The End and the Death Part I, II, III, ...

[darkhorse0607]

2 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

I've ANGRILY edited my comment above with thoughts on finishing.

 

I'm just sitting here in disbelief that that actually happened. When I first read the spoilers, I thought: no. No way it goes down like that. But it's so, so much worse.

Yeah, I might sit this one out honestly after reading more peoples writeups Being involved in the lore and conversation is cool and I love it, but I don't know if it's worth me ending a series that I'm emotionally invested in with this

[EverythingIsGreat]

3 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

I've ANGRILY edited my comment above with thoughts on finishing.

 

I'm just sitting here in disbelief that that actually happened. When I first read the spoilers, I thought: no. No way it goes down like that. But it's so, so much worse.

 

Did anybody save, like, a vial of Sanguinius blood? If they did, who knows what will turn up, in M42 or later.

[Nagashsnee]

The worse part of this for me, is that every aspect of this book, is broken into what feels like 100 tiny parts and tossed into a mixer.  Sang vs Horus is probably 10-12 pages but broken into 4-5 parts separated by 8 other story lines which themshelves are 12 pages broken into 4-5 parts separated. Plus random c plots. 

 

The page count is a total joke as you have 1 page chapters that only fill 1/3 of the page.

 

I am going to leave off writting a review until i mull it all over. But i am not a happy camper.  If book 3 follows like this it may well end Abnetts reputation with a large number of BL readers.

[Scribe]

4 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

I've ANGRILY edited my comment above with thoughts on finishing.

 

I'm just sitting here in disbelief that that actually happened. When I first read the spoilers, I thought: no. No way it goes down like that. But it's so, so much worse.

 

[Arguleon Veq]

I wonder if the “point” of the books organization, structure and tone was to emphasize the the sheer warpy-ness of Terra at this point, that narrative cohesion was sacrificed in order to provide the reader a “truer” experience of the events, great and small

 

so in fact this is Abnetts “stream of consciousness” approach James Joyce style

 

i mean, I get it, it’s a heroic idea…but the implementation is so off putting, clumsy and random, the sum is lesser than the parts

 

 

[wecanhaveallthree]

Yes, that's the point. For example, there are chapters where two characters are fighting. Between those chapters, another character is reading out a book detailing their fight. Between those chapters, other people elsewhere are hearing the character reading out the book detailing the fight. We regularly see/hear things in one chapter of something that's happening/happened in another chapter. Abnett is pushing home that space/time are collapsing on themselves.

 

Naga is right - or at least, I agree with their assessment - that this hurts the narrative far more than it helps. 

 

Quote

Let me introduce you to the trend in this subforum. Speed reading through a novel (or not reading at all) to post a review.

 

It's a fair cop, but our subjective interpretations - and what we choose to highlight - will differ, frater to frater.

 

I personally found this one a giant slog and routinely found myself skimming through sections where Abnett is describing, say, this mountain of corpses, or that orgy of violence, or this way time and space have collapsed. Editing is a big issue here.

 

E: SPEAKING OF EDITING.

 

Quote

these latest spoilers of the Horus-Sanguinius fight seem completely different from the earlier ones

 

Spoiler

Sanguinius has absolutely no chance at any point and it's barely framed as such. We have Horus totally glutted with the power of the Four, remaking reality, and Sanguinius poking him is not and never was going to do anything. Sanguinius gets to zip around and say a cool line or two because Horus is waiting, patiently, for him to get tired, give in to despair and join Horus (this hasn't worked out in the past, but hey, why not give the ol' chesnut another spin?)

 

This lasts until Horus gets tired of playing pretend and decides, well, he had his chance. No more mercy. You know in the typical anime sense where a character 'gets serious' and suddenly blocks a blow they've been getting hit by constantly? Exactly what happens. Horus' internal monologue through it all is largely bored and self-possessed. He's in no danger. It's not boasting or gloating: he's ascendant. Sanguinius can't hurt him, and doesn't. 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by wecanhaveallthree
big e dit

[Astartes Consul]

Fired up the audiobook earlier and enjoying it a few hours in. I can see how this has ended up becoming quite bloated, though.

