The End and the Death Part I, II, III, ...

[the empress]

thought i'd briefly drop by the bolt now that the heresy series has reached full compliance to see what the reaction has been; nice to see everyone's stayed in character since the last time i was here. moonreaper keep mooning 

 

weirdly what's prompted this response is the loken biz. like DC i don't think they had a well fleshed out plan - which i reckon was impossible since the series was growing and changing book by book - but not only was the character always intended to return ... they almost changed their mind, wanting to keep him dead because readers loved the end of "galaxy in flames" so much

 

that might explain the length of time it took to bring the last luna wolf back 

[Marshal Rohr]

2 hours ago, the empress said:

thought i'd briefly drop by the bolt now that the heresy series has reached full compliance to see what the reaction has been; nice to see everyone's stayed in character since the last time i was here. moonreaper keep mooning 

 

weirdly what's prompted this response is the loken biz. like DC i don't think they had a well fleshed out plan - which i reckon was impossible since the series was growing and changing book by book - but not only was the character always intended to return ... they almost changed their mind, wanting to keep him dead because readers loved the end of "galaxy in flames" so much

 

that might explain the length of time it took to bring the last luna wolf back 

Who were you? 

[the empress]

38 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Who were you? 

 

mc warhammer

 

i wasn't attempting to be mysterious, i used auto login on my phone but forgot that i created a new account when my old one stopped working for some reason. i didn't even realise i'd signed in under this lovely new (throwaway) name until just now

 

but hi

 

back to the loken stuff was from the old heresy editor on the first expedition boards...i think he mentioned the pre galaxy in flames story notes on qruze's arc too

 

coupled with the fact that a lot of the early heresy writers like dan left for a while, i think it's safe to say that whatever plans were in the works went through some changes. i remember adb said on here that there were a bunch of intended books that never ended up being written for various reasons

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wecanhaveallthree]

Roomsky, you have made many demands of Rob, so now - in your turn - you are demanded to explain your reaction to his excellent and heartfelt points about Horus 'The Best Character In This Story*' Aximand. 

 

*

Spoiler

It's actually Shadrak Meduson, but never mind that.

 

Edited February 15, 2024 by wecanhaveallthree
destroy all lokens

[Roomsky]

Good to have you back mc warhammer, I'd feared you were gone for good.

 

re: Aximand. I'll be honest, I probably can't be objective regarding Aximand, years of people discussing him as if Galaxy in Flames were his last pre-siege appearance kind of poisoned that well for me. Little Horus is a great short story and it's very much about the character's decision to fully embrace what the legion had become; Loken was a poor choice to be Abaddon's opposite during the Siege but I wouldn't want Aximand to backslide into his doubtful phase either. Despite his mild trepidation in Vengeful Spirit, he still spent that book being a stone-cold bastard and I like him that way. I would have preferred another member of the legion be a reasonable, horrified voice instead. If only we had such a character, one who had expressed worry about Horus' state and wasn't killed in Saturnine. One who had already received quite a bit of focus and character development...

 

On a completely unrelated note, too bad Abnett used Argonis not at all, huh?

[Dornfist]

9 hours ago, Roomsky said:

Found it!

 

 

This is an interview from 2010 where he says he "would never allow" Loken to be killed off. 

 

Also, he's answering a question by a "Duke Leto" in that very interview .

Oh my Force!!! I remember watching this video years ago: Mr. Abnett now has a bushier and longer heretical beard haha. Thank you for the blast from the past!

 

I do like that he had a plan for Loken, as he probably realized his importance to the story (and wrapped that up mostly nicely imo). I also remember reading a review, I think on Amazon, regarding something of Loken's return where this person met Mr. Abnett and expressed their sadness over Loken's "demise" in "Galaxy in Flames", to which apparently Mr. Abnett looked at them and asked "Was there a body?" or something to that effect.

 

So it sounds to me the plan was there. Maybe a little haphazard, but the last loyal Luna Wolf was going to have a role moving forwards and I feel he played a beautiful and final role in the finale...

Spoiler

but damn Erebus to hell though...I also don't like that whole Samus connection to Loken's death then and there on the Spirit.

 

Edited February 15, 2024 by Dornfist

[Dornfist]

14 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

Roomsky, you have made many demands of Rob, so now - in your turn - you are demanded to explain your reaction to his excellent and heartfelt points about Horus 'The Best Character In This Story*' Aximand. 

 

*

  Reveal hidden contents

It's actually Shadrak Meduson, but never mind that.

