New Codex combos

[L30n1d4s]

For the Vanguard Spearhead, there are several good options, I think some of the best are medium to long range shooty units with a 2+ save and good baseline durability.

 

Out the gate, I can think of the following:

 

1 - Devastator Centurions (Grav Cannons and MLs)

2 - Redemptor Dreads (Plasma)

3 - Ballistus Dreads

4 - Deathwatch Terminators (3x CML and 2x TH/SS)

 

All if these have very respectable firepower at range (gets even better with the +1BS/-1AP strat), meaning your opponent can't just ignore them. Add in free Cover/-1 to Hit at over 12" away, their built in 2+ saves, and Armour of Contempt strat and they become exceptionally difficult to deal with, putting your opponent in a dilemma... pour tons of firepower into them and hope to get lucky, or ignore them and get pummeled all game long by their shooting. Getting into melee with them is a potential option, but everything besides the Ballistus is decent (Centurions) or quite strong in close combat (Redeptor/DW Terminators), plus if you have any counter assault units, you can really punish them for getting close.

 

Add in some Incursors for charge blocking/+1 to hit shenanigans and some Scouts/Lieutenants with Combi-Weapon for cheap Objective holders and you give your opponent a very difficult army to deal with.

Edited October 13, 2023 by L30n1d4s

[Lemondish]

9 hours ago, mertbl said:

With hover it benefits from obscuring as it loses aircraft. 

 

A key thing folks miss since they avoid Aircraft at all costs.

 

Basically, it doesn't have to be anything but a flying Land Raider, and with hover, that's exactly what it is.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Going back to the combo I mentioned previously.

with firestorm you can use the burning vengeance strat to disembark before T2 when your opponent inevitably shoots at the SR.

if said unit happens to be within 12” all the better.

[Lemondish]

Vanguard Veterans have a fun application in a Firestorm detachment. Enter: full 10 man brick with a Jump Pack Captain unit, where all 11 models can have a hand flamer.

 

Normally the hand flamer's S3 will hold it back, but thanks to the detachment rule it does up to S4. It can also be fired after advancing also thanks to the detachment rule, and crucially the Captain can make a battle tactic free. I'm thinking specifically Immolation Protocols.

 

I've yet to test it, but my hunch is that if you want to play to Immolation Protocols as a strategy you can't get much better than this. Drop them in where they can all fire at someone Vulkan Hestan can see, and use Immolation Protocols for free to throw 11d6 flamer shots at the target, rerolling wounds thanks to Vulkan, where every crit becomes a devastating wound. You will severely harm and/or kill some surprisingly tough things with this, even before charging.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Lemondish

[CCE1981]

I think you forgot the other Strat that spikes their killing potential, Crucible of Battle.  +1 to wound at the closest target within 6” or in the Fight phase.

[Minsc]

26 minutes ago, CCE1981 said:

I think you forgot the other Strat that spikes their killing potential, Crucible of Battle.  +1 to wound at the closest target within 6” or in the Fight phase.

As a wise man once said: "Why not both?" 

 

@Lemondish That combo is pretty nasty. 11D6 means 38,5 hits on average, which averages  6,42 Dev. Wounds or 11,77 if you fish for sixes and have re-rolls from Vulkan. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Minsc

[Orion]

4 minutes ago, Minsc said:

As a wise man once said: "Why not both?" 

 

Wasn't that a little Mexican girl?

[Paladin777]

I thought she was Asian...

[Karhedron]

11 hours ago, Lemondish said:

Vanguard Veterans have a fun application in a Firestorm detachment. Enter: full 10 man brick with a Jump Pack Captain unit, where all 11 models can have a hand flamer. Normally the hand flamer's S3 will hold it back, but thanks to the detachment rule it does up to S4. It can also be fired after advancing also thanks to the detachment rule, and crucially the Captain can make a battle tactic free. I'm thinking specifically Immolation Protocols. I've yet to test it, but my hunch is that if you want to play to Immolation Protocols as a strategy you can't get much better than this.

 

There are a couple of good candidates for Immolation Protocols including Infernus squads and Flamestorm Aggressors. Personally I think I would opt for Flamestorm Aggressors as their twin-linked gauntlets mean you get a chance to double-dip on those Devastating Wounds.