 

For my own amusement, a guess at the identity of The Dark King below...

 

Spoiler

The Emperor

 

[DukeLeto69]

11 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

I'm about halfway through, and two things are clear: Abnett is an extremely good writer, and this book is an utter slog.

 

It's the rare tome that makes you scream at it to DO SOMETHING. We spend so long on these random repeated vignettes, the random cut aways from the action - none of this is necessary. The short 'chapters' don't help either, because when we do finally get something interesting, it's over again almost immediately - enjoy skimming through another fifty pages of 'time ain't working right' and 'the warp is totally messing with us' until it picks up again. There's just so much dead weight in this book, and I'm only halfway. There's just no momentum, no cohesion. It's 'and then, and then, and then', scene after differing scene. It's narrative flash cards. I just. Ugh. 

 

E: Right! I'm done, finally.

 

  Hide contents

What an absolute, utter, shocking waste of time.

 

Abnett pulls this Dark King plot out of the ether. He wastes page after page after page on it. Who's it gonna be! What's it gonna do! And what does it amount to? Nothing. Literally nothing. It just goes away with no reprecussions because Oll and the Emperor - not even directly! Via proxy! - have a chat. And Oll is like 'ok but you gotta think rationally' and the Emperor is like 'thanks bro I totally see I was wrong' and there we go, it's done, dusted. 'Gone into myth, for now', as Abnett writes.

 

Hundreds of pages. Thousands of words. Discarding so much of what came before for a pointless, asinine arc that does nothing but waste time.

 

This is to say nothing of the conversation itself. If people thought Last Church was amateur theology hour, hoo boy, I hope you're ready to have a sit down and listen to Oll petulantly whine at the Emperor until he gives up. I hope you're ready for pages of tortured prose and Abnett tying neat connections to the work he's just introduced as though he's made some kind of excellent point that wasn't done and made dozens of books ago back in Outcast Dead. We got this whole monologue about, aha, the Emperor has totally learned from the Primarchs, and he's learned from Rogal Dorn that sometimes you just gotta hold tight, that you can't win every battle! Sometimes you just gotta not lose! As though this was something that had never occurred to the man before in fifty thousand years. As though this is some genius insight.

 

McNeill did it infinitely better with a fraction of the page length. I cannot believe we spent all these bloated volumes on a lesson the Emperor canonically learned, or was at very least wholly aware of, way back when Magnus broke the Webway. I cannot believe Abnett has chosen to relitigate all this nonsense, to ignore so much, just so he can do it his way with his characters.

 

This book is so enormously unsatisfying. It's just Abnett's worst traits, all magnified through an enormous page count. Does he write excellent moments? Absolutely. Does he have enormous talent and flair for the dramatic? Certainly. But there is absolutely no substance to it. It's a collection of Cool Scenes that don't build to anything, that don't pay off, that collapse with total anticlimax because the author appears to have just gotten bored of them. There's little to sink your teeth into, little to get excited about for the future, because Abnett is wholly concerned with his own cosmology - if you're not interested in his other work, well, you can apparently go jump.

 

Probably the crowning terror of this tome is Sanguinius. Poor, poor Sanguinius. I hope you like having your expectations subverted. I hope you really enjoy borderline torture porn of the Angel being, I quote, 'beaten like a disobedient dog'. Rolling around on the floor in agony, unable even to stand, while Horus smashes him with Worldbreaker for pages... and pages... and pages. Like Abnett had just lost a tournament match to a Blood Angels player or something. Blech.

 

There's good writing. Abnett breaks out the dictionary. I enjoy the second-person Horus scenes. But it's unpleasant, unsatisfying and unnecessary.

 

E2: UGH.

