The End and the Death Part I, II, III, ...

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, Vassakov said:

Chaos and the Warp are seeping into the very bones of the Palace... and the Palace, for all intents and purposes falls. From within. The traitor host is quite literally coming out of the walls, and only really the Throne room remains unviolated

 

Reminds me of a plot point from Echoes; daemons were materializing inside the Sanctum and killing a bunch of the refugees who managed to make it, necessitating the eternity gate defenders to fall back from the delphic battlement and close the eternity gate.

 

This whole event disappears with no explanation as soon as abnett takes command, which is narratively right after Amit et al get in. Glad to know he just tossed it out so he could reimplement it his way.

[lansalt]

17 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Reminds me of a plot point from Echoes; daemons were materializing inside the Sanctum and killing a bunch of the refugees who managed to make it, necessitating the eternity gate defenders to fall back from the delphic battlement and close the eternity gate.

 

This whole event disappears with no explanation as soon as abnett takes command, which is narratively right after Amit et al get in. Glad to know he just tossed it out so he could reimplement it his way.

I think that crisis was resolved at the same time when Vulkan bonks Magnus, ending his psychic attack that weakened the Emperor's aegis against daemons.

[Nagashsnee]

People hear me out.

The whole dark king, power of a god that warps reality, the past, present and future and shapes them to his will is simply a written representation of what Dan went thru to write the last 3 novels.

 

Assumed the powers of a god, i.e. write whatever he wants, however he wants, and in the quantity he wants.

Warped the reality of the story, be it character traits, representation or action.

 

Mess with the past (facts established by previous books), present literally having character just go/do whatever he wants. Loken on the spirit? Say no more fam a door just appears! And future, well this one is easy, he is literally writing the lore that  for better or worse will define the future representation of the creation myth of 40k.

 

Horus represents the side of Dan that wants to just Dan all over it, twist it until it is an unrecognizable but well written version of events which he finds perfect.

 

The Emperor represents the Dan who knows he should curtail his worse habits and at least try to give the fans a version the majority can rally around and remains respectful of the old lore. He is tempted by the powers of the Dark king but struggles with their consequences.

 

The companions are of course the BL editing team, a group who seem very important, people keep telling us are very important, but when you look back at it all, don’t seem to have done/achieved much and are full of lies (8 books my ass)

And the spoiler version of the duel between Horus and the Angel shows these two sides trying to co exist but feeding both the twisty and the traditional side.

 

Book 3 is the finale not just of the story of the Siege/Heresy but the internal struggle of the author who is at war with himself.

 

Or not and I just need to rest after a very fun weekend .

Edited October 30, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[Vassakov]

12 hours ago, StrangerOrders said:

The most perplexing part of that write up:

 

  Hide contents

Its great of the Emperor to give up power and all of that but.... isn't being an arrogant son of an expletive the entire point of his character? I am really interested how on earth that is executed on to make it remotely believable. If the man was actually possible to talk down then didn't Erda try that before tossing 20 demigods into the fing warp?!?!

 

I had assumed it was supposed to be literally impossible to reason with him for giving the pantheon twenty godlings to be the preferable option... And Abnett was the one that brought both of these lines of reasoning into existence in the first place!

 

Still, it sounds like a fantastic 150 page novella! Really excited to hear what happens on the other 600 pages and entire subsequent book that were clearly necessary! 

 

Spoiler

So my personal view is that this part of the book does actually work, but it's essentially 2-3 Chapters and a theological discussion on the nature of power and the price of victory. There's also an extended discussion around the Emperor's tendency to make decisions that he believes to be best in the moment (treatment of the Primarchs, hiding the true nature of the Warp etc.) that have short term benefits but catastrophic long term ramifications. Essentially, assuming this level of power would be another short term win for a long term loss and it's strongly implied that being on the cusp of ascendency gives Him the clarity of vision to see how He'd been going wrong. 

 

Again, personally I think it works but all of this is very much my type of novel and storytelling, and I appreciate that others may take a different view. I would however urge people to actually read it, rather than relying on out-of-context synopsis' online.

