Aggressors or Terminators?

[Dracos]

I want to thank everyone’s input. I feel very comfortable now including two of each unit in my ”Gravis” Infantry theme. Maybe I should just call it Heavy Infantry build. 

[DemonGSides]

I like the idea of "Heavy Armored Vanguard" formation.

[Orange Knight]

Copied from another topic:

 

 

I think the Aggressors have overtaken the Terminators again.

 

3 things to consider:

 

1: The WS of Aggressors went up to 3+ with their Power Fists.

 

2: They have the Twin Linked rule in close combat.

 

3: They have better shooting.

 

 

Obviously they aren't quite as durable, but they are now a lot more offensively reliable. I think they are one of the big winners from the infantry in the codex, especially following the Oath nerf. Terminators were also hit with a nerfed "Fury of the First" rule

[Tacitus]

On 9/12/2023 at 9:49 AM, Dracos said:

I want to thank everyone’s input. I feel very comfortable now including two of each unit in my ”Gravis” Infantry theme. Maybe I should just call it Heavy Infantry build. 

I'm not sure about two of each.  That's a LOT of points in four units, and you can't really double up the gimmick on the Aggressors with only one able to take the enhancement. 

[Dracos]

True enough but I have a Tor Garadon (unbuilt so far) for the second unit.  It’s not quite like having a Hulk but it’s close lol

[jaxom]

15 hours ago, Tacitus said:

I'm not sure about two of each.  That's a LOT of points in four units, and you can't really double up the gimmick on the Aggressors with only one able to take the enhancement. 

I'd say what Garadon misses (from not having Fire Discipline) is made up for with him having a much better melee profile than the GrApothecary. Helps differentiate roles in my opnion.

[Dracos]

So ouch. Aggressors went up 10% and Terminators went down in cost. That takes what seemed a fairly even cost per model effectiveness and leans it pretty hard into the Termonators ….or does it with the nerf to OoM?  I don’t think the detachments make much of a shift seeing as I wouldn’t use First Company on a bet. 

[Karhedron]

Yes Agressors went up in price but their WS went up from 4+ to 3+ which is a 33% increase in melee killing power. I think that they are still a worthwhile pick.

[Orange Knight]

14 minutes ago, Dracos said:

So ouch. Aggressors went up 10% and Terminators went down in cost. That takes what seemed a fairly even cost per model effectiveness and leans it pretty hard into the Termonators ….or does it with the nerf to OoM?  I don’t think the detachments make much of a shift seeing as I wouldn’t use First Company on a bet. 

 

Aggressors weren't affected by the Oath nerf. They still get to re-roll wounds in shooting AND combat.

 

That, in combination with WS 3+ makes them better than Terminators.

 

That isn't to say that they are going to rule the meta or anything. It's simply an internal comparison. 

[Paladin777]

They reroll less than half their shooting to-wound rolls on average. 
 

3 from the bolters, which do get a  reroll, and 3.5 (+ blast) from the grenades, which don't.

 

Still good, but I thought it worth noting.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Paladin777

[Malakithe]

6 hours ago, Dracos said:

So ouch. Aggressors went up 10% and Terminators went down in cost. That takes what seemed a fairly even cost per model effectiveness and leans it pretty hard into the Termonators ….or does it with the nerf to OoM?  I don’t think the detachments make much of a shift seeing as I wouldn’t use First Company on a bet. 

Flame Aggressors in a Firestorm Detachment want a word with you

[Dracos]

That would require me to open/build the 6 Flamestorm Aggressors in my grey pile of shame to go with the 12 Boltstorms already doing work 

[Malakithe]

2 hours ago, Dracos said:

That would require me to open/build the 6 Flamestorm Aggressors in my grey pile of shame to go with the 12 Boltstorms already doing work 

Just use them as count as for now. Also give them a Redeemer ride. Or...keep them Boltstorm and just give them a ride. No one is going to shoot that thing out fear of the strat for jump out, pew pew, jump back in

[Dracos]

I would be more than happy to add a Redeemer as a centerpiece to the army …. if I could find one for sale (NIB) 

[Paladin777]

If GW put them up for sale again I'd imagine they'd make a pretty tidy sum. 

[CCE1981]

7 hours ago, Dracos said:

I would be more than happy to add a Redeemer as a centerpiece to the army …. if I could find one for sale (NIB) 

How willing are you to pay for one from overseas.  I’m getting the one from Europe.

[Dracos]

Everyone has limits  Where in Europe 

[Paladin777]

I'm curious too. I've already got a godhammer and crusader (which both need new, red paint jobs), and completing the trifecta would be cool!

[CCE1981]

9 hours ago, Dracos said:

Everyone has limits  Where in Europe 

I am getting it commissioned from Den of Imagination in Poland.  Got tired of waiting for that and Gladiators.