 

  Hide contents

Horus reaching back in time to give himself an acquired brain injury so the Emperor couldn't read his mind is possibly the dumbest thing I've ever read.

 

The Ahriman scenes are very, very cool.

 

So from that it seems you liked it?

[Just123456]

Spoiler

What is fascinating about the second volume is Oll Persson very explicitly said he is older than the Emperor. There was super strong implications for that in the Perpetual audio book and Saturnine, but now Oll Persson himself said it. 

 

Oll Persson also said he was there during a time humans built temples long before we built cities. 

 

And yeah, Ferrus was resurrected. He also seems to have been resurrected by Horus. In fact, Ferrus explicitly said it was Horus' will alone that resurrected him. Horus is a true god-like being as another user said before me, which implies that the fight between him and the Emperor will possibly be closer to a fight between equals then it was in the old fluff. But no matter the version, the Emperor is probably stronger and probably will still be stronger in Dan Abnett's version. But the Emperor's love for Horus will hold him back, but it'll be a closer fight than it was in old fluff. 

I edited the comment. 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Just123456

[Just123456]

6 hours ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

 

Did anybody save, like, a vial of Sanguinius blood? If they did, who knows what will turn up, in M42 or later.

I wanted to ask, what made you think there was never an official origin story for the Emperor? Almost anyone who thinks that has never read Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned. Almost anyone, anyway. 

 

Lexicanum precisely cited Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned for the shaman backstory, Sensei and Star Child, and Lexicanum also precisely cited all of the page numbers for the shaman backstory, Sensei and Star lore in Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned. Lexicanum is strictly moderated, being so strict that the moderator team only allows approved admins. 

 

 

Its not my intention to come off as patronizing, but some people seem to think the shaman backstory is nothing more than a theory, which probably originated from Luetin09, who didn't actually say that in context and is not reliable just as most 40k YouTube channels are not reliable. 

 

That is what I personally think, anyway. As I had wondered about why some people came to think the shaman backstory was nothing more than a theory. 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Just123456

[Noserenda]

I'm pretty sure the Blood angels have some of sanguinius' blood stashed away in relics and grails?

 

But cloning primarchs isn't that simple, and rarely works out properly

[DarkChaplain]

Jesus, I checked the audiobook and it had, like, 170 chapters or something. That's around 50 more than volume one - and they're both roughly the same runtime.

[cheywood]

If this pattern continues the third book will be 10,000 chapters, each containing a single paragraph.

[Dornfist]

27 minutes ago, cheywood said:

If this pattern continues the third book will be 10,000 chapters, each containing a single paragraph.

At that point, we will know that time has stopped for us. That is definitely going to be "The End and the Death" for us readers. Crickey...

[wecanhaveallthree]

We need to talk about the Tenth.

 

Spoiler

Am I taking crazy pills to think that it was obviously, seriously not Ferrus reincarnated solely to have a chat with Sanguinius? The whole scene is hideously 'off'. Yes, I get that Horus is ascending and that he's got godlike power, but surely there's no way it's actually, legitimately the guy. A full casing of necrodermis, words that don't match his mouth, a 'push' that puts Sanguinius right into Horus' hands, alone? It's all just too convenient and too in service to Horus' designs. I don't believe it for a second, but other fraters might - and certainly 40klore appears to have swallowed it without any critical thought at all.

 

[Scribe]

I dont know that I really do need to talk about the Tenth. I think your summary does enough to give me far more than 'pause' @wecanhaveallthree

 

It sounds about what I, as dyed in the wool pessimist, expected at this point.

 

Is there any way this can even be saved with the final book?

[Dornfist]

1 hour ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

We need to talk about the Tenth.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Am I taking crazy pills to think that it was obviously, seriously not Ferrus reincarnated solely to have a chat with Sanguinius? The whole scene is hideously 'off'. Yes, I get that Horus is ascending and that he's got godlike power, but surely there's no way it's actually, legitimately the guy. A full casing of necrodermis, words that don't match his mouth, a 'push' that puts Sanguinius right into Horus' hands, alone? It's all just too convenient and too in service to Horus' designs. I don't believe it for a second, but other fraters might - and certainly 40klore appears to have swallowed it without any critical thought at all.