 

I'd also say that it's very much not "the power of friendship" that prompts this - with Malcador on the Throne and essentially dead, the Emperor recognises the need for a new confidante/advisor and basically selects Ollanius to do this precisely because they disagree and whilst Ollanius is terrified of the Emperor, he's never let that fear prevent him from challenging him and He begrudgingly respects that. Also the fact that Malcador appears to be tacitly supporting this by sending Loken to help, and that Loken has proved his loyalty by choice, holds weight with the Emperor.

 

[DukeLeto69]

I think I QUITE like some of what I am reading in these spoilers BUT...

 

THREE NOVELS!!!!!!

 

Was that really necessary to tell THIS story and provide final insight into THOSE plot threads?

 

I have set myself a mammoth task as I intend to read the SoT novels by Wraight-ADB-Abnett-Abbett-Abnett back-to-back.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well guys, i reread the kindly provided details and I came to a rather significant conclusion:

 

Spoiler

This book confirms that loken is the most powerful psyker ever. Not only does he cast Gate on the entirety of terra to allow everyone to teleport, his powers play an even more critical role:

 

That power up the emperor gets? Loken is on the vengeful spirit and decides to share some. When he realizes the Emperor's new plot point is going to overshadow his as a newly emergent psyker, he takes it back, saving humanity.

 

I did another reread of Horus Rising, and it's the foreshadowing was there at the start: 

 

"I was there the day I cast Gate to get to the Vengeful Spirit and the Emperor turned into a warp God but then turned back and then Horus killed the Emperor but then the Emperor killed Horus and I cast Gate again to bring everyone back to Terra".

 

How didn't we connect the dots back then?

 

[wecanhaveallthree]

Spoiler

>theological discussion on the nature of power and the price of victory.

 

Frankly, I think this is what frustrates me the most about this whole plot.

 

The Emperor's whole shtick has been 'avoid joining the Great Game'. He steals fire from the gods when they believe he's come to join them. He oppresses 'faith', especially in his person, because he's aware of what it leads to. He's consistently undercut this view of himself, and that's one of the fundamental pillars of 40K, to my mind: the Emperor as an unwilling divinity, suspended between real and unreal and in constant agony because of humanity's desperate belief. The literal Corpse-Emperor whose crumbling empire has subverted everything he tried to build, right down to perverting the man himself into something he put every effort into not becoming. This goes against basically everything everyone in the setting has tried or warned him about. The Eldar pantheon were a bulwark of sorts against Chaos. The Watchers in the Dark have told him 'yo your approach is bogus dude'. The Cabal obviously want him gone. The Emperor, for better or worse, is trying something new (or old, depending on how you feel about new Necron guff talking about how they zipped up the galaxy with their pylon network previously) - and it's that hubris, that arrogance, that self-confident belief in His Way that makes the character so dynamic and, ultimately, so tragic.

 

To then turn around and, without ceremony, have the Emperor simply decide 'nah I'll just become a god lol' - compromising everything up until this point, ignoring the Talisman of Seven Hammers, ignoring Outcast Dead - and then simply decide 'actually nah I'll just not be a god' is so... Marvel? It has that smell of Marvel's cosmology to it, its Phoenix Forces and cosmic power-ups that appear and disappear as needed for the story. Everything we know of the Emperor says he'd rather die than do the apotheosis thing, and everything we know of the Emperor says he will essentially never compromise or divert from the path he's chosen. To have him both decide to embrace divinity (at the cost of the species that has been his entire focus) and then discard that divinity because a guy who stabbed him in the back (well, the front) the last time there was power on the table they disagreed on the use of... is... what?

 

What is the point of this? It adds nothing to the story. One can simply say 'the Emperor is really pissed off and as the immaterium encroaches, he becomes even more powerful' (y'know, just like Psychic Awakening!) and that is a perfectly valid and easy explanation for whatever feats of strength you want from him. Why do we have this sudden arrival of an unnecessary, contradictory godplot - and sudden departure? It does the story no favours, obviously, and the character(s) even less.

 

It's all so pointless, so slap-dash, so last-minute, so... Abnettverse. 

 

[darkhorse0607]

Thanks, I hate it.

