The End and the Death Part I, II, III, ...

[Scribe]

33 minutes ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

Wouldn't a character like that at least deserve to be put away, as it were, in a more cogent and final manner?

 

No, because its a setting of cosmic, insane, unfathomably consuming, war.

 

Regardless, unless I got the wires crossed somewhere, we were talking about the Emperor having an origin, not what I assume is a Loken side discussion.

[EverythingIsGreat]

Ok, then according to GW circa 1988 (Realm of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness page 216) the Emperor's life was "endless" prior to his internment in the Golden Throne. But the statement does not say that his life is no longer endless. Only that he sacrificed his (presumably still endless) life.

 

Quote

He has sacrificed himself, giving up his endless life in the service of Man.

 

Was there a beginning to him? Not as far as I can tell.

[Scribe]

12 minutes ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

Was there a beginning to him? Not as far as I can tell.

 

Yes, when he was born.

[DukeLeto69]

Not saying it is good or bad, and not saying this is what is happening, but the lore for 40k evolves and changes and always has and just because something was a certain way once in the real world 30ish years ago doesn’t mean it fits with how the lore exists now (or how GW want the lore to exist now).

[lansalt]

58 minutes ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

May I ask where is that stated? In "Slaves to Darkness" pages 216-217 there are in-Universe factual statements about the Emperor, but not about his origin.

Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness pages 174-176
 

Then the text goes on to explain the warp, chaos, how the ancient shamans created him, etc.
 

[Scribe]

18 minutes ago, lansalt said:

Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness pages 174-176
 

Then the text goes on to explain the warp, chaos, how the ancient shamans created him, etc.
 

 

[Bobss]

Spoiler alert: all Emperor origin stories are bad. Even the retro ones. The only one which was half-interesting was the DAOT renegade idea ADB pushed

[EverythingIsGreat]

Ok, I found the sevment. It is in The Lost and the Damned, the second volume of Realms, not in Slaves to Darkness, the first volume. And it is pretty comprehensive. The Emperor ( or properly, New Man) is the result of centuries-worth of shamans sacrificing themselves into the vessel etc. etc. I had forgotten how finite this was. So there is an original origin story. The New Man's personality is interesting in the sense that ir is pretty much like the Old Man's.

 

On the other hand, the 2nd volume already contradicts the first volume in some places... so feel free to grumble, but ofcourse things were in flux back then.

[EverythingIsGreat]

Sorry, was wrong. The book says that all the shamans pooled their essence etc and a year later, the New Man (Emperor) was born. B follows A, but it is not expressly stated that B is caused by A. So, this can be interpreted as

[Scribe]

2 hours ago, Bobss said:

Spoiler alert: all Emperor origin stories are bad. Even the retro ones. The only one which was half-interesting was the DAOT renegade idea ADB pushed

 

Bad or not, it exists. ;)

[tgcleric]

To be precise. It says "he idenitified" the time of his birth. So the only source of the birth is an unreliable one. A source we know lies all time. 

 

Also, changing lore to fit better later is a time honored tradition. Since, you know, it's not actual history. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by tgcleric

[DukeLeto69]

5 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

Bad or not, it exists. ;)

Does that mean it cannot or should not ever be changed?

 

Guess that means the only lore we are allowed is what was in 1st Edition?

[lansalt]

5 hours ago, tgcleric said:

It says "he idenitified" the time of his birth. So the only source of the birth is an unreliable one. A source we know lies all time. 

It seems the Emperor wasn't lying in this case, because apart from the visions of his youth he shares with a custodian in Master of Mankind, in 40k's Dawn of Fire: Throne of Light the Star Child phenomenon involves people having dreams of a baby in a prehistoric anatolian village.

This doesn't mean that there's not more to his origin (shamans? DAoT weapon?) but it pretty much makes it canon when and where he was born in a human body in history. There's always the warp to explain things happening before or after they should, like Slaanesh daemons and cultists before the Fall of the Eldar.

