Legions Imperialis & Epic hobby chat!

[DuskRaider]

Yeah, I’m a bit concerned that the game is going to fade quietly into the void. We saw it happen to Aeronautica and Titanicus, though they were allegedly killed so Legions Imperialis could carry both lines along with its own. 
 

To be fair, we’ll see a little Titanicus support with the release of the Dark Mechanicum Stalkers, but it’s a far cry from an expansion. 
 

GW has a chance to right the ship and actually provide support, drum up interest and expand upon the game if they want to. I really hope they do, because this game does have potential. 

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

The trick with GW pulling the plug is to buy all you need in advance. Therefore you won´t miss out when the game gets squatted. Apart from a few titans and support boxes I have now everything I need.

[Marshal Mittens]

On 12/2/2024 at 8:09 PM, DuskRaider said:

I won’t lie, I’m a bit perturbed to hear that stores are placing LI product on clearance. Hopefully it doesn’t mean much, but at least you’re able to get into the game. 

My local FLGS had everything but the Admech stuff at 75% off on black friday. They were also selling Skaventide for 75% off and the Solar Aux starter for 28mm 30k for 50% off. 

 

I know a few people who play, but not many. I think the cost is really too high for what you get. To make a 600pt Armored company of 3x6 Predators and 2x3 Kratos it's like $260 before taxes, and you need like 5 companies of that points level to play. It's one of GWs most expensive game lines to build an army for. 

Edited December 7, 2024 by Marshal Mittens

[DuskRaider]

Stalker and Serperos kits have been preordered. I went with 3 x Stalker and 2 x Serperos to start. Hopefully by the time they get here, my Dark Mechanicum will be fully painted and ready. 

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

The main purpose of LI is to bind customers and not make them go to play 3rd party games like Dropzone Commander. In that regard LI is a success. 

[Crablezworth]

19 hours ago, Marshal Mittens said:

My local FLGS had everything but the Admech stuff at 75% off on black friday. They were also selling Skaventide for 75% off and the Solar Aux starter for 28mm 30k for 50% off. 

 

I know a few people who play, but not many. I think the cost is really too high for what you get. To make a 600pt Armored company of 3x6 Predators and 2x3 Kratos it's like $260 before taxes, and you need like 5 companies of that points level to play. It's one of GWs most expensive game lines to build an army for. 

 

Yeah after slogging through the mech box, I love the end result but can totally see why players might not only not see value but have it seem a bit daunting. Some of the decisions made for quality meant a lot more parts than would be ideal, and, this also buts right up against an environment where one can often print far fewer component small scale models that look just as good but are less of a headache to build. The value proposition too of all the boxes being roughly the same price has some boxes feeling like a pretty good value but like your example with armored company, 4 sicarans is sorta feel bad for the price, especially with some boxes of tanks coming with as many as 8 like the basilisk/medusa boxes. The fast attack box for marines sorta feels at least more substantial in terms of numbers of minis, but the whole thing is a tough sell to prospective players, and it's not helped by the fact that its sold as like a game that really needs 3k when in reality the army boxes are actually decent starting points and make okay armies in one go. It also doesn't help that a lot stores just don't have terrain for small scale.  

On 12/6/2024 at 7:18 AM, DuskRaider said:

Yeah, I’m a bit concerned that the game is going to fade quietly into the void. We saw it happen to Aeronautica and Titanicus, though they were allegedly killed so Legions Imperialis could carry both lines along with its own. 
 

To be fair, we’ll see a little Titanicus support with the release of the Dark Mechanicum Stalkers, but it’s a far cry from an expansion. 
 

GW has a chance to right the ship and actually provide support, drum up interest and expand upon the game if they want to. I really hope they do, because this game does have potential. 

 

It feels really weird that they never even tried to sell order tokens, especially with them being so necessary to the game, much more so than the unit cards. 

[Crablezworth]

3 hours ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

The main purpose of LI is to bind customers and not make them go to play 3rd party games like Dropzone Commander. In that regard LI is a success. 