 

Granted context is missing in a write-up but still, I don't love a lot of this, mainly for the fact that this was supposed to be the end, not Abnett writing the director's cut of the Siege that they somehow couldn't fit into the other 8 books+novellas, and did zero to build up during the majority of the mainline Heresy series

 

Where's Scribe and his salt

 

Spoiler

Also for the love of the Emperor, I'm getting really tired of Abnett's Narnia doors that he's becoming a fan of

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by darkhorse0607

[Scribe]

2 hours ago, darkhorse0607 said:

Where's Scribe and his salt

 

Brother, if we cannot laugh, how can we make it through these dark times? ;)

[DukeLeto69]

4 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

  Reveal hidden contents

>theological discussion on the nature of power and the price of victory.

 

Frankly, I think this is what frustrates me the most about this whole plot.

 

The Emperor's whole shtick has been 'avoid joining the Great Game'. He steals fire from the gods when they believe he's come to join them. He oppresses 'faith', especially in his person, because he's aware of what it leads to. He's consistently undercut this view of himself, and that's one of the fundamental pillars of 40K, to my mind: the Emperor as an unwilling divinity, suspended between real and unreal and in constant agony because of humanity's desperate belief. The literal Corpse-Emperor whose crumbling empire has subverted everything he tried to build, right down to perverting the man himself into something he put every effort into not becoming. This goes against basically everything everyone in the setting has tried or warned him about. The Eldar pantheon were a bulwark of sorts against Chaos. The Watchers in the Dark have told him 'yo your approach is bogus dude'. The Cabal obviously want him gone. The Emperor, for better or worse, is trying something new (or old, depending on how you feel about new Necron guff talking about how they zipped up the galaxy with their pylon network previously) - and it's that hubris, that arrogance, that self-confident belief in His Way that makes the character so dynamic and, ultimately, so tragic.

 

To then turn around and, without ceremony, have the Emperor simply decide 'nah I'll just become a god lol' - compromising everything up until this point, ignoring the Talisman of Seven Hammers, ignoring Outcast Dead - and then simply decide 'actually nah I'll just not be a god' is so... Marvel? It has that smell of Marvel's cosmology to it, its Phoenix Forces and cosmic power-ups that appear and disappear as needed for the story. Everything we know of the Emperor says he'd rather die than do the apotheosis thing, and everything we know of the Emperor says he will essentially never compromise or divert from the path he's chosen. To have him both decide to embrace divinity (at the cost of the species that has been his entire focus) and then discard that divinity because a guy who stabbed him in the back (well, the front) the last time there was power on the table they disagreed on the use of... is... what?

 

What is the point of this? It adds nothing to the story. One can simply say 'the Emperor is really pissed off and as the immaterium encroaches, he becomes even more powerful' (y'know, just like Psychic Awakening!) and that is a perfectly valid and easy explanation for whatever feats of strength you want from him. Why do we have this sudden arrival of an unnecessary, contradictory godplot - and sudden departure? It does the story no favours, obviously, and the character(s) even less.

 

It's all so pointless, so slap-dash, so last-minute, so... Abnettverse. 

 

 

“He’s not the Messiah, he’s a very naughty boy!”

 

”Only the true Messiah would deny his divinity!”

[EverythingIsGreat]

20 hours ago, Vassakov said:

Spoiler

Admist all of this, the Emperor presses onwards to his wayward son. He's essentially just in the Warp... and here's the thing. The Emperor stole power from the Warp once. He can do it again. And so, whilst most of the characters think that the prophecy of the Dark King is what will happen if Horus wins. And maybe it could have been.

 

But it's not. The Emperor draws deep of the Warp and becomes something... else. A black void of power and wrath and devastation. Something that leaves bits of the traitors fleeing, and annihilates whatever stands against him. Even were he to win, humanity would lose. His apotheosis would be specifies doom as much as Horus'.

 

 

Thank you for the comprehensive spoiler. There are some... perennial questions that come up again. 

Some of the questions exist are because there are no origin stories for the Emperor or for the bio-psychic creation process of the Primarchs (and others, such as the Navigator mutants). 

We get bits and pieces of info here and there, but no coherent, set explanation by BL/GW. Most of these bits and pieces are in character voice/opinion. This leads to all kinds of speculation,. We are like archeologists discovering artifacts which may have been intentionally misleading by their creators, thousands of miles and thousands of years apart and trying to fit them into a whole.
 