[EverythingIsGreat]

8 hours ago, lansalt said:

It seems the Emperor wasn't lying in this case, because apart from the visions of his youth he shares with a custodian in Master of Mankind, in 40k's Dawn of Fire: Throne of Light the Star Child phenomenon involves people having dreams of a baby in a prehistoric anatolian village.

This doesn't mean that there's not more to his origin (shamans? DAoT weapon?) but it pretty much makes it canon when and where he was born in a human body in history. There's always the warp to explain things happening before or after they should, like Slaanesh daemons and cultists before the Fall of the Eldar.

 

I don’t think this is a correct reading.

 

The first paragraph in “The Emperor is Born” section is in the voice of GW. These are definitive statements with no inflection or equivocation. The fact that they may bring up more questions takes nothing away from the fact that this is simply what happened.

 

The second paragraph describes character, not GW statements. This is what GW says the Emperor said. Is it correct? character misrememberance? a lie? whatever. The next part of the sentence is interesting: “he would have almost forgotten his early life”. Notice that this is different from “he had forgotten his early life”. Why not just state it like that? One of these two characterizations is limiting, as far the IP is concerned. The other, leaves things more open. Similarly, the examples of the custodian visions or random dreams are also character statements. As is Horus telling Loken in Horus Rising about the Emperor, "In Anatoly in his own childhood ...". They point in a certain direction for sure, but there's enough leeway in the telling to go in a different direction if so decided. Horus also calls the Emperor father, which may or may not be correct, literally or metaphorically.

 

Other than that, as mentioned above, the shaman-creation angle gets a lot of space in the book,although there is no direct GW statement that the Emperor was the result. It is rather inferred from the text. This is from page 175 (same book Realms of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned):

 

[The shamans] “…decided to pool their own energies by reincarnating in a single body. In their thousands they swallowed poison, and in their thousands they died, and their kind was gone from the earth.

 

Within a year the man later to be known as the Emperor was born. As he grew older his powers began to manifest themselves and he gradually remembered the thousands of lives that lay behind him. He was the New Man. But he was also the past.”

 

Other bits: the shamans created the Emperor because they were losing the ability to reincarnate. Unlike them, the Emperor is “made to live forever, so that he would never have to reincarnate, but would survive unchanged for eternity.” Also from page 175. And there’s an interesting picture of the Emperor in Space Marine scale, holding what seems to be a bolt pistol (page 173).

 

In any case, this is the Emperor’s origin and origin story, at least circa 1988. I had mostly forgotten all that, but I'm glad to be reminded.

 

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

I've only skimmed some of the last couple pages as Im still waiting for my copy, but how much of all this origin talk actually relates to the writing in end and the death vol 2. Or have we all just gotten into the weeds at this point 

[Scribe]

51 minutes ago, Mechanicus Tech-Support said:

I've only skimmed some of the last couple pages as Im still waiting for my copy, but how much of all this origin talk actually relates to the writing in end and the death vol 2. Or have we all just gotten into the weeds at this point 

 

Pretty sure it's 100% weeds.

[EverythingIsGreat]

50 minutes ago, Mechanicus Tech-Support said:

I've only skimmed some of the last couple pages as Im still waiting for my copy, but how much of all this origin talk actually relates to the writing in end and the death vol 2. Or have we all just gotten into the weeds at this point 

 

Based on the spoiler of part 2 posted here, there have been complaints about the way the Emperor character is supposedly portrayed. The origin side show resulted from that. I thought that there was no real origin story of the Emperor, and that that void was filled by head canon. I was wrong that there was never an origin story. I don't know if the head canon argument is invalid though. Knowingly or unknowingly, by chance or design, GW in many cases uses elusive language to set up characters and events. The language is easily misinterpreted, especially if one is inclined to have unnecessarily firm opinions with the related biases. It's only a story, anyway.

[helterskelter]

 

12 hours ago, Mechanicus Tech-Support said:

I've only skimmed some of the last couple pages as Im still waiting for my copy, but how much of all this origin talk actually relates to the writing in end and the death vol 2. Or have we all just gotten into the weeds at this point 

I think the spoilers at this point are "nothing of note" so feel free to enjoy the books content to your own standards

[Just123456]

On 10/31/2023 at 1:21 PM, EverythingIsGreat said:

May I ask where is that stated? In "Slaves to Darkness" pages 216-217 there are in-Universe factual statements about the Emperor, but not about his origin.