 

Dropzone is interesting, its the only other small scale game I played before AT/LI. The models are great, amazing photography, but i still found it had some of the same issues as li, like tracking all the sub lists and which dropship belonged to what was a bit too daunting imo, it felt like a game that needed heads up display at times. I find the idea of tracking break points in li a similar thing, just sorta take up more bandwidth mentally and time wise than its worth. I think the one to keep an eye on is full spectrum dominance, I really like that all you need is like a 2x3 and its getting a rulebook and i think cards from modiphius. 

[DuskRaider]

I’m actually a bit shocked that I was able to obtain the Construct preorders so easily this time around. I remember when GW released the Spartan wave that everything was gone before I even had a chance to get to the website. I’m wondering if this is an indication that they’re stocking up for releases more or a significant drop in player interest in the game. I’m hoping it’s a correction of stock availability. 
 

Edit: actually, there’s something else I’ve been thinking about as well, and that’s the lack of coverage for the game as well. By that I mean on outlets like YouTube. If you type “Legions Imperialis” into the search bar, there isn’t much that pops up from recent times. Of course there’s the basic review of the newest expansion, but any battle reports or whatnot are completely absent. I know Tabletop Standard has posted over on Patreon, but you’d think with a new game that there would be more content relevant to it. 

Edited December 8, 2024 by DuskRaider

[Crablezworth]

7 hours ago, DuskRaider said:

I’m actually a bit shocked that I was able to obtain the Construct preorders so easily this time around. I remember when GW released the Spartan wave that everything was gone before I even had a chance to get to the website. I’m wondering if this is an indication that they’re stocking up for releases more or a significant drop in player interest in the game. I’m hoping it’s a correction of stock availability. 
 

Edit: actually, there’s something else I’ve been thinking about as well, and that’s the lack of coverage for the game as well. By that I mean on outlets like YouTube. If you type “Legions Imperialis” into the search bar, there isn’t much that pops up from recent times. Of course there’s the basic review of the newest expansion, but any battle reports or whatnot are completely absent. I know Tabletop Standard has posted over on Patreon, but you’d think with a new game that there would be more content relevant to it. 

 

It's pretty taxing to document an alternating activation game imo. That and contextualizing the progressive scoring is really sorta not interesting. Tabletop standard's most recent battle report was great though with end game scoring. 

[Pacific81]

I have heard a few people talk about how that game worked so well, need to watch as we are looking for a format for our narrative event next year.

 

Just been picking at some Eldar Guardians to finish off a company, all Vanguard Miniatures. The Grav Tanks are going to be mounted on paper clips as per the one on the left to give the appearance of floating.

[Sherrypie]

  

A small 2k game of EpicAU, Night Lords vs Mechanicum. The astartes attempted a speedy overrun of the harbour, but bounced hard from the wall of robots and got blasted with rocket artillery until they slunk back into the burning waves.

 

 

More in the spoilers!

 

Spoiler

 

[Pacific81]

Beautiful shots as always Sherrypie! It looks like an incredible game.

 

Not surprised the Lords ended up sneaking away (this is how they always go!) I don't think I have seen that army before, is it yours and do you have any more shots?

[Sherrypie]

43 minutes ago, Pacific81 said:

Beautiful shots as always Sherrypie! It looks like an incredible game.

 

Not surprised the Lords ended up sneaking away (this is how they always go!) I don't think I have seen that army before, is it yours and do you have any more shots?

 

Thanks! The Lords are my friend's recently painted force, not mine. This was their first outing and they got absolutely wrecked for it. My first action threw a Golgotha missile on top of their HQ's head and decapitated the marines' supreme command rerolls right out of the gate :D

[Lord Marshal]

On 12/7/2024 at 10:27 PM, DuskRaider said:

I’m actually a bit shocked that I was able to obtain the Construct preorders so easily this time around. I remember when GW released the Spartan wave that everything was gone before I even had a chance to get to the website. I’m wondering if this is an indication that they’re stocking up for releases more or a significant drop in player interest in the game. I’m hoping it’s a correction of stock availability. 
 