 

I love Meduson soooo much! I even wrote a mini essay about him for fun hahah. I wish he had been around longer, as "Old Earth" I believe was the only full-length novel he featured in outside all those Shattered Legions short stories. What an incredible character...I'm just glad someone got Tybalt in the end.

Edited February 15, 2024 by Dornfist

[TheArtilleryman]

1 hour ago, Dornfist said:

I'm just glad someone got Tybalt in the end.

Yeah it was Romeo

[wecanhaveallthree]

Too soon, Artilleryman. Too soon. RIP Prince of Cats.

 

Meduson was, for me, a perfect example of really well done OC in the HH. No magic powers, no Enuncia, no immortality - just a Space Marine doing his best while coming to terms with the reality of SpaceDad and how his Legion is breaking apart, betrayal within and without, how to move forward, etc. Very handsome man, no doubt about that.

 

Quote

Little Horus is a great short story and it's very much about the character's decision to fully embrace what the legion had become

 

I would vote for Little Horus as the best short of the Heresy. Serpent Beneath is a novella, IIRC, but would be a very close second.

 

But I wholly disagree with you, Roomsky! From hell's heart I stab at thee! 

 

Little Horus, in my mind, is Aximand not embracing anything at all. It's him literally losing his identity (along with his face - I love how Abnett wrote the 'now he's got his face literally stitched back on, he looks more like Horus than ever!' that's themes, that is). Through the short he's trying to reconcile the Luna Wolves of old with what they've become, and he's in denial, he's just appeasing Abaddon and Horus, he's clinging to the familiar, the old, the rituals and the brotherhood that used to exist. Through the short we're given that changing spiel about how he's an 'aspect of change', of sweeping away the old, how he's totally fine with that, haha, he's totally not sad or scared or anything at all:

 

Quote

 The melancholic humour is misunderstood. You think too literally. It has, in fact, the quality of autumn. It is the spirit of contemplative change, the accelerator of death, the enabler of ends and beginnings. Autumn clears away the world so that a new one may rise. This is my purpose. I am not sad. 

 

He's remade at the end, remade in a new image - but he never made that choice. Slaves to Darkness backs this up as well. Aximand is more than simply conflicted, he's paralysed, he is wholly incapable of moving forward but he knows he can never go back, either. Aximand was the face (heh heh) of, I think, more than a few Traitors who found the rebellion they'd signed up for turning dark and ugly and corrupt, but not knowing how to turn back, not knowing how to get away from it. I loved Little Horus because it showed the utter helplessness of those who had doubts in the Traitor cause. 

 

It's also some of Abnett's absolute best work, full of incredible imagery and metaphor and some serious, serious subtlety. Like Aximand only seeing the Warmaster, not Horus, any more, and refers to him as such consistently. THAT'S THEMES, THAT IS.

[Rob P]

Putting aside my dislike of the character direction of Little Horus from Abnett, I cannot deny Abnett's way with words - miles above the other authors in the stable.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Much as I like what was done with Meduson, I just can’t get over how stupid his name is. For so long, the only real Iron Hands character in the entire Heresy series was Captain Meduson, the guy from planet Medusa, making him Medusan. It feels like a deliberate snub when the EotD introduced a new Iron Hands character, Sergeant Medusi. 

[DukeLeto69]

14 minutes ago, Lord_Caerolion said:

Much as I like what was done with Meduson, I just can’t get over how stupid his name is. For so long, the only real Iron Hands character in the entire Heresy series was Captain Meduson, the guy from planet Medusa, making him Medusan. It feels like a deliberate snub when the EotD introduced a new Iron Hands character, Sergeant Medusi. 

Do they greet each other by saying “My Dude Sir”

[Etruscan]

1 hour ago, Lord_Caerolion said:

Much as I like what was done with Meduson, I just can’t get over how stupid his name is. For so long, the only real Iron Hands character in the entire Heresy series was Captain Meduson, the guy from planet Medusa, making him Medusan. It feels like a deliberate snub when the EotD introduced a new Iron Hands character, Sergeant Medusi. 

 

I agree it's a daft name but he was born in Albia on Terra as far as I remember. I think he took the last name Meduson in tribute to the Legion's homeward.

[Cerbero666]

9 hours ago, Etruscan said:

 

I agree it's a daft name but he was born in Albia on Terra as far as I remember. I think he took the last name Meduson in tribute to the Legion's homeward.

