Suspected/confirmed Primaris traitor genestock?

[Brother Clavero]

Been out of the 40k loop for a bit but just wanted to know if any of the new primaris chapters have been suspected or confirmed to be created using traitor geneseed ? 

[Gamiel]

Suspected: Yes. By tha fandom but nothing in story.

 

Confirmed: No.

[Blindhamster]

exactly, there's really on the nose ones like the purple and white chapter "sons of the phoenix" for example. But in lore they're imperial fists lol.

[Gamiel]

10 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

exactly, there's really on the nose ones like the purple and white chapter "sons of the phoenix" for example. But in lore they're imperial fists lol.

But by that logic should the Sons of Jaghatai, Hawk Lords & Knights of Byzantium also be EC successors, the Dark Hunters, Crimson Fist & Death Strike be Um succesors,  and Red Templars, Red Talons & Rampagers be BA successors.

[Blindhamster]

very fair point!

[Sky Potato]

"Sons of the Phoenix" are probably considered to be EC successors due to being "Sons of the Phoenix".

 

As in Greek mythology, Phoenix gives his name to the country called Phoenicia. Primarch of the Emperors Children is also known as "The Phoenician".

 

So there is more going on with Sons of the Phoenix than just the colour scheme - but the colours in conjunction with the name are why people suspect they are EC successors.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Gamiel said:

But by that logic should the Sons of Jaghatai, Hawk Lords & Knights of Byzantium also be EC successors, the Dark Hunters, Crimson Fist & Death Strike be Um succesors,  and Red Templars, Red Talons & Rampagers be BA successors.

I mean eh.

colors for some genelines are a big indicator, but historically only BA really leaned into 1 single color pallet for its successors, which is why there was so much confusion about the blood ravens when first released.

 

but when a name is super suggestive and color scheme is super suggestive, you know what they say…if walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.

[LSM]

1 hour ago, Sky Potato said:

...As in Greek mythology, Phoenix gives his name to the country called Phoenicia. Primarch of the Emperors Children is also known as "The Phoenician"....

 

IIRC "phoinix" is ancient Greek for ~purple.

 

The Greeks called Phoenicia/Phoenicians that because they credited them with purple dies.

 

(Phoenix is then somewhat of a coincidence - apparently the ancient Greeks didn't separate purple from crimson, and so named the mythical bird after the flames, even though we today would never in English describe a fire as being purple. I'm not entirely sure on the timeline as far as 40k goes, but I think Fulgrim's moniker of The Phoenician was originally a reference to the colour purple, which later developers mistook/expanded on as being related to Phoenixes, resulting in Phoenix Guard, etc. But "The Phoenician" basically means "The Purple One".)

 

//

 

As to the OP, the old Brotherhood of a Thousand seem potentially Thousand Sons-y (and in some people's books, the Blood Ravens), I think the Marines Malevolent and Minotaurs are semi-confirmed as Iron Warriors, and the Covenant of Fire (while officially Salamanders) sure do look like Word Bearers.

 

(The Scythes of the Emperor have a connection to Barabas Dantioch, a loyalist Iron Warrior Warsmith during the 'Heresy, but I don't think they actually have Iron Warrior geneseed.)

 

[Orion]

1 hour ago, LSM said:

I'm not entirely sure on the timeline as far as 40k goes, but I think Fulgrim's moniker of The Phoenician was originally a reference to the colour purple, which later developers mistook/expanded on as being related to Phoenixes, resulting in Phoenix Guard, etc. But "The Phoenician" basically means "The Purple One".)

This legit sounds like how actual history plays out. 

And yeah, Sons of the Phoenix and Covenant of Fire (Word Bearer Primaris) I figure are traitor geneseed. Same as Silver Skulls etc.

Any Loyalist stock can go the other way as well. I think they're usually Red Corsairs or whatever.

[Paladin777]

The Blood Ravens are also rumored to be loyalist a Thousand Sons chapter. 
 

edit: misunderstood the topic. That's what I get for posting while exhausted. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Paladin777

[Urauloth]

5 hours ago, LSM said:

(The Scythes of the Emperor have a connection to Barabas Dantioch, a loyalist Iron Warrior Warsmith during the 'Heresy, but I don't think they actually have Iron Warrior geneseed.)

 

Yeah, they're entirely Ultramarines descendants.

 

The Covenant of Fire almost seem too obvious. I wonder if they are actually just Salamanders successors, and Cawl has given them heraldry blatantly reminiscent of the Word Bearers as a distraction. Guilliman is presumably keeping half an eye out for him using traitor legion geneseed because he keeps bringing up how he could totally do it safely, and Guilliman already suspects that he's exceeding his remit and playing fast and loose with the truth (cf his doubts about the nature of the Cawl Inferior). Maybe he made these guys to draw any suspicion while his actual experiments with traitor geneseed are the most normal Imperial looking guys imaginable.

[Gamiel]

8 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

but when a name is super suggestive and color scheme is super suggestive, you know what they say…if walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.

 

9 hours ago, Sky Potato said:

"Sons of the Phoenix" are probably considered to be EC successors due to being "Sons of the Phoenix".