Edit: actually, there’s something else I’ve been thinking about as well, and that’s the lack of coverage for the game as well. By that I mean on outlets like YouTube. If you type “Legions Imperialis” into the search bar, there isn’t much that pops up from recent times. Of course there’s the basic review of the newest expansion, but any battle reports or whatnot are completely absent. I know Tabletop Standard has posted over on Patreon, but you’d think with a new game that there would be more content relevant to it. 

 

I think it's just down to them not being Marines.

 

I've never had any issues with getting hold of Solar Auxilia boxes outside of the Starter Set (which all the Marine players were also buying). The only exception has been a brief blip on Day 1 where Baneblades sold out somewhat quickly (but were promptly restocked), but I attribute that more to scalpers wanting to grab anything that wasn't out-of-stock than indicative of anything longterm. All in all Marine stuff still appears to be selling very well - I saw none of the Tallarn Marine kits in Black Friday sales unlike SA - but the other factions are simply nowhere near them in numbers.

 

With regards to Battle Reports, honestly I don't think that's unique to LI. Anything that isn't 40k tends to be a wasteland when it comes to them. Even Age of Sigmar it's rare you'll see a BatRep push above 10,000 views unless it's one of the massive channels (PlayOnTabletop, Tabletop Tactics, etc). 28mm Horus Heresy is in a similar position despite being more popular than ever. What I've noticed is that most of the medium-large channels will only cover a game during the initial hype of a new edition launch, then go back exclusively to 40k until the next thing rolls around. It's just those channels also tend to have the most professional setups and the algorithm isn't friendly to anything else. 

 

Guerrilla Miniature Games has done a few recent LI BatReps, as have All Miniatures Great and Small (who historically have been more of a- uhh, historical <15mm channel) and Bear Foot Miniatures. PlayOnTabletop also just did another Titandeath video.

 

Edited December 24, 2024 by Lord Marshal

[DuskRaider]

Yeah, true. I just think I’ve been relatively spoiled by the amount of Titanicus Battle Reps comparatively compared to LI. 
 

I just figured Mechanicum would be more popular than they seem to be, particularly with never seen before Dark Mech units and whatnot. It’s just weird, it seemed like AT was much more popular at this point in its release than LI is and that’s a bit disheartening considering this should have a larger audience. 

[Lord Marshal]

I don't think LI's been helped by what can only be described as the most committed brigading I've ever seen for a GW game. There's a very, very, loud group of people who are seemingly desperate for it to fail for various reasons: wishing it had been 40k, feeling it's encroaching on NetEpic, hoping it will validate a "GW will be killed by 3D printers any day now!" narrative, some 28mm diehards who feel like it's taking 'their' release slots.

 

The whole atmosphere around the game is thick with negativity that's probably putting off a lot of potential buyers, and I'm not referring to people who have (justified) issues with the rules and lack of FAQs, but from those who never had any interest in it to begin with and being rare to see it discussed in the wild (outside of LI-specific spaces) without people jumping in and being snarky about it being dead, or saying it shouldn't have existed in the first place. In a way I'm reminded of the first few years of Age of Sigmar's existence, only that game at least had a lot of understandable anger from Fantasy players at having their decades-old game replaced. 

 

With that being said, I vaguely remember the first year of Titanicus being extremely rough as well and going through something similar. Obviously it's anecdotal, but I recall things been even more doom-and-gloom until the Starter Set (not the Grand Master one) released, which is when it felt like the mood turned more positive. That at least gives me some cause to hope, and I feel like LI is more popular than Titanicus was at this point in it's lifecycle. It has it's praises sung highly these days, but the first year or so was extremely rocky - even before Covid. 

 

Edited December 25, 2024 by Lord Marshal

[Pacific81]

Can I ask where you are getting that impression from @Lord Marshal? I think there is an element of 'forums being forums', and them sometimes being balanced towards the negative because people don't bother to post the 'I think it looks alright' opinion. Also, for some places (Dakka is normally pretty funny in this regard) you could have the reincarnated soul of HG Wells return to combine with Rick Priestley, arriving on a flying carpet to make the ultimate supergame, and the responses would still be "meh - average at best".