 

Yes, he took the name Meduson as a tribute to Medusa. His original name was Smyth. 

[Marshal Rohr]

Isn’t Lorgar “running from Daemon Corax” a Reddit meme? I’d like to see the exact phrasing of whatever it comes from, in the text it comes from. Feels an awful lot like the Abaddon has no arms BS. 

Edited February 16, 2024 by Marshal Rohr

[DarkChaplain]

I recently listened to that short story, it's in Sons of the Emperor. Corax basically embraced his nature as a being partially of the warp. He probably knows and realizes more about the Primarch project than any of his brothers, though his meeting with Russ at Yarant probably added the final nail in his coffin. So he's sworn to eradicate the traitor primarchs and is hunting for Lorgar first, taking his previous shadow talents to eleven. Basically, he's a non-Chaos warp entity, on par with daemon primarchs.

 

Lorgar is meanwhile having some sort of ritual going, and has also already ascended by this point in history (funny, since that was supposed to happen at Terra...). They duke it out, though Lorgar obviously is underprepared for it, not being properly dressed for the occasion and such. He's also maintaining a sort of portal with his will, so he may not be fully focused, even ritual aside. Corax gets the upper hand and wounds Lorgar by stabbing him with his talons, but they crash to the ground, leaving a crater. Lorgar is battered, then uses warp magic to retreat through the portal, leaving Corax behind the barrier, also battered.

 

Lorgar then leaves his followers, including Marduk, behind and cloisters himself, Kor Phaeron arriving just after. It is unclear if this is the beginning of his millennia-long meditations or something else. The story ends there.

Edited February 16, 2024 by DarkChaplain

[Corinthus]

I finally read Volume II and III from start to end. I finished them last night. It was emotional, especially the afterword. As I turned the book down I was hit with the realization that the journey of the Heresy is over. I entered the universe painting minis as a kid and now, after 20+ years these books feel like closure for an important chunk of my life.

 

I will now read all your reviews an opinions and I'll try to share mine also, but I have to say I wasn't expecting all these feelings. Have a great day, fraters.

[DukeLeto69]

1 hour ago, Corinthus said:

I finally read Volume II and III from start to end. I finished them last night. It was emotional, especially the afterword. As I turned the book down I was hit with the realization that the journey of the Heresy is over. I entered the universe painting minis as a kid and now, after 20+ years these books feel like closure for an important chunk of my life.

 

I will now read all your reviews an opinions and I'll try to share mine also, but I have to say I wasn't expecting all these feelings. Have a great day, fraters.

If you have avoided everyone’s reviews up until now then I would say carry on avoiding. Whatever experience the books gave you is unique to you so savour it. If you read what others have said (inc me) you’ll just get depressed. At the end of the day it is pretty much mostly subjective.

[Corinthus]

2 hours ago, DukeLeto69 said:

If you have avoided everyone’s reviews up until now then I would say carry on avoiding. Whatever experience the books gave you is unique to you so savour it. If you read what others have said (inc me) you’ll just get depressed. At the end of the day it is pretty much mostly subjective.

 

Oh I'm not worried about confronting opinions. I want to see your takes and conclusions.

I have to say that I enjoyed the ride, especially the last Volume but I have questions about the loose ends. Which character wasn't name-checked as Abnett said in the Afterword? I came up with Omegon, Land, and maybe Sevatar but I don't know whom he meant.

Edited February 16, 2024 by Corinthus
spelling

[EverythingIsGreat]

2 hours ago, Corinthus said:

Which character wasn't name-checked as Abnett said in the Afterword?

 

I took it to mean the Dramatis Personae from Horus Rising. If that's the case, perhaps Eidolon or Lucius is the one. My speculation.

 

Glad you read the Afterword. It is almost as important as the novel itself (I mean The End and the Death the entire work, not the artificial parts it was divided into for reasons unrelated with the exposition). It was a bit amusing to see Abnett having to expressly state that all character POV (including Malcador's) is unreliable witness as far as the lore is concerned. Maybe he's reading fan boards where people constantly miss the distinction. He also states in so many words that the novel is supposed to be an immersive experience, happening "now" for both reader and characters. That explains a hell of a lot about the characters' development. A couple of philosophical statements are a bit... pedestrian imo (especially the well-trodden part about imagination being a distinguishing human element... it is like a politician saying that everything is politics or a biologist claiming everything is DNA-related, obviously an author would proclaim the same about her/his main tool).

 

The Afterword is important enough to merit a review of its own. I'd write one, but maybe not.