 

Oh dear. So, "no one's ever really gone" issue from Disney Star Wars is leaking here in the finale? Hmm: I sincerely hope it is not Ferrus either...it would ruin so much...

[wecanhaveallthree]

I'd caution that my summary is very subjectively negative. I'd couch that by saying that I really enjoyed The Magos - the back-and-forth style, the timelessness, the 'things aren't quite right' worked wonderfully in that collection. I've read and enjoyed Abnett doing similar work to this before, and while I haven't read anything beyond Ravenor, I very much enjoyed his Inquisitor books. This one, however, feels like it hasn't been tempered by a careful, experienced editor (or Abnett himself). Where The Magos is always leading somewhere, always tying itself back together in some clever fashion, I really don't know where we're going with EatD. That's probably what makes me so negative, honestly. Remember that I'm writing soon after reading when all the badfeels are nice and nasty-fresh. I need to see a way forward for the narrative, I'm willing, more than willing to accept slow burns and creeping dread - Fehervari's probably my favourite 40K author! - but I'm not seeing that here.

 

Or... AM I???

 

BEHOLD, COPIUM:

 

Spoiler

OKAY SO. SO. I'VE BEEN THINKIN'. I BEEN PUZZLIN'. GETTIN' THAT OLD THOUGHT-MAKER ON.

 

This book ends with Sanguinius death, but no Black Rage. Not even a sniff of it. No 'why did you betray us, Horus'. Sanguinius doesn't go nuts, he doesn't give in to despair, he gets shucked like a railway hobo. There's not even a suggestion it's going to happen. Horus apparently knows everything, but he doesn't mention even once that Sanguinius' refusal is gonna mean bad news for all his sons while he's casually internally monologuing. Nobody even suggests it, and I don't recall the Blood Angels in the book getting particularly wacky while the fight is going on, either. Sanguinius was far closer to spooky, mystic blood-curse in every other fight. In this one, he just goes down without much ceremony.

 

It also, perhaps more importantly, ends with Oll and John explicitly removed from the 'final confrontation'. I don't mean they get displaced, cos' MAGIC DOORS, I mean they leave of their own volition because they have a job to do - literally going back in time to place threads for their past self to find because despite time and space having no meaning, I guess causality still works for some reason lmao, and they're told they 'must survive' what's to come, which they wholly accept. So they're not going to be there, most likely, and they're integral to the mythos.

 

The Emperor casts out his compassion. He's not going to hold back against Horus, and he's not going to really care Sanguinius is dead, so that's out, too (Star Child, ho!)

 

Perhaps most importantly, and the biggest inhalation of copium, is that Malcador sees a vision of every 'now'. The Dark King's light is visible in literally every now, including what seems to be a nod to the Old Ones getting spooked by it. Every single possible reality he sees, the light is visible, except one - the grim darkness of the far future. Our future, the current Warhammer 40K. The only point in time where the Dark King doesn't appear to exist, where the Emperor's impossible choice (become King, destroy everything, don't become King, lose everything) doesn't have to be made or has been, somehow, avoided, or shielded.

 

With all the leaning on time and space being broken, I think the Emperor is going to pull a total swifty on everyone. Or, maybe not him, but Oll, or Malcador, or someone. Malcador's scenes in this - and his reaching through time as the burning, pained old man on the Throne to speak to and guide particular people - are also of particular interest, because he's doing, being, exactly what we've seen from the 'Emperor' in other times. Very interesting. 

 

So it ain't all bad, I suppose. There's threads to pull on. But maybe I'm just making excuses and trying to find something to be interested in beyond the unfortunately obvious.