YouTube also - bear in mind the shocked face cover photo + "why 40k sucks" is what drives the clicks for a lot of people that are doing that stuff as their main income. Then you watch the video and find they're not really saying that at all.

 

I spend a lot of time in Epic FB groups and I think there has been massive positivity towards the miniature range that has been released (rightfully so, we're basically now playing with physical versions of the Kev Adams artwork from 1st edition of lots of little beakies shooting each other) with I would say an apathy, rather than general dislike, of the game itself. There is some aversion to the prices, but hey people are spending £100+ on re-releases of 25 year-old WHFB minis, so by comparison Legions is much more reasonable.

 

I think the game probably sits in the awkward place of not being as much fun as either Blood Bowl or Necromunda (with those games also more accessible) but with too much granularity of rules: it is not a pick up and play game, it requires a lot of time and effort to learn and understand, and it is then competing again 28mm Heresy and Titanicus in that space, while those games already have strong existing communities.

Longstanding Epic groups I know of have looked at it and then returned to Armageddon or NetEpic. My local group is playing ocassionally but has started to wander to other stuff, and even the event we are trying to run next year (a charity event at one of the UK's largest gaming venues) is struggling to sell tickets.

My thoughts on this are that it is due to the accessibility issues mentioned - I think it will find it's niche, and especially the miniatures will keep people perhaps just collecting and using for other versions of the game, perhaps rather than playing Legions itself. But I think that's Ok - and it was never, ever going to become a GW 'main game' again with single unit profiles that cover an entire page, and almost no marketing by GW itself.

[Indy Techwisp]

Can someone explain why Legions Imperialis seems to be the game with the most pessimistic playerbase out of all GW products? I genuinely do not think I have seen actual happiness from any posts in here...

You got AdMech and Dark Mech, both now properly out and on sale iirc.

I feel there should be some level of "What's up next?" Speculation or Wishlisting going on, but all I'm seeing is "GW hates us." or "Don't buy in, it'll be dead next year."

 

It's not just a this forum issue and I really do worry it's going to turn into a self fulfilling prophecy when GW sees everyone lamenting the game and decides that clearly none of you want it, so why keep producing it?

 

Edit: I know this is a comparison most of you won't really get, but I've seen happier Beasts of Chaos players over in the AoS forums and their entire army got canned and shoved into a different game.

Edited December 27, 2024 by Indy Techwisp
Added a comparison.

[Cleon]

8 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

Can someone explain why Legions Imperialis seems to be the game with the most pessimistic playerbase out of all GW products? I genuinely do not think I have seen actual happiness from any posts in here...

 

Honestly, it's because the amazing quality of the models hasn't been backed up with quality rules. The game is an unfinished, half baked mess, which with the buy in cost of a force is likely to hold the number of players buying in, which may then lead to sales figures telling GW not to bother fixing it (if they even have the skill).

 

I've not played any of the games in the epic family before (but people I play it with have), but I have played other smaller than GW scale games (Dropzone commander, Flames of War, team Yankee) and it is not as well conceptually focussed as any of those games (and the epic players tell me it compares badly to previous editions - to quote 'it's like they took different rules from different editions, without the supporting rules and don't know why or how they should work').

 

From my experience - the army builder system is like you played pick and mix with the worst elements of Flames of War v3 and Team Yankee/Flames of war v4 and then didn't bother actually giving options to make the complexity of the system even remotely worthwhile.

 

Balance is completely non existent, the game doesn't charge for weapon options which are simply mathematically superior against other options. Rend is ridiculously overpowered and makes melee a farce and cool '40k setting' differentiators (like knights) are underpowered to the point they don't work.