[CCE1981]

I am taking a counts as Vulkan He’stan to create multiple threats with my redeemer, and 2x 5-man squads of Infernus Marines.  I know it isn’t ideal not to have a max squad, but I am looking to maximize where the threats can come from.   Add him to Company Heroes and a Lt with Forged In Battle, yeah auto Sustained hits 2 on a 3 damage weapon, plus the three auto hits one being an auto wound on overwatch.

Edited October 17, 2023 by CCE1981

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

 

There are a couple of good candidates for Immolation Protocols including Infernus squads and Flamestorm Aggressors. Personally I think I would opt for Flamestorm Aggressors as their twin-linked gauntlets mean you get a chance to double-dip on those Devastating Wounds.

The problem with that is you're starting off your combo with a red headed step child in Flamestorm Aggressors.  GW really dropped the ball on those guys.  Would you rather have D6+3 shots out to 18" or D6+1 shots out to 12"?  And then you're tacking on a substandard gimmick.  Devastating Wounds without a Critical Wound escalator is way over-rated.  Gladius does the gimmick better with Boltstormers stacking AP improvements because the Biologis gives them Lethal Sustained Hits on a 5+ piling on the (sweet spot) -2AP D1 wounds. 

 

Of course they also dropped the ball on the Infernus squad.  Partly because flamers are bad in general, partly because they're statted out like an elite, instead of a Battle Line which meshes better with their use as a "Troops" in the value sets, and offsets some of the sting on bad flamers.  It also wouldn't hurt if they took every torrent weapon out there, doubled the number of attacks, and then looked to see if any of them shouldn't have been.  I'm sure there's at least one out there that doesn't need the doubling, but I can't think of it off the top of my head.  But if you're going to do it, I think the Infernus Squad is the one to gimmick the strat on - Aggressors top out at 6 models doing 6D6+6 ~27, Infernus will be looking at 10D6 ~35.

 

The strat for Aggressors (and Terminators) in the Firestorm formation is Crucible of Battle.   Your S8 Power Fists will still be wounding T12 Land Raiders on 4's.  Surprise!  You can get a little more oomph out of it by doing this with the Melta Boys as they'll get Assault and +1S to their melta rifles, AND +1 to Wound within 6" (AKA Melta Trigger Prime Range) but you're less likely to have the surprise factor.   6 aggressors (before OOM) are 18 fist attacks, 12 hit, 6 wound dealing 12 damage before likely 5+ armor saves.  10 Terminators(9 with fists), 27 attacks, hit on 2+ for the OOM target is 22-23 hits 11-12 woundings, 22-24 damage before the saves.   Chainfists with Anti-Vehicle 3+ muck all that up and wouldn't be a fit for this Anti-Vehicle requires unmodified 3+ so +1 to wound does you (next to) no good. 

 

If you go with Terminator Assault Squads - the Lightning Claws probably get you nowhere (no +1S bonus from the Formation rule as a melee weapon) and S5 vs T10 with +1 to wound isn't a winning strategy. The Thunderhammers on the other hand have Devastating Wounds with a 4+, +1 to hit vs the OOM target, AND the Sergeant has one to boot.  30 attacks, 20 hit, reroll 10 6-7 more hit, 27 hits 13-14 woundings (on a 5+, +1 for 4+) 2ish are Devastating, end result 4 mortals, 22-24 more damage saving on a likely 5+ = 18 damage, and 4 mortals, 22 damage = Dead Repulsor, and probably Dead Land Raider with its 2+ worsened to a 4+ for 16ish damage vs 16W. 

 

I don't think people expect to lose their T12 Main Battle Tank to a bunch of melee anymore, so there's a pretty good surprised factor there that probably only improves if it's a Knight

[CCE1981]

@Tacitus I am getting similar mathhammer damage from melee with a 6-man Bladeguard squad led by Adrax, for the re-roll wounds, and a Bladguard Ancient.  The Ancient is there for +1 attack for one turn and given Forged In Battle for ignore modifiers.

 

I think I will need to look at a Terminator Squad.

[Tacitus]

47 minutes ago, CCE1981 said:

@Tacitus I am getting similar mathhammer damage from melee with a 6-man Bladeguard squad led by Adrax, for the re-roll wounds, and a Bladguard Ancient.  The Ancient is there for +1 attack for one turn and given Forged In Battle for ignore modifiers.

