Aggressors or Terminators?

[Dracos]

As much as I think it’s the best way mathematically, given the current set of rules it’s  hard to make PPM comparisons since we have to it our units by the batch. It would be nice to buy 3+2 Aggressors and make this comparison but as is we have to balance is it better to but unit A at a greater cost than unit B and for ego the points for purchasing a unit C or is A so good we settle for two units instead of three?

 

Of course as Orange Knight said and I plan on myself it really isn’t an either or necessarily. I plan on having both but if one is proving on the table top to outshine the other for its points it would be nice to see a point correction. 
 

As is I’m afraid Terminator points are going to skyrocket come next set of GW adjustments. 

[jaxom]

54 minutes ago, Dracos said:

As much as I think it’s the best way mathematically, given the current set of rules it’s  hard to make PPM comparisons since we have to it our units by the batch.

Very true. I think it also means it's harder to ask, "what could we use that point difference to afford elswhere in the army?"

[Tacitus]

People aren't taking mid size units: That's because you pay Max Size Points for Medium Size Units.   5 Aggressors and 6 Aggressors cost the same based on what the app is telling us. 

 

6 Aggressors cost more than 5 Terminators because Aggressors can put out more/better shooting and have T6 which changes some significant portion of the threat band for Heavy Infantry - S5 wounds on 5's now, S6 wounds on 4's. 

 

Its not really a no-brainer picking between them - and may even be worthwhile to have both. 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Tacitus

[Malakithe]

21 hours ago, Dracos said:

As is I’m afraid Terminator points are going to skyrocket come next set of GW adjustments. 

If their points skyrocket there will probably be a massive shift into Aggressors 

[Orange Knight]

Terminators aren't setting the tabletop on fire. Why would their cost skyrocket?

[Tacitus]

I suspect a points cut for Terminators more than a points hike. 

[Dracos]

If they would get off this buy models by the batch instead of 3 + (1-3), or 5 + (1-5) then I’d say they are just about right where they are. 
 

I blame the American education system. GW probably feels they need to hold our hands when if comes to math (and engineering)

 

(personal frustration with US school systems as a teacher here)

 

 

Edited August 26, 2023 by Dracos

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Gravis marines more durable than terminators it looks like.

 

 

[Paladin777]

Not really. Heavy intercessors (and specifically heavy intercessors, which are only 3/5 the points of aggressors) are more durable than terminators on a point-per-point basis (which is admittedly pretty cool!).

 

As such that isn't a good example for the debate going on here because it's specifically about aggressors vs terminators, not gravis vs terminators. 

 

if anything, when you translate that 3/5 amount to aggressors, it handily illustrates just how much more durable terminators are than aggressors against most shooting.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Paladin777

[Paladin777]

Let's compare true like for like for a moment. 
 

A squad of 5 terminators is 205 points

 

a squad of 3 aggressors is 110. This gives you 95 points to play with if you were to make that swap. If you were to add in a squad if 5 intercessors, you would more shooting as well as more tactical flexibility than the terminators, at the expense of sheer staying power. 
 

Both options have the exact same resource expenditure, and all options involved are MSU, making it a pretty fair comparison to me!

 

whether you want the extra firepower and flexibility or the durability is up to the player, and neither option is wrong. 

Edited August 27, 2023 by Paladin777

[casb1965]

On 8/24/2023 at 2:41 AM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I’m comparing minimum sized squads. It makes no sense to compare a max sized squad to a minimum sized squad.

So your comparing 2 units, one of which is 86% more expensive but not doing 86% more damage. 

 

And if you want to compare units of similar cost 3 Aggressors and a Captain in Gravis armour is the same cost as a unit of 5 Terminators, now compare the damage and use the assumption that the Captain always buffs the unit he's in with a 0CP stratagem.

Edited August 27, 2023 by casb1965

[unrealchamp88]

After reading the comments in here, I wonder if GW will take a slight turn in the design and rule philosophy of Gravis and Terminator units going forward. Its clear that Terminators are tougher than Gravis, which is fine and makes sense.

 

Maybe the path to make would be have Gravis embody a more heavy hitting/damage output design and Terminators be about resilience and staying power (the proverbial 'hammer and anvil' almost). 

[Helias_Tancred]

I use both. They both have different specialties I've found. I run a squad of boltstorm aggressors with a biologis, and I usually run a squad of Deathwing terminators (of one of the variants for DA).

 

[Tacitus]

16 hours ago, unrealchamp88 said:

After reading the comments in here, I wonder if GW will take a slight turn in the design and rule philosophy of Gravis and Terminator units going forward. Its clear that Terminators are tougher than Gravis, which is fine and makes sense.

 

Maybe the path to make would be have Gravis embody a more heavy hitting/damage output design and Terminators be about resilience and staying power (the proverbial 'hammer and anvil' almost). 

Pretty sure that's what they have already done.  But I also wouldn't unilaterally say Terminators are tougher than Gravis.  There's likely some niche cases where that's not true.  S3, S10 leap to mind. 