 

The the unit profiles read like they are written by different teams who don't talk to each other:

Some units have a micromanaged 'shots per barrel' some are abstracted to be more easily playable

Some units have scaling points for larger units, some are a flat per model

one Baneblade is 100 points, but so is one stormhammer, whut?

 

tl:dr - We (and others) are very disappointed by how badly the game has been treated by drip feed, DLC style book by book release of poor quality rules. Chances are we're going to pivot to using the models with an alternate ruleset because LI 'as written' is not worth a place in our rotation of games for limited play slots.

 

(Edit, off topic, but Ironically I'm happy I get my Beastmen for WFB back)

Edited December 27, 2024 by Cleon

[DuskRaider]

Cleon has really hit the nail on the head. The rules are an absolute mess and GW has shown no interest in attempting to fix them over a year later. Still no Errata, still no FAQ and still a massive amount of issues that need to be addressed. 
 

It’s evident that the Design Team has little grasp of how to make the game work, so the only solution is to half ass their way through each new expansion and keep it moving. I will admit that the Mechanicum are probably their best effort so far, but again it’s an incomplete army that has to rely on Allies in order to field a complete combined-arms force on the table. This isn’t concerning their lack of armored support alone, we know that’s coming eventually. I’m speaking of, as I have been since their release, the complete lack of air support. I’ve beat this damn drum so hard and for so long that my hands are cramping. 
 

I know I’m probably in the minority, but I expected something closer to the granularity and quality of Adeptus Titanicus and it’s evident that this current roster of designers isn’t up to the task and the end goal is to push more product… which is strange, because we circle back to the lack of Mech Air units and the fact that they mention in the fluff that they utilize Servitor-piloted Avengers, they have the damn models and they couldn’t be bothered to even just give us the option, which would in turn sell more models. 
 

The game can and does work, but it takes a lot of effort between players to do so as well as a lot of homebrew corrections, which puts stress on the idea of playing pick up games that aren’t completely unbalanced and just plain bad. Obviously this doesn’t seem to be as big of a problem with folks who wish to play the game competitively, but then all it is is the same units being spammed en masse and completely nullifies the entire purpose of the game and the experience. 
 

I look at GW’s laughable approach at making Knights and Titans not only fit into the game, but make them their own playable faction. It’s so completely lazy and unbalanced that it’s frustrating. The way that both of these “factions” have been nerfed and poorly designed, balanced and executed to put the emphasis on infantry in this game is ridiculous, and we won’t even touch upon infantry themselves and how they interact with everything else on the board. 
 

All of this being said, I’m incredibly invested in this game, not just monetarily but time invested in modeling and painting everything. I want it to succeed and I know it can, but GW has to put the effort into it. I’ve put so much into this because I love their prior games (AT mainly) and because I’ve become so disenchanted by their other current offerings that this has become my last game before I completely check out. I’m pulling for this hard, I really hope GW is as well but I’m starting to doubt it. 

[Sherrypie]

As above.

 

I love Epic and am happy that GW makes neat models for it. I want them to keep doing that and once more put out all sorts of innovative and bizarre stuff that has no place in 28 mm. That's cool. What's not cool is how hilariously mishmashed the rules are, so I can't in good conscience recommend LI over other, better editions of Epic as far as rules go. But the minis work with any system and the older ones are free, so it's still a pretty good time for customers who aren't shackled to only the "current" game.

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

On 12/25/2024 at 3:13 AM, Lord Marshal said:

I don't think LI's been helped by what can only be described as the most committed brigading I've ever seen for a GW game. There's a very, very, loud group of people who are seemingly desperate for it to fail for various reasons: wishing it had been 40k, feeling it's encroaching on NetEpic, hoping it will validate a "GW will be killed by 3D printers any day now!" narrative, some 28mm diehards who feel like it's taking 'their' release slots.

 

The whole atmosphere around the game is thick with negativity that's probably putting off a lot of potential buyers, and I'm not referring to people who have (justified) issues with the rules and lack of FAQs, but from those who never had any interest in it to begin with and being rare to see it discussed in the wild (outside of LI-specific spaces) without people jumping in and being snarky about it being dead, or saying it shouldn't have existed in the first place. In a way I'm reminded of the first few years of Age of Sigmar's existence, only that game at least had a lot of understandable anger from Fantasy players at having their decades-old game replaced. 