 

 

E: Nearly forgot:

 

>Oh dear. So, "no one's ever really gone" issue from Disney Star Wars is leaking here in the finale? Hmm: I sincerely hope it is not Ferrus either...it would ruin so much...

 

Spoiler

Near the end, we find Ferrus' skull on a specifically-crafted Chaos altar with all sorts of sorcery and mysticism. I'd legitimately forgotten about it because it happens in the middle of the Sanguinius fight. So it seems fairly clear to me, now, that Ferrus was never there. It was Horus calling up a spooky ghost.

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by wecanhaveallthree

[Noot_Gunray]

Does anyone with the LE have a pic of the map they can post?

[ArielRSA]

I enjoyed it. Did t mind the silly stuff because I’ve found GW stuff inherently silly so it fit right in for me. 
 

it has reinforced my belief these could’ve been one book with all the little plot lines farmed out to novellas and short stories 

Edited November 5, 2023 by ArielRSA

[Just123456]

4 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

We need to talk about the Tenth.

 

  Hide contents

Am I taking crazy pills to think that it was obviously, seriously not Ferrus reincarnated solely to have a chat with Sanguinius? The whole scene is hideously 'off'. Yes, I get that Horus is ascending and that he's got godlike power, but surely there's no way it's actually, legitimately the guy. A full casing of necrodermis, words that don't match his mouth, a 'push' that puts Sanguinius right into Horus' hands, alone? It's all just too convenient and too in service to Horus' designs. I don't believe it for a second, but other fraters might - and certainly 40klore appears to have swallowed it without any critical thought at all.

 

Ferrus could have been resurrected with warped features and parts of him. As Horus is becoming mad. 

[System Sound]

First chapter

Spoiler

‘It is The Dance of the End and the Death,’ hisses the troupe master, the words awkward as though he has forgotten how to speak.

Off to a great start already huh...?

[grailkeeper]

I really dislike a lot of the stylistic writing choices. 2nd person present tense prose. Dream-like metaphor scenes.

 

Not for me.

[DBOA_ioopic]

Finish the TEATD2 storyline about Sanguinius and Ferrus 1 day ago. Starting to get a weird idea. Ferrus acts more like Horus than himself when talking to the angels in this volume.

 

Spoiler

As Ferrus speaks, his accent is described as “unmistakable, the Medusan accent Sanguinius remembers of old. But it is thin, almost fragile. There is no substance in it. It’s not a whisper. There are plenty of those still scratching and rustling in the gloom around them. It is a voice that seems to have carried from far away to reach him, and the distance has robbed it of any weight or volume(6:xv)”, “Ferrus looks down. His lips have barely moved during his utterance, and when they have, they have not matched the shape of his words.(6:xv)”, “Not a word Ferrus Manus has spoken has been accompanied by any movement of his mouth. Indeed, his mouth seems clamped, and his jaw clenched, as though he is trying to withstand intolerable pain.(6:xxv)”, “His lips have not moved in a long while now.(6:lii)”

The description here seems to deliberately emphasise that the sounds Ferrus makes are not under his own control. The part about the Medusan accent reminds me of the first meeting between the Angel and the Emperor, where the Emperor also speaks with a "perfect hometown accent".

 

In 6:xxii, Ferrus explains in great detail to the angel, at his request, the composition of the Triumph of Ruin and the position the angel would hold within it. And after the angel has listened to his entreaties, he replies:

“Now you don’t sound like yourself, “brother”,’ he says. ‘Now you sound like a trick. A lie. A mouthpiece.”

The inverted commas here brother also mean a lot. Interestingly, Angel's dialogue with Ferrus in this book is almost exclusively in terms of "brother" rather than directly addressing each other as "Ferrus". Odd for an Angel who tends to call other Loyalists by name in the SOT series.

The only time the Angel calls out to Ferrus in the entire book is when he is defeated in a duel with Horus. He sees Ferrus' skull on the altar and calls out to him "Manus".