[Paladin777]

Keep in mind that terminators have a 2+/4++ and gravis only has a 3+. 
 

against S3 AP 0, that extra pip of save makes them even Steven. 
 

most S10 saves are going to be AP -2 or more. That'll drop the gravis to a 5+ save, or a 4+ in cover, while terminators will have the 4+, or a 3+ in cover. It gets worse for the gravis as the AP gets higher, as the terminators will keep the 4+ save while gravis keeps getting worse. 
 

so I'm sure there are some combinations of S and AP where gravis is indeed better, I think they're gonna be fewer, and less pronounced that you might expect.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

55 minutes ago, Paladin777 said:

Keep in mind that terminators have a 2+/4++ and gravis only has a 3+. 
 

against S3 AP 0, that extra pip of save makes them even Steven. 
 

most S10 saves are going to be AP -2 or more. That'll drop the gravis to a 5+ save, or a 4+ in cover, while terminators will have the 4+, or a 3+ in cover. It gets worse for the gravis as the AP gets higher, as the terminators will keep the 4+ save while gravis keeps getting worse. 
 

so I'm sure there are some combinations of S and AP where gravis is indeed better, I think they're gonna be fewer, and less pronounced that you might expect.

And against S5 aggressors likely fair better

[Dracos]

My current list due to the point decreases is going to consist of two units each of Aggressors and Terminators. 
 

Gravis Tactics

5 (x2) Terminators will generally deep strike with 3 (x2) Plasma Inceptors as support on the flanks while the 2 units of 6 Aggressors make a push in toward the middle supported by two units of 3 Eradicators on their far edges looking to hunt vehicles. The center also will be supported by 6 Bolter Inceptors.  Meanwhile the three units of Heavy Intercessors will be “rushing” to cover three Objectives. 

[Paladin777]

11 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

And against S5 aggressors likely fair better

Depends on the AP. 
 

the following numbers assume 12 hits for relatively easy math. 
 

against AP0 the termies take 1 wound while the aggressors take 1.33

 

against AP-1 they both take 2 wounds

 

against AP-2 the termies take 3 wound while the aggressors take 2.66

 

against AP-3 the termies still take 3 wound while the aggressors take 3.33

 

so even at a S value that seems like the aggressors should have the edge, they don't!

 

aggressors are a hammer, termies are an anvil. 

Edited September 11, 2023 by Paladin777

[Paladin777]

11 hours ago, Dracos said:

My current list due to the point decreases is going to consist of two units each of Aggressors and Terminators. 
 

Gravis Tactics

5 (x2) Terminators will generally deep strike with 3 (x2) Plasma Inceptors as support on the flanks while the 2 units of 6 Aggressors make a push in toward the middle supported by two units of 3 Eradicators on their far edges looking to hunt vehicles. The center also will be supported by 6 Bolter Inceptors.  Meanwhile the three units of Heavy Intercessors will be “rushing” to cover three Objectives. 

I ant to run a list like this really badly. I just don't have the models ready yet. 
 

I'd also like to include a some dreadnaughts as well. 

[DemonGSides]

The 6 man aggressor unit with attached Apothecary Biologis is like, my auto include in every SM list I'm putting together.  It's just so delicious.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

11 hours ago, Paladin777 said:

Depends on the AP. 
 

the following numbers assume 12 hits for relatively easy math. 
 

against AP0 the termies take 1 wound while the aggressors take 1.33

 

against AP-1 they both take 2 wounds

 

against AP-2 the termies take 3 wound while the aggressors take 2.66

 

against AP-3 the termies still take 3 wound while the aggressors take 3.33

 

so even at a S value that seems like the aggressors should have the edge, they don't!

 

aggressors are a hammer, termies are an anvil. 

Considering S5 AP-3 isn’t common I’m not too worried about it.

 

does that profile even exist at all?

[Dracos]

12 hours ago, Paladin777 said:

I ant to run a list like this really badly. I just don't have the models ready yet. 
 

I'd also like to include a some dreadnaughts as well. 

I feel ya. If I am too alter this substantially it would be to add a Crusader or Redeemer Landraider. Maybe they’ll be in stock by Christmas lol

 

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Considering S5 AP-3 isn’t common I’m not too worried about it.

 

does that profile even exist at all?

If it does, it’s an Eldar weapon 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Dracos

[Paladin777]

13 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Considering S5 AP-3 isn’t common I’m not too worried about it.

 

does that profile even exist at all?

That's fair. However, terminators are still 33% tougher against ap0 weapons, the same against AP 1weapons, and only 9% less durable against AP2 weapons that are s5 specifically, which is a strength that specifically favors the gravis!

Edited September 12, 2023 by Paladin777

[Tacitus]

It's not S5, but it is -3 - The Aggressors themselves can rip up the Terminators.

[Paladin777]

Depends on who gets the charge, really, but they're pretty even!
 

190 points for 5 termies is close enough to 200 points for the aggressors in my book to compare the two reasonably fairly.
 

5 unbuffed terminators with fists will, on average take out 2 aggressors, leaving 4 models.
 

6 unbuffed aggressors will do the same to the terminators, leaving three. 
 

 

if you use OoM, the numbers end up a little different.

 

5 OoM terminators will kill 4.5 aggressors on average, leaving 1 and 1 wounded.

 

6 OoM aggressors will kill 3 terminators on average, leaving 2. 
 

so honestly, they're pretty well balanced when facing each other.