 

Spoiler

For instance, what does "stealing" from the Warp mean? Does that stuff belong to somebody? Do the so-called "gods" (another mysterious term in WH) have the copyright or some sort of exclusive? Or does it belong to anybody who can take it, for ill or good? Also, how can one personally use/harness "god"-like power unless they are already a "god" (or greater, as from the description it seems the Emperor remains unaffected/undepleted by such use)

From the spoiler, it seems that the Emperor becomes a different class of entity when he assumes that power. Call it the Dark King Class, that is as inimical to the Warp as it is to Realspace. There have been previous other instances in published lore where the mysterious Emperor uses his special sauce to completely annihilate Warp entities. I mean, he erases them, their will is gone, they are not just rendered back into primordial soup or inert warpstuff, or transformed into a flower arrangement. What's that all about?

 

Not really expecting any answers from "official" sources, for all the usual commercial/trade reasons. But perhaps this could add a page or two of discussion, FWIW.

[Minuros]

3 hours ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

Some of the questions exist are because there are no origin stories for the Emperor or for the bio-psychic creation process of the Primarchs (and others, such as the Navigator mutants). 

Sometimes I think the best way to look at the Emperor is that he is not human at all. We know that the warp used to be calmer in the past, but what if the Old Ones created entities whose purpose was to keep it that way? They would be responsible for containing chaos in the warp, were anathema to them and would be connected someway to each of the psychic races. For lack of a better term lets call them gods.
The war of the ancients may have been too much for them to control and they were gradually destroyed/consumed by chaos. But there was one that found a way out of the warp by merging with /possessing the psychic gestalt genetated by the human shamans (aka perpetuals).
This would explain why the Emperor is always seen has being in realspace and in the warp at the same time. And because of this he is a being removed from space and time which, like a daemon, would be able to have a glimpse at various universes and their outcomes and chose the best for his own goals, which may not be the future of mankind.

I think this would align with the story we have so far. It would also explain why Horus rebelled when he understood his true nature. 

[Scribe]

6 hours ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

Some of the questions exist are because there are no origin stories for the Emperor

 

???

 

I just dont know if I can do it anymore.

 

We do have the origins. Like....

 

Spoiler

Stealing from the Warp, is to take the power, without the fulfilling the bargain. Clearly a deal was made, and the Emperor either reneged on it, or cheated the Gods.

 

We already know the origin of the Emperor. We also know when/where he 'powered up' already, and so to do so again is not really that much of a stretch.

 

The nu-lore about the Emperor is really better dismissed and forgotten, as its all unnecessary. He is a gestalt being, who can already act as a vessel for the Warp. It doesnt need to be any more than that, and it makes sense within the already established canon.

 

Now, that Abnett then has him do a 'nah nevermind' when hes already displayed COSMIC levels of arrogance and stubbornness? I mean...yikes.

 

But we shall have to see how it goes I guess.

 

[Scribe]

I mean that plot point better be really well done or I'm laughing my ass off.

 

Spoiler

For over 30,000 years, I have seen the way. I alone can chart the path. I alone have walked it. I alone have damned countless souls, countless worlds, to burn or cast themselves upon the swords of the boys I have harvested, mutilated, and formed into my weapons. I alone, have the power to see this throu....

 

Wait, whats that Ol? I have it wrong? I need to give up this power? Oh... btw tell me all about this Catholicism again?

 

EDIT the Secondus.

 

Spoiler

Ol has to shiv him right? Or speak some of that Abnett enuncia mumbo jumbo? Like something has to be done that is extreme here right? To alter the perceptions of the Emperor of Mankind who has been DELIRIOUSLY TRAGICALLY ARROGANT as his only character trait for NEAR TWENTY YEARS.

 

RIGHT?!

 

Jesus....

Edited October 31, 2023 by Scribe

[DukeLeto69]

9 hours ago, Scribe said:

I mean that plot point better be really well done or I'm laughing my ass off.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

For over 30,000 years, I have seen the way. I alone can chart the path. I alone have walked it. I alone have damned countless souls, countless worlds, to burn or cast themselves upon the swords of the boys I have harvested, mutilated, and formed into my weapons. I alone, have the power to see this throu....