[Karhedron]

This has just come up and looks rather timely. Basically it confirms the earlier hunches that Aggressors are a hammer unit and Terminators are the anvil. 

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-terminators-vs-aggressors/

[CCE1981]

That is what I am seeing in the tabletop, and it extends to ALL Gravis units.  Eradicators, Heavy Intercessors and Inceptors.  Their defenses just don’t hold up.  I have stopped taking Heavy Intercessors and Eradicators entirely.
 

 In the case of Heavy Intercessors because their rule largely only applies to ‘make sure it’s dead shooting’.  They take a bunch for middles strength, Ap-1 or -2 strength 6, 7, or 8, damage 2 or 3 shots and they fall over dead in droves.  
 

With Eradicators it’s from Overwatch, the stuff Eradicators want to kill generally has incredible overwatch itself or it’s close by to overwatch.  Add in needing 5s to Wound even with re-rolls and they becoming very dice dependent.  The mathhammer just doesn’t show itself on the table.  Their lack of durability means they get one shot, that is usually it, and then they just fall over.

 

Playing only two games with Terminators, and I have noticed they definitely don’t do as much damage, but take 2-3 times as much shooting to kill them, making them feel better to take.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, CCE1981 said:

That is what I am seeing in the tabletop, and it extends to ALL Gravis units.  Eradicators, Heavy Intercessors and Inceptors.  Their defenses just don’t hold up.  I have stopped taking Heavy Intercessors and Eradicators entirely.
 

 In the case of Heavy Intercessors because their rule largely only applies to ‘make sure it’s dead shooting’.  They take a bunch for middles strength, Ap-1 or -2 strength 6, 7, or 8, damage 2 or 3 shots and they fall over dead in droves.  
 

With Eradicators it’s from Overwatch, the stuff Eradicators want to kill generally has incredible overwatch itself or it’s close by to overwatch.  Add in needing 5s to Wound even with re-rolls and they becoming very dice dependent.  The mathhammer just doesn’t show itself on the table.  Their lack of durability means they get one shot, that is usually it, and then they just fall over.

 

Playing only two games with Terminators, and I have noticed they definitely don’t do as much damage, but take 2-3 times as much shooting to kill them, making them feel better to take.

I see HIs as a distraction unit, with some solid firepower.

 

if your enemy is using S7+ weapons that have 2-3 damage any AP, they’re shooting weapons that are intended to be used against vehicles in order to kill infantry.

if you have no tanks, then it’s no problem for your enemy to shoot them, but the second you include a dread and a stormspeeder even, your opponent has to decide where their heavier firepower will go.

 

especially if the HIs are on an objective 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[CCE1981]

The only shots I see less then that are chaff or secondary weapons.  I see Knights and ‘nids, a smattering of Eldar.  Only recently did I see a Deathguard army.  I have no room for those speeders, and Dreads a are a laughable joke that die to slightly stiff breeze, the just Redemptor wasn’t doing it’s points worth not killing enough and yeah taking two hits and being overkilled by 7 damage several games in a row didn’t help my opinion of it.  
 

Vindicators have been performing either in shooting or survival, can’t complain about the Vindicator that soaked up the opponents shooting phase and died at the end of it while the other was sniper Lone Operatives… yeah weird game he killed three Lone Operatives.  That strength shouldn’t be shooting tanks it should be shooting elites which it was what it was shooting at.  
 

Again those Heavy Intercessors their special rule only applies to damage 1 which I am seeing next to none of.  It’s almost all supplemental fire power.

[MegaVolt87]

31 minutes ago, CCE1981 said:

The only shots I see less then that are chaff or secondary weapons.  I see Knights and ‘nids, a smattering of Eldar.  Only recently did I see a Deathguard army.  I have no room for those speeders, and Dreads a are a laughable joke that die to slightly stiff breeze, the just Redemptor wasn’t doing it’s points worth not killing enough and yeah taking two hits and being overkilled by 7 damage several games in a row didn’t help my opinion of it.  
 

Vindicators have been performing either in shooting or survival, can’t complain about the Vindicator that soaked up the opponents shooting phase and died at the end of it while the other was sniper Lone Operatives… yeah weird game he killed three Lone Operatives.  That strength shouldn’t be shooting tanks it should be shooting elites which it was what it was shooting at.  
 

Again those Heavy Intercessors their special rule only applies to damage 1 which I am seeing next to none of.  It’s almost all supplemental fire power.

 

Interesting observations. I was hoping pure gravis would be viable in 10th, I have a lot of gravis units in the pile of shame. 

[FashaTheDog]

I vote Terminators. 

 

In the interest of full disclosure owning 105 Deathwing plus assorted Terminator Chaplains, Librarians, Captains/Strikemasters might make me a little biased.  To the point of not even looking at Aggressors.