 

 

 Page 216. Not the same as saying, "... he is god and father of his race."

 

 

Page 216 again. This is unequivocal. This is the voice of GW, not of an author or an author's character. And is also quite revealing, and a restrictive statement, as any recounting of how this happened has to take this statement into account.

 

Page 217, before the Imperium

 

 

It is not stated how long before the Imperium that was. 

The Emperor's origin story was written in 'Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned' starting on page 174. The same book also details the Sensei and Star Child from pages 184-191. 

 

So saying the Emperor had no origin at any point is wrong. Lexicanum also goes into great detail about what 'Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned' said about the shaman backstory, even names which page numbers described it. And Lexicanum is strictly moderated with a no nonsense policy. Just look at the discussion pages on Lexicanum to see how strict they are on lore accuracy. 

 

The whole shaman backstory is presented as definitive. Its Games Workshop narrating the book, not an in-universe narrator (unreliable narrators didn't become part of the setting until 3rd edition, which is why 3rd edition was especially big on unreliable narrators). and 'Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned' practically breaks the fourth wall with out-of-universe information that an in-universe narrator could not possibly know. Nevermind the fact that 'Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned ' on pages 184-191 showed the Imperium persecuting the Sensei, thinking they were in league with Chaos when they were really the biological children of the Emperor. 

 

The misunderstanding of the shaman backstory being a theory comes from misunderstanding the words of 40k YouTube channels, which aren't really reliable anyway. That is what I personally think, anyway. 

 

I hope it's alright. 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Just123456

[wecanhaveallthree]

I'm about halfway through, and two things are clear: Abnett is an extremely good writer, and this book is an utter slog.

 

It's the rare tome that makes you scream at it to DO SOMETHING. We spend so long on these random repeated vignettes, the random cut aways from the action - none of this is necessary. The short 'chapters' don't help either, because when we do finally get something interesting, it's over again almost immediately - enjoy skimming through another fifty pages of 'time ain't working right' and 'the warp is totally messing with us' until it picks up again. There's just so much dead weight in this book, and I'm only halfway. There's just no momentum, no cohesion. It's 'and then, and then, and then', scene after differing scene. It's narrative flash cards. I just. Ugh. 

 

E: Right! I'm done, finally.

 

Spoiler

What an absolute, utter, shocking waste of time.

 

Abnett pulls this Dark King plot out of the ether. He wastes page after page after page on it. Who's it gonna be! What's it gonna do! And what does it amount to? Nothing. Literally nothing. It just goes away with no reprecussions because Oll and the Emperor - not even directly! Via proxy! - have a chat. And Oll is like 'ok but you gotta think rationally' and the Emperor is like 'thanks bro I totally see I was wrong' and there we go, it's done, dusted. 'Gone into myth, for now', as Abnett writes.

 

Hundreds of pages. Thousands of words. Discarding so much of what came before for a pointless, asinine arc that does nothing but waste time.

 

This is to say nothing of the conversation itself. If people thought Last Church was amateur theology hour, hoo boy, I hope you're ready to have a sit down and listen to Oll petulantly whine at the Emperor until he gives up. I hope you're ready for pages of tortured prose and Abnett tying neat connections to the work he's just introduced as though he's made some kind of excellent point that wasn't done and made dozens of books ago back in Outcast Dead. We got this whole monologue about, aha, the Emperor has totally learned from the Primarchs, and he's learned from Rogal Dorn that sometimes you just gotta hold tight, that you can't win every battle! Sometimes you just gotta not lose! As though this was something that had never occurred to the man before in fifty thousand years. As though this is some genius insight.

 

McNeill did it infinitely better with a fraction of the page length. I cannot believe we spent all these bloated volumes on a lesson the Emperor canonically learned, or was at very least wholly aware of, way back when Magnus broke the Webway. I cannot believe Abnett has chosen to relitigate all this nonsense, to ignore so much, just so he can do it his way with his characters.