 

Wait, whats that Ol? I have it wrong? I need to give up this power? Oh... btw tell me all about this Catholicism again?

 

EDIT the Secondus.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Ol has to shiv him right? Or speak some of that Abnett enuncia mumbo jumbo? Like something has to be done that is extreme here right? To alter the perceptions of the Emperor of Mankind who has been DELIRIOUSLY TRAGICALLY ARROGANT as his only character trait for NEAR TWENTY YEARS.

 

RIGHT?!

 

Jesus....

 

I think we finally have confirmation that Disney is going to buy GW because Ol is clearly doing a Jedi mind trick on the Emp and this is the start of the cross over with the SW universe! Just wait until Loken pulls out that light sabre!

[Corinthus]

I was optimistic after the first book of "the end" but boy does this sound like an elongated mess. It's three books happening in the span of a boarding action, and Dan even jokes about time and space having no meaning anymore. It's like the three books are a metaphor for the decaying of reality happening at Terra.

 

Like the great George Lucas said: It's like poetry, it rhymes.

[EverythingIsGreat]

I don't think there's ever been an origin story for the Emperor. We have been told what he may have been/may be. Maybe he's a gestalt being. Maybe the shamans of some lost era thousands or millions of years ago incarnated in a vessel. Maybe he's the primogenitor of the human race. Maybe a toy of the Old Ones. Maybe he came from another galaxy. Maybe he's running from the Tyranids. Who knows. Some characters have expressed their opinions of him. We don't know when he first appears, for instance. Some have known him 30000 before the HH. That doesn't make the entity 30000 years old or 3000000 years old. The point is, anything concrete constrains the IP. So I don't think this will ever be clarified. What we can do, is discuss whether the twists and turns the IP takes in order to follow GW trade strategy, make sense as they are applied to the literature and the game.

 

One thing that has been put forth in the past, is that Chaos and Emperor have this disagreement going since forever, and the HH is just one chapter of the Long Game between them. The Emperor character has alluded as much. But, any character including the Emperor may be lying, which gives the IP maximum breadth to go in any direction. It can rankle followers of the lore, especially when the change in direction is artless. But outside of bad execution, when it comes to the story or the game who cares about the philosophical foundation when the telling is entertaining? Most I think would read a novel for the page-to-page excitement, and as long as the story is minimally coherent, they tend to overlook the way the big picture is (mis)handled. And ofcourse there are also really good books that handle all aspects extremely well.

 

The other lore-related sticking point is the so-called deal the Emperor made with, I suppose, the "gods" of Chaos. In-lore, what does a "deal" mean to a demon? Nothing. The lore says that these entities make "pacts" because they perceive a temporary advantage. The pacts can be unilaterally thrown out at any moment. What does "stealing" or "not playing fair" mean in such circumstances? The "Anathema" is shown to already have "anathematic" power within the Warp. Even the "gods" have to take him on all together to stand a chance. What can they offer him in a so-called "deal"? A faster way of bringing about their doom? What can he be trusted to offer them in return? All the whining by Chaos could be explained by saying that whatever ploy they had in dealing with the Emperor was overmatched by the Emperor's own ploy. They tried to get clever and they were caught stupid. The IP can go this way with minimal fuss.

 

 

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

I don't think there's ever been an origin story for the Emperor.

 

"Story" no not really. An Origin? Yes there is.

[DukeLeto69]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

 

"Story" no not really. An Origin? Yes there is.

Do we need the it though? The HH for many was better when it was broad sketches in the real world and myths and legends in-universe. If they keep filling in all the gaps people will ultimately just be hacked off because it doesn’t fit with their understanding of the lore or their head canon that filled in the gaps.

Edited October 31, 2023 by DukeLeto69
Typo

[Scribe]

29 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

Do we need the it though? The HH for many was better when it was broad sketches in the real world and myths and legends in-universe. If they keep filling in all the gaps people will ultimately just be hacked off because it doesn’t fit with their understanding of the lore or their head canon that filled in the gaps.

Edited 28 minutes ago by DukeLeto69

 

We all know its too late for that. The Emperor had an origin long before the retcons of the HH series were a twinkle in someones eye.

[EverythingIsGreat]

2 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

We all know its too late for that. The Emperor had an origin long before the retcons of the HH series were a twinkle in someones eye.