 

I think I will need to look at a Terminator Squad.

I don't know about that - how much do 10 Termies cost compare to 6 Bladeguard?  Of course 10 Termies lasts longer too with more 4++ wounds so its a flavor choice based on the rest of your army.    I'm actually thinking about Calgar and a Lieutenant in with 6 bladeguard.  At that point  I've got 9 (6 Bladeguard, Calgar, and 2 Honor Guard) guys with a 4++, and a crap ton of MC Power Swords plus Calgar's "hidden" twin linked master crafted power fists in the Firestorm (That many MC Power Swords that wound Terminators on 3's) or with Aggressors in Firestorm or Vanguard Strike Force for the Infiltrate - but that's less "interesting" because I'm also thinking of Ventris in some Company heroes as a flanker/harasser while also Deep Striking Calgar and his attached squad.   Calgar is feeling pretty juicy this time around. 

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, Tacitus said:

The problem with that is you're starting off your combo with a red headed step child in Flamestorm Aggressors.  GW really dropped the ball on those guys.  Would you rather have D6+3 shots out to 18" or D6+1 shots out to 12"?

 

Not quite. It is D6+3 shots out to 18" or D6+1 HITS out to 12". The boltstorm guys average 4.3 hits out to 18" while flamstorm average 4.5 out to 12". So the number of hits are pretty close. Boltstorm get the edge on range but Flamestorm auto-hit which is good when negative modifiers are in place and great for Overwatch.

[CCE1981]

44 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

I don't know about that - how much do 10 Termies cost compare to 6 Bladeguard?  Of course 10 Termies lasts longer too with more 4++ wounds so its a flavor choice based on the rest of your army.    I'm actually thinking about Calgar and a Lieutenant in with 6 bladeguard.  At that point  I've got 9 (6 Bladeguard, Calgar, and 2 Honor Guard) guys with a 4++, and a crap ton of MC Power Swords plus Calgar's "hidden" twin linked master crafted power fists in the Firestorm (That many MC Power Swords that wound Terminators on 3's) or with Aggressors in Firestorm or Vanguard Strike Force for the Infiltrate - but that's less "interesting" because I'm also thinking of Ventris in some Company heroes as a flanker/harasser while also Deep Striking Calgar and his attached squad.   Calgar is feeling pretty juicy this time around. 

320 pts for my combo.  The turn I activate the Ancient I get 6x str 10 attacks at 3d from Adrax,  30x str 5 d2 attacks from the Bladeguard, and 6x attacks from the Ancient.  With re-roll to wounds.  Plus I get to re-roll 1s to invulnerable saves and take no negative modifiers to the unit.  So I would say pretty comparable to a 10-man Terminator Assault Squad at 370 points.  Plus I am loading them into a Land Raider Crusader with Company Heroes, Vulkan He’Stan, and Lt.  
 

The Ultramarine Character line up looks good.  Being able to use a stratagem up to four times is Crazy. 

[Minsc]

Probably gonna have my first game with the new rules on sunday (Firestorm :cuss:) and now that Adrax Agatone can finally join a decent melee-unit I plan to field him with 6 Bladeguard in a transport (probably a Redeemer) and then an idea hit me:

 

"Is there finally a place for the Bladeguard Ancient?" (A model I've considered pointless ever since its inception.)

 

An ancient means an enhancement and Forged in Battle feels like a given.

+OC also synergizes well with Agatones "halve enemy OC"'-rule, and +1A for a turn to his squad (including Agatone) isnt that bad.

 

It is however 60 pts for the privilege. Thoughts? 

 

[Sir Clausel]

6 minutes ago, Minsc said:

Probably gonna have my first game with the new rules on sunday (Firestorm :cuss:) and now that Adrax Agatone can finally join a decent melee-unit I plan to field him with 6 Bladeguard in a transport (probably a Redeemer) and then an idea hit me:

 

"Is there finally a place for the Bladeguard Ancient?" (A model I've considered pointless ever since its inception.)

 

An ancient means an enhancement and Forged in Battle feels like a given.

+OC also synergizes well with Agatones "halve enemy OC"'-rule, and +1A for a turn to his squad (including Agatone) isnt that bad.

 

It is however 60 pts for the privilege. Thoughts? 

I would take a lieutenant for 65 points with sword and shield. Thematic for the squad and the extra attacks he has + lethal hits is just good. And he gives you fall back and charge. 