 

This book is so enormously unsatisfying. It's just Abnett's worst traits, all magnified through an enormous page count. Does he write excellent moments? Absolutely. Does he have enormous talent and flair for the dramatic? Certainly. But there is absolutely no substance to it. It's a collection of Cool Scenes that don't build to anything, that don't pay off, that collapse with total anticlimax because the author appears to have just gotten bored of them. There's little to sink your teeth into, little to get excited about for the future, because Abnett is wholly concerned with his own cosmology - if you're not interested in his other work, well, you can apparently go jump.

 

Probably the crowning terror of this tome is Sanguinius. Poor, poor Sanguinius. I hope you like having your expectations subverted. I hope you really enjoy borderline torture porn of the Angel being, I quote, 'beaten like a disobedient dog'. Rolling around on the floor in agony, unable even to stand, while Horus smashes him with Worldbreaker for pages... and pages... and pages. Like Abnett had just lost a tournament match to a Blood Angels player or something. Blech.

 

There's good writing. Abnett breaks out the dictionary. I enjoy the second-person Horus scenes. But it's unpleasant, unsatisfying and unnecessary.

 

E2: UGH.

 

Spoiler

Horus reaching back in time to give himself an acquired brain injury so the Emperor couldn't read his mind is possibly the dumbest thing I've ever read.

 

The Ahriman scenes are very, very cool.

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by wecanhaveallthree
done and done and done

[Nagashsnee]

9 minutes ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

I'm about halfway through, and two things are clear: Abnett is an extremely good writer, and this book is an utter slog.

 

It's the rare tome that makes you scream at it to DO SOMETHING. We spend so long on these random repeated vignettes, the random cut aways from the action - none of this is necessary. The short 'chapters' don't help either, because when we do finally get something interesting, it's over again almost immediately - enjoy skimming through another fifty pages of 'time ain't working right' and 'the warp is totally messing with us' until it picks up again. There's just so much dead weight in this book, and I'm only halfway. There's just no momentum, no cohesion. It's 'and then, and then, and then', scene after differing scene. It's narrative flash cards. I just. Ugh. 

 

So it has you wishing for the END and the DEATH the whole time?

 

Sounds like Abnett is on point .

[darkhorse0607]

2 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

I'm about halfway through, and two things are clear: Abnett is an extremely good writer, and this book is an utter slog.

 

It's the rare tome that makes you scream at it to DO SOMETHING. We spend so long on these random repeated vignettes, the random cut aways from the action - none of this is necessary. The short 'chapters' don't help either, because when we do finally get something interesting, it's over again almost immediately - enjoy skimming through another fifty pages of 'time ain't working right' and 'the warp is totally messing with us' until it picks up again. There's just so much dead weight in this book, and I'm only halfway. There's just no momentum, no cohesion. It's 'and then, and then, and then', scene after differing scene. It's narrative flash cards. I just. Ugh. 

 

So it's exactly like Part One is what you're saying

[wecanhaveallthree]

I've ANGRILY edited my comment above with thoughts on finishing.

 

I'm just sitting here in disbelief that that actually happened. When I first read the spoilers, I thought: no. No way it goes down like that. But it's so, so much worse.

[Fedor]

these latest spoilers of the Horus-Sanguinius fight seem completely different from the earlier ones,

Spoiler

which suggested a dominant sanguinius being killed with one hit after Horus realises he won't join him.  Now he's beaten to a pulp over multiple pages?

 

 

[caladancid]

49 minutes ago, Fedor said:

these latest spoilers of the Horus-Sanguinius fight seem completely different from the earlier ones,

  Reveal hidden contents

which suggested a dominant sanguinius being killed with one hit after Horus realises he won't join him.  Now he's beaten to a pulp over multiple pages?

 

 

Let me introduce you to the trend in this subforum. Speed reading through a novel (or not reading at all) to post a review.

 

Here is a good review by Valrak of the scene itself.