 

But DukeLeto69 makes a valid point. For instance a certain character by all available circumstantial evidence, has died, say in a planetary bombardment. This is repeated in different stories by various characters. Then much later in the storyline the character reappears, broken but alive. Note the lore never equivocally stated "so-and-so is dead", like "just before the shockwave reduced him to slag, Nekol thought that a strawberry ice cream would be nice about now". Characters thought he was dead, and so might readers. His reappearance is not a retcon, it is a possible continuity. Whether it is told in an engaging manner is a different story.

However showing a certain fort gate, say the Momentary Gate, open in one book while it is at the same time in the storyline closed in another book is discontinuous. It would require a retcon to put it right. Whether that happens is also a different issue.

[Scribe]

12 minutes ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

 

But DukeLeto69 makes a valid point. For instance a certain character by all available circumstantial evidence, has died, say in a planetary bombardment. This is repeated in different stories by various characters. Then much later in the storyline the character reappears, broken but alive. Note the lore never equivocally stated "so-and-so is dead", like "just before the shockwave reduced him to slag, Nekol thought that a strawberry ice cream would be nice about now". Characters thought he was dead, and so might readers. His reappearance is not a retcon, it is a possible continuity. Whether it is told in an engaging manner is a different story.

However showing a certain fort gate, say the Momentary Gate, open in one book while it is at the same time in the storyline closed in another book is discontinuous. It would require a retcon to put it right. Whether that happens is also a different issue.

 

I dont know what point you are trying to make. What you are describing, in what is supposedly a series, is just flawed editorial control, bad writing, or retcons.

[lansalt]

6 hours ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

I don't think there's ever been an origin story for the Emperor.

Actually, it does exist and it has not changed much, there are just parts that are no longer mentioned.
Realms of Chaos in 1988 explained how the Emperor was born in 8000BC Anatolia and his early Highlander/Conan progression through millenia fighting against Chaos and guiding humanity until the Unification wars. Since then, Master of Mankind and other books in the Dawn of Fire have repeated that story in visions and dreams coming from the Emperor (including the Star Child).
The Sensei and the Shamans have not been mentioned again, but as far I know there's nothing that contradicts their supposed existence.

[EverythingIsGreat]

Well "retcon" has a very specific meaning, for one. As for bad writing, sure happens, but that was't my point. In retrospect, a sympathetic and effective character in a banging series opener that is told mainly by his POV, just ... disappears in a bombardment, presumed dead? Wouldn't a character like that at least deserve to be put away, as it were, in a more cogent and final manner? Could it be that the presumption of his death rather than his inevitable later reappearance was the editorial decision here? Fandom was abuzz upon the release of Horus Rising, and there was almost universal admiration of Loken as a character or/and in the way he was portrayed. Editorially (and other ways) this character has now become an asset. You don't just kill him off in nonchalant way. You use him. Again, whether this was executed correctly or not is a different issue. But flawed editorial control may not have been the case in this instance.

[EverythingIsGreat]

21 minutes ago, lansalt said:

Actually, it does exist and it has not changed much, there are just parts that are no longer mentioned.
Realms of Chaos in 1988 explained how the Emperor was born in 8000BC Anatolia and his early Highlander/Conan progression through millenia fighting against Chaos and guiding humanity until the Unification wars. Since then, Master of Mankind and other books in the Dawn of Fire have repeated that story in visions and dreams coming from the Emperor (including the Star Child).
The Sensei and the Shamans have not been mentioned again, but as far I know there's nothing that contradicts their supposed existence.

May I ask where is that stated? In "Slaves to Darkness" pages 216-217 there are in-Universe factual statements about the Emperor, but not about his origin.

 

Quote

.. he is god and father to his race. 

 

 Page 216. Not the same as saying, "... he is god and father of his race."

 

Quote

He has sacrificed himself, giving up his endless life in the service of Man.

 

Page 216 again. This is unequivocal. This is the voice of GW, not of an author or an author's character. And is also quite revealing, and a restrictive statement, as any recounting of how this happened has to take this statement into account.

 

Page 217, before the Imperium

 

Quote

...the Emperor lived in hiding among ordinary Men.

 

It is not stated how long before the Imperium that was.