[Blood Angel Scout]

I thought it was Malcador whose name was missing from the dramatis of Volume 3 though not got my copy handy to double check. 

[EverythingIsGreat]

I don't think TEATD's DP is what he means, I could be wrong. From the context, I assumed it would have been any "named" character Abnett included in the DPs of his  HH books. Horus Rising seemed the most probable place to look. The non-name checked character "would have been there" (at TEATD). That doesn't mean s/he was.

 

[Roomsky]

On 2/15/2024 at 12:54 AM, wecanhaveallthree said:

Little Horus, in my mind, is Aximand not embracing anything at all. It's him literally losing his identity (along with his face - I love how Abnett wrote the 'now he's got his face literally stitched back on, he looks more like Horus than ever!' that's themes, that is). Through the short he's trying to reconcile the Luna Wolves of old with what they've become, and he's in denial, he's just appeasing Abaddon and Horus, he's clinging to the familiar, the old, the rituals and the brotherhood that used to exist. Through the short we're given that changing spiel about how he's an 'aspect of change', of sweeping away the old, how he's totally fine with that, haha, he's totally not sad or scared or anything at all:

 

He's remade at the end, remade in a new image - but he never made that choice. Slaves to Darkness backs this up as well. Aximand is more than simply conflicted, he's paralysed, he is wholly incapable of moving forward but he knows he can never go back, either. Aximand was the face (heh heh) of, I think, more than a few Traitors who found the rebellion they'd signed up for turning dark and ugly and corrupt, but not knowing how to turn back, not knowing how to get away from it. I loved Little Horus because it showed the utter helplessness of those who had doubts in the Traitor cause. 

 

So I went and re-read Little Horus. If indeed the story is his response to being powerless in the face of his legion's embracing Chaos, I read it as him essentially throwing himself into it. Aximand can't get off Mr. Horus' Wild Ride at this point so his going "no, check it out, I'm more Horus-y than ever!" I don't think that's conducive to his becoming the naysayer at the Siege - rather, he should be more lost in the sauce than Abaddon by that point. Overcompensating + Chaos = many tentacles.

 

I also gave more notice to the breathing that follows him around throughout. Almost like there's a man beside him. I wonder how long Abnett really had that twist cooking, because paranoia and guilt alone don't really account for it being Loken that he sees following him. If it were purely in his own mind, it would've been Tarik, non?

[wecanhaveallthree]

Good catch: that's certainly a possibility, and I really like the idea.

 

I like it so much I'm gonna steal it and post it on Reddit!

[Tymell]

Well, that's it I guess.

 

My feelings on Volume III, like all of them (and honestly, like the Siege and even the Heresy as a whole) are mixed.

 

On the one hand, I feel Volume III is the best of the three. It's by far the most focused, with a good deal of its time spent, understandably, on the big Emperor vs. Horus fight. Where the narrative does cut away, it feels natural for the most part, to keep the flow going and continue on with some of the other threads established.

 

Spoiler

For me, that fight itself is excellent, a highlight of the entire Heresy series. It remains fixed on the Emperor and Horus, yet manages to feel suitably epic and grand in scale. In a (3-volume) book plagued with bloat, I very rarely felt my interest waning during this battle, despite it running on for over a third of the book's total page count.

 

About the only moment I can think of that I didn't take to was the bit where they fought with the tarot cards. Not because it was "too silly" or anything, I just couldn't get invested since the slew of cards didn't really mean much to me. It felt like watching a poker game without knowing the rules: you get some idea of what's good and bad, but you can't really get properly engaged because most of it just doesn't mean much to you.

 

However, that particular bit doesn't last long and, as I say, I found the rest to be wonderfully gripping and creative. They "parry" with places from their history, battle one another simultaneously many times over with aspects, shed "years" as much as blood, and throughout it all there's a good balance with the more gritty bits of "normal" combat. It strikes a good balance, not getting carried away with those metaphysical aspects such that it loses weight, but using them to keep the pace going, build things up, and hold your interest. I also appreciate the way, as Horus himself notes, the emphasis feels on how the Emperor uses his power rather than his raw strength.

 

This fight is the capstone of the series, what it's all been building to, and I can honestly say I came out happy with it. I won't say it was perfect, but this was a pivotal moment for the Heresy and 40k's history itself, and there was plenty of room for it to be done badly. I think Abnett managed to pull it off with style. A bit more dialogue between the two of them might have been nice, but we did get some good dialogue between Horus and Loken. I especially liked the talk of how the Emperor fought to not become exactly what Horus is. The idea that the Emperor's biggest struggle was against his own ego and hunger for power, and that's a struggle Horus lost, giving in and accepting that easy path to power.

