, and i know many of us had expectations of a end product that BL may simply be unable of meeting in its current model of business.  Cause some fans do forget, it IS a business.  And like many business will priorities high immediate profits and results over possible long term benefits that may never happen, or even worse, making the fanbase happy. Its why i am so suprised they did not put out way more Siege novellas and anthologies. That for me is the real mystery. Which dark force of near ultimate power could get between Nick Kyme and a Siege of terra Salamander novella/short story?