If the Ferrus who talks to the Angel from the beginning to the end isn't 100% Ferrus himself (even though he claims he is many times), then the "until we meet again" mentioned at the end of their conversation as the title of one of the chapters of the duel with Horus makes more sense. Perhaps Horus is manipulating Ferrus into talking to the angels to lead him to Lupercal Court.

 

There's a lot more in the dialogue that can be dissonant. For example, when Ferrus mentions that Ruin's four remaining thrones correspond to Sanguinius, Dorn, Valdor, and Emperor, he only mentions Valdor and says "bloody Constantin". Perhaps I haven't read much about Ferrus, and I don't know if Ferrus Manus himself had any particular views on Valdor. But the heartfelt word "body" here is more like Horus' vehement statement in 5:xii that "Constantin envy me and my brother."

 

And in his conversations with the angels, Ferrus is always very complete in his answers to questions about Horus, quick and daring in his judgements. For example:

“I knew we could count on you, Sanguinius,’ his voice says from somewhere. ‘You understand.’

‘I do,’ says Sanguinius. ‘Does he? Does… Horus?’

‘Not even slightly,’ Ferrus hisses.”(6:xxv)

 

In the 8:v duel, the Angel's raid on him in Horus' view looks like this: “Another strike. A good one. That would have disembowelled Angron. That would have sheared the Pale King’s heart in two. That would have taken Ferrus’ head from his shoulders.”

When I first read it, I wondered why Ferrus was being compared to the two traitors, as if Horus thought Ferrus was on his side.

 

Last but not least, Angel's attitude towards Ferrus. In the dialogue between the two, the angel not only does not directly address the other as "Ferrus", but also does not acknowledge the existence of the other. He says:

"What are you?" Sanguinius says. 'I do not think you are my lost brother at all.”(6:xxv)

“You’re dead.”, “I am”, “Yet I see you”, “And you don’t trust that,”, “I do not,”(6:xv)

“If you are a trick of the warp,’ he says, ‘you’re a good one.”(6:xxviii)

 

And to finish off, I quote a description from GH's book The Lost and the Damned, this is what Abaddon see during the meeting:

“The Warmaster sat tigid on his throne, looking off into hidden worlds, not blinking, smiling knowingly, dull eyes oblibious to all that went on around him. The cracked skull of Ferrus Manus sitting on the throne’s armrest had more presence than the Warmaster at the moment, staring with empty-eyed defiance over the gathering.”

 

This is the first time I've posted in the community to discuss a book, so I hope I'm not doing anything wrong. I'm curious to know what people think about this theory.

Edited November 5, 2023 by DBOA_ioopic

[EverythingIsGreat]

15 hours ago, Just123456 said:

I wanted to ask, what made you think there was never an official origin story for the Emperor? Almost anyone who thinks that has never read Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned. Almost anyone, anyway. 

 

Lexicanum precisely cited Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned for the shaman backstory, Sensei and Star Child, and Lexicanum also precisely cited all of the page numbers for the shaman backstory, Sensei and Star lore in Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned. Lexicanum is strictly moderated, being so strict that the moderator team only allows approved admins. 

 

 

Its not my intention to come off as patronizing, but some people seem to think the shaman backstory is nothing more than a theory, which probably originated from Luetin09, who didn't actually say that in context and is not reliable just as most 40k YouTube channels are not reliable. 

 

That is what I personally think, anyway. As I had wondered about why some people came to think the shaman backstory was nothing more than a theory. 

 

I will reply, but I believe it's better to put this subtopic to bed.

 

The short answer is I forgot how definitive the 1st edition had been on this. Not remembering it was so concrete, I thought the shaman backstory/emperor age was character- rather than IP- viewpoint. In my defense, as noted earlier, GW often mixes tentative (character) statements into authoritative (IP) ones. A good example are the two paragraphs of “The Emperor is Born” section that was discussed earlier in this thread. The second paragraph doesn’t have the authority of the first. Too many conditional/subtly speculative statements in it.