 

Oh, and Leetu defending Sanguinius' body against daemonic scavengers was a cool scene too, though I would've preferred seeing Loken do that since he'd had an encounter with the Angel previously way back in Horus Rising.

 

Now, all that said, I found the rest of the book around that fight to vary from "fine" down to "ugh, no".

 

All the stuff with Fo was utterly pointless. No, I don't care if it references something in some 40k book I haven't read or that will come along further down the line. Throwing in some little one line reference or something, fine, but they wasted a significant chunk of time here and in previous books of the Siege on this absolute tumour of a plot thread. It goes absolutely nowhere, contributes absolutely nothing, and amounts to, you guessed it, absolutely nothing. It's an unforgivable waste of everyone's time, and it's especially galling to read Abnett talking about how big this ended up being when he patently could've cut this entire subplot and lost nothing. It's made even worse when Fo somehow managed to mix up an entire human clone and put his own mind into it without anyone noticing. Sorry, but feth off. I'll take another three novels of perpetuals or Keeler and Sindermann over a single word more about Basilio Fo.

 

The set-up mentions for 40k also fell very flat for me. I expected some kind of reveal of the archivist's name, since they were so pointedly avoiding giving her one for so long, but when it was said to be Lilian Chase, I just blinked and shrugged. It meant nothing to me. I've read the Eisenhorn and Ravenor books, so when I googled it I did recognise it, but still, this big moment of revelation had nothing like the impact it was clearly supposed to.

 

Similarly, I guess Actae/Kat taking a Moriana name is supposed to hint at her as becoming Abaddon's seer later on, or at least as a potential candidate for that? Meh. Again, the name didn't click with me at first, and even when I later reminded myself of it, it still didn't interest me. This one isn't helped by the fact that I still don't like Cyrene/Actae being crowbarred in here. To me, in the Siege anyway, she's felt like one of the most wildly inconsistent nothingburgers of a character. Her scene with Dorn felt especially bizarre and awkward.

 

Loken being stabbed in the back by Erebus I don't mind so much (though I would've preferred if we left Loken's final fate as a mystery), but I'm so over Samus at this point and the idea of Loken's murder birthing him does absolutely nothing for me.

 

Just as Horus dies there's a whole "this is how the long slide into 40k begins" bit that I really didn't care for. It felt too heavy-handed and awkward, like some of the author's afterword literally crammed into Horus' death. It doesn't last for that long, but I remember it really bugging me when I got to it.

 

Keeler leading her massive pilgrimage against the Death Guard felt like it was meant to be this big cathartic moment, but I wasn't feeling it. The regular people hadn't done enough other than traipsing around for me to really care, and the practical part of my brain read Keeler saying "they can't kill us all", and just thought, "I'm pretty sure they can…"

 

Oll's end felt a bit anti-climactic, I guess in part because his desperate defence of the Emperor felt a bit out of place. I get that it was for the good of humanity as a whole, but it still lacked the emotional resonance of Olly Piers standing up to Angron, or even Dusk's defence of the Emperor in this same book. And Grammaticus using one of Sanguinius' feathers to cut his way through space…nah. I'm not in on that one, sorry.

 

I liked the defence of the mountain against the Death Guard. Typhus riding up in a daemonic necro-chariot was honestly awesome (and makes me wish he had this as an actual option for his model), and the re-lighting of the Astronomicon was a great moment, though I would've liked if this had been emphasised as a goal for longer. Leetu getting tossed to the feet of the Chaos Gods was also a great moment, I kind of wish he'd just ended there, honestly.

 

Sorry this post's a big rambling, but I guess this whole set of books was too, so maybe that fits. In summary for Volume III, I really liked the title fight itself, but most everything else around it dragged the book down, either falling flat or outright annoying me, with one or two exceptions.

 

And I still stand by this absolutely not needing to be three volumes, sorry Dan. If it was Nick Kyme as editor who allowed that, then they needed a better editor for this, because any editor worth their time could've cut so much of this out. If they'd cut all the fat away from this, had a single beefy volume with the better parts of Vol. I, the Sanguinius fight from Vol. II and the Emperor fight from Vol. III, plus some of the better side-stories hammered more into shape, this could've been one of the best books of the series.