 

As in Greek mythology, Phoenix gives his name to the country called Phoenicia. Primarch of the Emperors Children is also known as "The Phoenician".

 

So there is more going on with Sons of the Phoenix than just the colour scheme - but the colours in conjunction with the name are why people suspect they are EC successors.

By that logic are the Angels Encarmine and the Angels Vermillion World Eaters successors since Angron's cognomen was the "Red Angel" and they are red like the later World Eaters.

 

Or that the Sons of the Kraken, Sons of Antaeus, Sons of Ares, Sons of Galathor, Sons of Gideon, and other "Sons of ..." chapters are all refering to their primarch's title or cognomen. What primarch is known as the "Kraken" or "Ares"?

 

And as @LSM mention is a big problem with the phoenix theory that Fulgrim is not know as the Phoenix, he is known as the Phoenician, as in purple one.

 

5 hours ago, JayJapanB said:

And yeah, Sons of the Phoenix and Covenant of Fire (Word Bearer Primaris) I figure are traitor geneseed. Same as Silver Skulls etc.

Have you seen this collections of copies of tweets by Sarah Cawkwell (you know the author that more or less have written everything about the SIlver Skulls) where she outright state that the Silver Skull are not of IW descendants. And while I know that those things can be faked is there is also this post from last year (´22) :

And if you open the replies she write that she originally planed to have them as White Scars successors, before being told by the powers-that-be that the Silver Skulls were of Ultra gene-stock. 

[Sky Potato]

2 hours ago, Gamiel said:

 

By that logic are the Angels Encarmine and the Angels Vermillion World Eaters successors since Angron's cognomen was the "Red Angel" and they are red like the later World Eaters.

 

Or that the Sons of the Kraken, Sons of Antaeus, Sons of Ares, Sons of Galathor, Sons of Gideon, and other "Sons of ..." chapters are all refering to their primarch's title or cognomen. What primarch is known as the "Kraken" or "Ares"?

 

And as @LSM mention is a big problem with the phoenix theory that Fulgrim is not know as the Phoenix, he is known as the Phoenician, as in purple one.

 

And this is the good thing about the 40k universe - its so big that there is always some ambiguity. It keeps things interesting.

 

I'd imagine the Angels Encarmine specifically were called that due to Sanguinius' use of the Blade Encarmine by Sanguinius during the Heresy. You know, the other Angel.

 

10 hours ago, LSM said:

 

IIRC "phoinix" is ancient Greek for ~purple.

 

The Greeks called Phoenicia/Phoenicians that because they credited them with purple dies.

 

(Phoenix is then somewhat of a coincidence - apparently the ancient Greeks didn't separate purple from crimson, and so named the mythical bird after the flames, even though we today would never in English describe a fire as being purple. I'm not entirely sure on the timeline as far as 40k goes, but I think Fulgrim's moniker of The Phoenician was originally a reference to the colour purple, which later developers mistook/expanded on as being related to Phoenixes, resulting in Phoenix Guard, etc. But "The Phoenician" basically means "The Purple One".)

 

Emphasis mine. There's an in universe precedent, if developers have followed the thread through from "Phoenician" to "Phoenix Guard", it's easy to see how you can go from "Phoenician" to "Sons of the Phoenix".

[Karhedron]

The thing about GW hinting at Primaris made from traitor geneseed is simply planting a hook that they can later hang stories on if they wish. If they do nothing with the concept then it is simply a bit of fun speculation. If they do choose to progress it, then it makes them look like they had it planned out all along. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 hours ago, Gamiel said:

 

By that logic are the Angels Encarmine and the Angels Vermillion World Eaters successors since Angron's cognomen was the "Red Angel" and they are red like the later World Eaters.

 

Or that the Sons of the Kraken, Sons of Antaeus, Sons of Ares, Sons of Galathor, Sons of Gideon, and other "Sons of ..." chapters are all refering to their primarch's title or cognomen. What primarch is known as the "Kraken" or "Ares"?

 

And as @LSM mention is a big problem with the phoenix theory that Fulgrim is not know as the Phoenix, he is known as the Phoenician, as in purple one.

 

Have you seen this collections of copies of tweets by Sarah Cawkwell (you know the author that more or less have written everything about the SIlver Skulls) where she outright state that the Silver Skull are not of IW descendants. And while I know that those things can be faked is there is also this post from last year (´22) :

And if you open the replies she write that she originally planed to have them as White Scars successors, before being told by the powers-that-be that the Silver Skulls were of Ultra gene-stock. 

Old world eaters were white/blue.

 

Both chapters come from a literal angel who’s legion wore red.

 

no one said all chapter names have to some how refer to a primarch or their legion.

 

this was the most disingenuous post ever…

 

not sure what silver skulls have to do with anything…other than being a shade of silver there was nothing to indicate they were related to IW.

2 hours ago, Sky Potato said:

 

And this is the good thing about the 40k universe - its so big that there is always some ambiguity. It keeps things interesting.