[Karhedron]

20 minutes ago, Sir Clausel said:

I would take a lieutenant for 65 points with sword and shield. Thematic for the squad and the extra attacks he has + lethal hits is just good. And he gives you fall back and charge. 

 

I agree. Other Characters (like the LT) can buff Bladeguard just as effectively as the Ancient and can also fight well in their own right.

[Minsc]

42 minutes ago, Sir Clausel said:

I would take a lieutenant for 65 points with sword and shield. Thematic for the squad and the extra attacks he has + lethal hits is just good. And he gives you fall back and charge. 

 

Yeah you're probably right.

 

The Lt. is 20 pts more expensive, and while you can probably value his increased combat prowess equal to the +1A ability of the Ancient, that essentially means that you pay 20 pts for Lethal Hits and Fallback&Charge, but lose +1 OC on the squad. Worth it? Not necessarily but probably.

 

Ahhh well, poor Bladeguard Ancient, I tried but back to the shelf you go...

 

[DemonGSides]

I know I painted one as part of the call to duty painting challenge and as I was finishing it I was like... Why didn't I just paint anything else?  Hard to make a case. Considering just chopping off his hand and giving him a sword and running him as fanciest LT bladeguard to ever exist. Bit of a proxy but I mostly play friendlies. 

[Karhedron]

I turned mine into a Primaris Sanguinary Priest. It is a shame the loadout of the BG Ancient is weak but it is a lovely model and those robes just cry out to be turned into something more fun. 

 

[CCE1981]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

I turned mine into a Primaris Sanguinary Priest. It is a shame the loadout of the BG Ancient is weak but it is a lovely model and those robes just cry out to be turned into something more fun. 

 

Lol, I actually am using the Bladeguard Ancient in a list because I was 5 points short from buying a Lt.

[Minsc]

3 hours ago, CCE1981 said:

Lol, I actually am using the Bladeguard Ancient in a list because I was 5 points short from buying a Lt.

In the end, I might actually end up doing something similar. 

In a vacuum, the Lt. is more likely than not the superior choice over the BG Ancient most of the time, but in the case with Adrax Agatone (specifically), the value of the Lt. is lessened while the value of the Ancient is increased: Lethal Hits from the Lt. isn't as important when you're having re-roll to wound from Adrax, and having +1 OC from the Ancient can have a bigger impact due to Adrax halving the OC of the engaged enemy. 

I'll make a list and if I need to free up ~20pts, the Lt. getting "demoted" to an Ancient will be the first thing that happens. Maybe the Ancient will actually see battle after all these years on the shelf after all.

[CCE1981]

I dropped a list a fee days ago, using Adrax attached to a 6- man squad of Bladeguard and the Bladeguard Ancient with Champion of Humanity sharing a ride with He’stan, Company Heroes and a Lt. with Forged in Battle.  Figured He’stans groups hangs back on a central objective while Adrax and his group aggressively negotiates control of an opponents.

[Minsc]

15 hours ago, CCE1981 said:

I dropped a list a fee days ago, using Adrax attached to a 6- man squad of Bladeguard and the Bladeguard Ancient with Champion of Humanity sharing a ride with He’stan, Company Heroes and a Lt. with Forged in Battle.  Figured He’stans groups hangs back on a central objective while Adrax and his group aggressively negotiates control of an opponents.

Finished tweaking my list now, and I even ended up borrowing this idea of yours as well, so cheers for that. 

- Adrax Agatone 

- Vulkan He'stan

- BG Ancient /w Forged in Battle 

- JP Captain /w Champion of Humanity

- Impulsor /w Shield Dome (IM)

- Impulsor /w Shield Dome (IM)

- 6x Bladeguard Veterans (Adrax + Ancient)

- 4x Company Heroes (Vulkan)
- 10x Vanguard Veterans /w Handflamers (Captain)

- 6x Aggressors /w Flamestorm Gauntlets

- 10x Infernus Marines
- 5x Infernus Marines

- 5x Infernus Marines

- Land Raider Redeemer (BGV + CH)

- Repulsor (IM)
 

1995 pts on the nose and the theme seems evident (Torrent-spamm).
Ironically, I couldn't bring a Lt. instead of the Ancient even if I wanted to - not enough points, hehe.