 

With that being said, I vaguely remember the first year of Titanicus being extremely rough as well and going through something similar. Obviously it's anecdotal, but I recall things been even more doom-and-gloom until the Starter Set (not the Grand Master one) released, which is when it felt like the mood turned more positive. That at least gives me some cause to hope, and I feel like LI is more popular than Titanicus was at this point in it's lifecycle. It has it's praises sung highly these days, but the first year or so was extremely rocky - even before Covid. 

 

A very prominent HH Youtuber has stated on numerous occasions that LI models consist of too many parts and are thus a pain in the butt to assemble. However there has been zero critique from him about the new HH tactical squads and their assembly issues. It seems wargamers really relish the tribe mentality wishing their pet game does well at the cost of the rest which may be out there. 

[DuskRaider]

22 hours ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

A very prominent HH Youtuber has stated on numerous occasions that LI models consist of too many parts and are thus a pain in the butt to assemble. However there has been zero critique from him about the new HH tactical squads and their assembly issues. It seems wargamers really relish the tribe mentality wishing their pet game does well at the cost of the rest which may be out there. 

The models, perhaps with the exception of a small number, aren’t even that difficult to assemble. I like to imagine a lot of the folks complaining about these started the hobby fairly recently in 8th with all of the monopose, easy (or at least easier) to assemble boxes because if they played back when your only option for Heresy and many other specialty armies was resin, their heads would explode. 
 

I recently had this argument / discussion over on FB and I had said the resin FW kits are / were superior to their newer plastic counterparts based on detail alone and people lost their minds. 

[Lord_Valorion]

Which Youtuber is saying this? Tell the Name so I can unsubscribe.

 

In germany, LI was dead on arrival. I think this has a lot to do with there is not a german rulebook.

 

I am desperately trying to establish a community in my area, but it is exhausting. My Club has nearly 40 people and no one besides me want even try it. If I want to play, I have to drive over 1,5 hours even as I am living near different bigger cities. I have so much stuff but have only one game played yet. I am organizing an Event im february and it is the only Event in whole germany.

Edited December 29, 2024 by Lord_Valorion

[Lord Marshal]

16 hours ago, DuskRaider said:

The models, perhaps with the exception of a small number, aren’t even that difficult to assemble. I like to imagine a lot of the folks complaining about these started the hobby fairly recently in 8th with all of the monopose, easy (or at least easier) to assemble boxes because if they played back when your only option for Heresy and many other specialty armies was resin, their heads would explode. 
 

I recently had this argument / discussion over on FB and I had said the resin FW kits are / were superior to their newer plastic counterparts based on detail alone and people lost their minds. 

 

Finecast really broke a lot of people when it came to resin and permanently planted the idea in their heads all resin is as awful as Finecrap was (because 99% of people will only ever touch mainline GW products). It also predicated the myth of "plastic is superior to resin for detail" because, yeah, modern plastics will net you a better result than Finecrap models but one only needs to look at the resin and plastic Solar Auxilia or Death Korps to spot the big difference (especially the resin Lord Marshal vs plastic Legate Marshal).

 

I don't begrudge people for being annoyed at poor quality control or cost (at least with older FW stuff) but when it comes to detail (or lack thereof) the myths are pretty wild. 

 

On 12/25/2024 at 11:23 AM, Pacific81 said:

Can I ask where you are getting that impression from @Lord Marshal?

 

Mostly anecdotal experience 'around the internet' from a mixture of places: forums, Discords, youtube comments, etc. I do think it has dried up a fair amount in recent months, probably because with the Mechanicum release it's indicative that the game likely isn't going anywhere in the immediate future (rather than immediately dropping off a cliff like a lot of people hoped it would). 

 

Edited December 29, 2024 by Lord Marshal