 

I'd imagine the Angels Encarmine specifically were called that due to Sanguinius' use of the Blade Encarmine by Sanguinius during the Heresy. You know, the other Angel.

 

 

Emphasis mine. There's an in universe precedent, if developers have followed the thread through from "Phoenician" to "Phoenix Guard", it's easy to see how you can go from "Phoenician" to "Sons of the Phoenix".

‘The other angel’

you mean the real angel?

Edited September 18, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

As for the phoenix-EC connection, EC had/have the phoenix guard, and phoenix terminators. Not sure if the termies are just phoenix guard in terminator armor or what. Anyway pehonix guard are/were fulgrim’s body guard but there’s definitely an official/canon connection between the EC and the term phoenix, creating a reasonable suspicion that the sons of the phoenix may be from fulgrim’s genestock when combined with the colors used.

[Sky Potato]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

‘The other angel’

you mean the real angel?

Obviously

[Tacitus]

On 9/17/2023 at 1:03 PM, Gamiel said:

Suspected: Yes. By tha fandom but nothing in story.

 

Confirmed: No.

Suspected in the Black Library books too - They dropped a hint that Cawl was already messing with non-Loyalist gene-seed that was less subtle than a punch to the face. 

[Tacitus]

On 9/18/2023 at 3:00 AM, Karhedron said:

The thing about GW hinting at Primaris made from traitor geneseed is simply planting a hook that they can later hang stories on if they wish. If they do nothing with the concept then it is simply a bit of fun speculation. If they do choose to progress it, then it makes them look like they had it planned out all along. 

Never mind the stories, that's the hook they are/were going to hang Primaris Chaos Marines on - Maybe some psychic non-dust Thousand Sons reach out to Magnus from their place on Mars, leading Perturabo to come out of retirement.  Boom.  Summer Campaign and Chaos Primaris Marines on the way. 

[Remain_Indoors]

On 9/19/2023 at 3:12 PM, Tacitus said:

Never mind the stories, that's the hook they are/were going to hang Primaris Chaos Marines on - Maybe some psychic non-dust Thousand Sons reach out to Magnus from their place on Mars, leading Perturabo to come out of retirement.  Boom.  Summer Campaign and Chaos Primaris Marines on the way. 

 

It's not how theyve introduced Primaris Chaos Space Marines into the setting though.  Arks of Omen Angron has brought them into the setting, with no mucking about by Cawl needed.

Ambiguity over the true origins of Space Marine chapters should be kept ambiguous in my opinion. It gives the best of both worlds. Those who feel the Sons of the Phoenix are really Emperor's Children descendants are free to delve into that with their hobby, but if you cant stand the idea of Cawl's shenanigans kicking off Heresy 2.0, you can safely stick to the official line that they are descendants from Dorn.

[LSM]

Having geneseed from a traitor legion is no guarantee of betrayal. (No more than having loyalist geneseed prevents random chapters from falling to Chaos.)

[Tacitus]

On 9/21/2023 at 2:01 AM, Remain_Indoors said:

 

It's not how theyve introduced Primaris Chaos Space Marines into the setting though.  Arks of Omen Angron has brought them into the setting, with no mucking about by Cawl needed.

Ambiguity over the true origins of Space Marine chapters should be kept ambiguous in my opinion. It gives the best of both worlds. Those who feel the Sons of the Phoenix are really Emperor's Children descendants are free to delve into that with their hobby, but if you cant stand the idea of Cawl's shenanigans kicking off Heresy 2.0, you can safely stick to the official line that they are descendants from Dorn.

It is one of the two to three ways of introducing Black Legion Primaris, or Thousand Sons Primaris etc.  There are two main avenues to First Founding Legion level Chaos Primaris:  Cawl makes them, and the Legions find them - OR Fabius Bile reverse engineers them and sells them to the Legions. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 9/21/2023 at 9:44 AM, LSM said:

Having geneseed from a traitor legion is no guarantee of betrayal. (No more than having loyalist geneseed prevents random chapters from falling to Chaos.)

It’s no guarantee, but it could be justifiable to say traitor geneseed is more likely to turn traitor because their primarchs did.

could be almost a black rage esque flaw.

[Tacitus]

10 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

It’s no guarantee, but it could be justifiable to say traitor geneseed is more likely to turn traitor because their primarchs did.

could be almost a black rage esque flaw.

Actually I think GW has purposefully straddled the Nature vs Nurture debate on the fall of the Traitor Legions.   But you're looking at it from the other direction.  Traition Legion Primaris Marines in Cawl's lab are Schrödinger's cat.  They may or may not be Traitorous, and you won't know until they get out of the box.  From the other direction, Traitor Legions aren't getting Primaris Marines until/unless Cawl/Bile unlocks them for the faction - there may be some Heretic and Renegade warbands of Primaris Marines, but the original Legions themselves won't have them without the Primaris geneseed for their Legion.

[Forté]

No one knows what gene seed was used on the 13th founding Chapters, or how many were even created then. Could've been traitor geneseed and there used to be some shown with genetic mutations that didn't match Space Wolf or Blood Angels mutations.